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Quote Yes, it would capsize and sink 
. The point of the this was not whether a localized flood (no evidence whatsover of a “worldwide” flood) did not occur, just that each made a claim that God protected one family (or person). I just finished watching a nova special on the scablands of the U.S. Forever everyone believed that they were caused by millions of years of slow erosion. It was “heresy” when someone suggested it was caused by water. Decades later, we know it was caused by a lake being damned by a glacier and the lake grew and when it broke, the water created the apparent “evidence” for what the geologists forever believed was millions of years of work. Such “evidence” was caused very quickly. We now know that this process actually happened many times over some 20,000 years or so. But my point is, what was forever believed to have been millions of years of slow erosion, can be created very very quickly, by water.
Quote David, That post was a hard read. Do you have a source? I know the semitic cultures shared similar flood stories, but I'd be interested in the details of others you mentioned.
I know. I'll go back and edit it.Just curious, but if you DON'T believe in evolution, how big would the ark need to be to fit 2 of every unclean animal of the earth as well as 7 of every clean one? With that many animals cooped up together for 40 days, either Noah's family were on 24 hour pooper-scooper patrol or they spent the 40 days retching over the side of the ark.
Also, what of the sea organisms that require a certain concentration of salt water to survive? With the whol earth flooded for 40 days, the salt water concentration was surely very diluted.
From How Many Species Inhabit Our Planet?
- If we were to divide all animals into two groups, invertebrates and vertebrates, an estimated 97% of all species would be invertebrates. Invertebrates include animals that lack backbones such as sponges, cnidarians, molluscs, platyhelminths, annelids, arthropods, and insects, to name just a few. Of all invertebrates, the insects are by far the most numerous. There are so many species of insects that scientists have yet to discover them all, let alone name or count them. Estimates of the total number of insect fall in the range of 1 to 30 million. The vertebrates represent the remaining 3% of all species and include species that are the most familiar to us: amphibians, reptiles, birds, fishes, mammals.
Quote Just curious, but if you DON'T believe in evolution, how big would the ark need to be to fit 2 of every unclean animal of the earth as well as 7 of every clean one? kejonn, did you know that all the variety of “dogs” we have today came from one “kind” of animal, the wolf?
The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.
The ark had about 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) of usable space—ample for the passenger list.These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.
Quote With that many animals cooped up together for 40 days, either Noah's family were on 24 hour pooper-scooper patrol or they spent the 40 days retching over the side of the ark.
Of course, if you look at the account, it was more than 40 days.After a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.—Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14.
From the same link above, there are
- Reptiles: 7,984 species
- Birds: 9,000-10,000 species
- Mammals: 4,475-5,000 species
- Arachnids: 75,500 species
- Insects: 1-30 million+ species
Leaving several more of the list, I imagine the ark was the size of Texas or Alaska?
Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2008,16:21) Quote Just curious, but if you DON'T believe in evolution, how big would the ark need to be to fit 2 of every unclean animal of the earth as well as 7 of every clean one? kejonn, did you know that all the variety of “dogs” we have today came from one “kind” of animal, the wolf?
The “kinds” of animals selected had reference to the clear-cut and unalterable boundaries or limits set by the Creator, within which boundaries creatures are capable of breeding “according to their kinds.” It has been estimated by some that the hundreds of thousands of species of animals today could be reduced to a comparatively few family “kinds”—the horse kind and the cow kind, to mention but two. The breeding boundaries according to “kind” established by Jehovah were not and could not be crossed. With this in mind some investigators have said that, had there been as few as 43 “kinds” of mammals, 74 “kinds” of birds, and 10 “kinds” of reptiles in the ark, they could have produced the variety of species known today. Others have been more liberal in estimating that 72 “kinds” of quadrupeds and less than 200 bird “kinds” were all that were required. That the great variety of animal life known today could have come from inbreeding within so few “kinds” following the Flood is proved by the endless variety of humankind—short, tall, fat, thin, with countless variations in the color of hair, eyes, and skin—all of whom sprang from the one family of Noah.
