- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 20 2008,19:50) Hi Stu,
They will recognise the Author.
They knew the love of God in the arms of His Son.
Yes god should conform to earthly standards. He was invented by us so should behave no differently.Stuart
Actually, the behavior attributed to God in the OT likely did reflect earthly standards at the time. Yahweh was likely viewed as a super Jew.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 20 2008,23:35) Actually, the behavior attributed to God in the OT likely did reflect earthly standards at the time. Yahweh was likely viewed as a super Jew.
As you have demonstrated the evolution from a deity that made humans in his own form and had to ask what was going on into one that is omnipotent, omniscient and possibly three-headed is a perfect example of artificial selection by humans.
Cats, dogs and gods arise by the same mechanism.Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,05:53) Actually, those who believe that God is above petty human emotions such as anger and wrath and the desired to be worshiped likely have a stronger foundation than those who accept that He has many of these same selfish human emotions.
God made man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind a free will and emotions. The last man was made a living giving spirit.God anger is “righteous indignation”. He is angry with the wicked because he does not want to have to destroy them.
Quote 2 Peter 3:9.The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish , but that all should come to repentance.
10.But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat , the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up .Quote (942767 @ Mar. 21 2008,16:24) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 19 2008,05:53) Actually, those who believe that God is above petty human emotions such as anger and wrath and the desired to be worshiped likely have a stronger foundation than those who accept that He has many of these same selfish human emotions.
God made man in his own image. The first man was made a living soul with a mind a free will and emotions. The last man was made a living giving spirit.
Rather, the bible is the record of man making God in his image, not vice versa. We see that the God of the OT had many human characteristics, including several bad traits, such as being a sexist and racist.Quote God anger is “righteous indignation”. He is angry with the wicked because he does not want to have to destroy them.
And yet He still does according to the OT. You'll have to make better excuses than that.I thought this was as good as any thread since it brings up the OT.
There are many clues out there and several scholars who believe that the first 5 books of the bible were written either during the Babylonian exile or slightly before. Whatever the case, there may be some other evidence that certain stories were influenced from the Babylonians (and later the Persians).
One of the oldest pieces of evidence of a flood myth has been dated back to around 17 BCE. It is a Babylonian cuneiform tablet with the Epic of Atrahasis. From Cuneiform tablet with Atrahasis epic
- This does not prove a perfect solution, as the humans reproduce and their noise disturbs Enlil's sleep. He decides to destroy them with plague, famine, drought and finally a flood. However, each time Enki instructs one of the humans, Atrahasis, to survive the disasters. The god gives Atrahasis seven days warning of the flood, and he builds a boat, loads it with his possessions, animals and birds. He is subsequently saved while the rest of humankind is destroyed. However, the gods are unhappy as they no longer receive the offerings they used to. There is a gap in the text at this point but it does end with Atrahasis making an offering and Enlil accepting the existence and usefulness of humans.
Sound familiar?
Next there is the Flood Tablet dating back to around 7th century BCE from Ninevah (remember Ninevah folks?). Recall that the Babylonian exile took place around 100 years later, so the tablet predates the exile by a century. From The Flood Tablet, relating part of the Epic of Gilgamesh
- This, the eleventh tablet of the epic, describes the meeting of Gilgamesh with Utnapishtim. Like Noah in the Hebrew Bible, Utnapishtim had been forewarned of a plan by the gods to send a great flood. He built a boat and loaded it with everything he could find. Utnapishtim survived the flood for six days while mankind was destroyed, before landing on a mountain called Nimush. He released a dove and a swallow but they did not find dry land to rest on, and returned. Finally a raven that he released did not return, showing that the waters must have receded.
As you can see, the Noah flood story has elements from BOTH flood stories, both Babylonian! From the Atrahasis version comes loading the boat with animals and an offering when Atrahasis gets off the boat. Also, just as in Gen 8:21, God sees the usefulness of humans.
From the Gilgamesh story comes the story of landing on a mountain and sending out birds, but notice that the order is reversed on the birds. A dove, then a swallow, then a raven. In the biblical version, it is a dove sent out the 2nd time that does not return. Both stories relate the sending of a bird three times.
From Ancient History Sourcebook: The Legend of Sargon of Akkadê, c. 2300 BCE:
- 1. Sargon, the mighty king, king of Akkadê am I,
2. My mother was lowly; my father I did not know;
3. The brother of my father dwelt in the mountain.
4. My city is Azupiranu, which is situated on the bank of the Purattu [Euphrates],
5. My lowly mother conceived me, in secret she brought me forth.
6. She placed me in a basket of reeds, she closed my entrance with bitumen,
7. She cast me upon the rivers which did not overflow me.
8. The river carried me, it brought me to Akki, the irrigator.
9. Akki, the irrigator, in the goodness of his heart lifted me out,
10. Akki, the irrigator, as his own son brought me up;
11. Akki, the irrigator, as his gardener appointed me.
12. When I was a gardener the goddess Ishtar loved me,
13. And for four years I ruled the kingdom.
14. The black-headed peoples I ruled, I governed;Know of anyone else who was placed in a basket and floated downriver? King Sargon of Agade lived near the end of the third millennium BCE.
- Exo 2:1 Now a man from the house of Levi went and married a daughter of Levi.
Exo 2:2 The woman conceived and bore a son; and when she saw that he was beautiful, she hid him for three months.
Exo 2:3 But when she could hide him no longer, she got him a wicker basket and covered it over with tar and pitch. Then she put the child into it and set it among the reeds by the bank of the Nile.
Exo 2:4 His sister stood at a distance to find out what would happen to him.
Exo 2:5 The daughter of Pharaoh came down to bathe at the Nile, with her maidens walking alongside the Nile; and she saw the basket among the reeds and sent her maid, and she brought it to her.
Exo 2:6 When she opened it, she saw the child, and behold, the boy was crying. And she had pity on him and said, “This is one of the Hebrews' children.”Another potentially influential work for the OT was the Code of Hammurabi. This code was a set of laws composed by Hammurabi who lived around 1800 BCE. Moses was supposed to have lived around 1300 BCE.
If you read the Code, which is available in several places on the Web (http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/221ham.html is one), you will soon find that the mitzvot (commands) given in the Torah are not really similar. I see this as something we should see in our own modern world: that as time passes, morality evolves. The penalties for breaking certain laws in the Code were much more harsh. Plus, the Torah seemed to have more spiritual implications.
The very striking similarity is how the laws were received. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammurabi
- A carving at the top of the stele portrays Hammurabi receiving the laws from the god Shamash, and the preface states that Hammurabi was chosen by the gods of his people to bring the laws to them. Parallels to this divine inspiration for laws can be seen in the laws given to Moses for the ancient Hebrews. Similar codes of law were created in several nearby civilizations, including the earlier neo-Sumerian example of Ur-Nammu's code, and the later Hittite code of laws.
Also note that the Code is actually preserved on a stone