The ark had about 40,000 cu m (1,400,000 cu ft) of usable space—ample for the passenger list.These estimates may seem too restrictive to some, especially since such sources as The Encyclopedia Americana indicate that there are upwards of 1,300,000 species of animals. (1977, Vol. 1, pp. 859-873) However, over 60 percent of these are insects. Breaking these figures down further, of the 24,000 amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals, 10,000 are birds, 9,000 are reptiles and amphibians, many of which could have survived outside the ark, and only 5,000 are mammals, including whales and porpoises, which would have also remained outside the ark. Other researchers estimate that there are only about 290 species of land mammals larger than sheep and about 1,360 smaller than rats. (The Deluge Story in Stone, by B. C. Nelson, 1949, p. 156; The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, by A. M. Rehwinkel, 1957, p. 69) So, even if estimates are based on these expanded figures, the ark could easily have accommodated a pair of all these animals.
Quote With that many animals cooped up together for 40 days, either Noah's family were on 24 hour pooper-scooper patrol or they spent the 40 days retching over the side of the ark.
Of course, if you look at the account, it was more than 40 days.After a year and ten days from the time the Deluge began, the door again was opened and all aboard disembarked.—Ge 7:11; 8:4, 14.
The you do believe in darwin to some extent?Quote If we were to divide all animals into two groups, invertebrates and vertebrates, an estimated 97% of all species would be invertebrates. Invertebrates include animals that lack backbones such as sponges, cnidarians, molluscs, platyhelminths, annelids, arthropods, and insects, to name just a few. Of all invertebrates, the insects are by far the most numerous. There are so many species of insects that scientists have yet to discover them all, let alone name or count them. Estimates of the total number of insect fall in the range of 1 to 30 million. The vertebrates represent the remaining 3% of all species and include species that are the most familiar to us: amphibians, reptiles, birds, fishes, mammals. Yes, and there's some 6 billion people on our planet, TODAY. And they're all very diverse as well. There weren't that many people back then. You're thinking of today. Think of then.
Quote The you do believe in darwin to some extent? I believe that there is a variety of shapes and sizes between each “kind” of animal. The wolf (dog) can become a variety of dogs. But adding an extra toe to a horse or looking at smaller sized horses is not proof of evolution from one species into another. It's proof of diversity.
Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2008,16:23) Quote If we were to divide all animals into two groups, invertebrates and vertebrates, an estimated 97% of all species would be invertebrates. Invertebrates include animals that lack backbones such as sponges, cnidarians, molluscs, platyhelminths, annelids, arthropods, and insects, to name just a few. Of all invertebrates, the insects are by far the most numerous. There are so many species of insects that scientists have yet to discover them all, let alone name or count them. Estimates of the total number of insect fall in the range of 1 to 30 million. The vertebrates represent the remaining 3% of all species and include species that are the most familiar to us: amphibians, reptiles, birds, fishes, mammals. Yes, and there's some 6 billion people on our planet, TODAY. And they're all very diverse as well. There weren't that many people back then. You're thinking of today. Think of then.
Diverse, but still people. The level of diversity across species is much greater than among humans.Any kangaroos on board?
And what happened to the the land plants of the time? Trees, shrubs, grass…all submerged for 150 days (yeah not 40, just thinking of the rain). None of the plant life could have made it that long.
- Gen 7:4 “For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot out from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.”
If “every living thing” that was not on the ark was killed, then that means that all of the fish and sea creatures died. That would inlcude amphibians. So why do we have those today?
Saw this recently:
Q: “Did all aquatic animals also die in Noah's flood?”
A: “No, they suffocated in Noah's ark!”
Hi KJ,
When you come across difficulties in the bible do you immediately assume it is untrue?
Would you like everyone to be like you in this regard?Not necessarily untrue for those who wrote such things. It was likely a legend passed down and the writers were filling in the gaps. Plus, the “world” was much smaller for primitive man. If an area the size of Texas (or even smaller?) flooded, then that might have been their view of the “world”.
As more and more scientific and archeological findings show that the various stories of the bible are highly inplausible — or even impossible — then people will begin to look at the bible more metaphorically than literally. That should have happened long ago because people who have been led to believe in taking the bible literally get ticked off when they find out stuff isn't true, or at least highly embellished.
As far as wishing more people were like me, I can say “yes” to some extent. The exclusivity that fundamentalism creates is very spiritually bigoted and tries to claim God for only a certain few.
The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states:
“Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.
Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2008,18:18) The Egyptians, the Greeks, the Chinese, the Druids of Britain, the Polynesians, the Eskimos and Greenlanders, the Africans, the Hindus, and the American Indians—all of these have their Flood stories. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (Vol. 2, p. 319) states:
“Flood stories have been discovered among nearly all nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on all the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270 . . . The universality of the flood accounts is usually taken as evidence for the universal destruction of humanity by a flood and the spread of the human race from one locale and even from one family. Though the traditions may not all refer to the same flood, apparently the vast majority do. The assertion that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in vindicating the Bible, and they are filled with fanciful and pagan elements evidently the result of transmission for extended periods of time in a pagan society. Moreover, some of the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.”—Edited by G. Bromiley, 1982.
Any of those various 270 stories to back this up? One writer saying as much is not really evidence of any type.Kejonn, start by googling any of these:
Australia – Kurnai
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBabylon – Berossus’ account
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBabylon – Gilgamesh epic
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBolivia – Chiriguano
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselBorneo – Sea Dayak
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBurma – Singpho
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCanada – Cree
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCanada – Montagnais
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselChina – Lolo
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCuba – original natives
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselEast Africa – Masai
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselEgypt – Book of the Dead
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselFiji – Walavu-levu tradition
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselFrench Polynesia – Raïatéa
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedGreece – Lucian’s account
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselGuyana – Macushi
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselIceland – Eddas
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Andaman Islands
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Bhil
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Kamar
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIran – Zend-Avesta
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedItaly – Ovid’s poetry
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMalay Peninsula – Jakun
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMexico – Codex Chimalpopoca
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMexico – Huichol
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselNew Zealand – Maori
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselPeru – Indians of Huarochirí
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedRussia – Vogul
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Alaska) – Kolusches
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Alaska) – Tlingit
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Arizona) – Papago
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Hawaii) – legend of Nu-u
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselVanuatu – Melanesians
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselVietnam – Bahnar
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselWales – Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselIn times past, certain primitive people (in Australia, Egypt, Fiji, Society Islands, Peru, Mexico, and other places) preserved a possible remnant of these traditions about the Flood by observing in November a ‘Feast of Ancestors’ or a ‘Festival of the Dead.’ Such customs reflected a memory of the destruction caused by the Deluge.
According to the book Life and Work at the Great Pyramid, the festival in Mexico was held on the 17th of November because they “had a tradition that at that time the world had been previously destroyed; and they dreaded lest a similar catastrophe would, at the end of a cycle, annihilate the human race.” (By Professor C. Piazzi Smyth, Edinburgh, 1867, Vol. II, pp. 390, 391)
Notes the book The Worship of the Dead: “This festival [of the dead] is . . . held by all on or about the very day on which, according to the Mosaic account, the Deluge took place, viz., the seventeenth day of the second month—the month nearly corresponding with our November.” (By J. Garnier, London, 1904, p. 4)Interestingly, the Bible reports that the Flood began “in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month.” (Ge 7:11) That “second month” corresponds to the latter part of October and the first part of November on our calendar.
Anthropologists have collected as many as 270 flood legends from nearly all tribes and nations.
“The flood story is found throughout the world,” says scholar Claus Westermann. “Like the creation narrative, it is part of our basic cultural heritage. It is truly astonishing: everywhere on earth we find stories of a great primeval flood.” The explanation? Says expositor Enrico Galbiati: “The insistent presence of a flood tradition in different and widely separated peoples is a sign of the historical reality of the fact that lies at the base of such traditions.”
Credible Details
Consider first the record made by Moses in the book of Genesis. There, we find the specific year, month, and day when the torrent began, when the ark came to rest, and when the earth dried off. (Genesis 7:11; 8:4, 13, 14) Although specific dates are not always recorded elsewhere in Genesis, these dates emphasize the fact that Moses viewed the Flood as a real event. Contrast the Bible’s ring of truth with the classic opening words of many a fable, “Once upon a time . . .”
As another example, consider the ark itself. The Bible describes a vessel about 437 feet long, with a length-to-height ratio of 10 to 1 and a length-to-width ratio of 6 to 1. (Genesis 6:15) Now, Noah was no shipbuilder. And remember, this was more than 4,000 years ago! Yet, the ark was built with proportions that were ideal for its function as a floating container. In fact, modern naval architects have found similar ratios suitable for structural integrity and stability on the open seas. Although the Bible does not specify the exact length of time Noah spent building the ark, the account allows for construction that took 50 or 60 years. (Genesis 5:32; 7:6) These factors stand in stark contrast with the well-known story found in the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. The epic describes a massive, ungainly cube some 200 feet [60 m] on each side that was built in only seven days. Unlike that Babylonian legend, the Bible’s Deluge account engenders confidence in its accuracy.
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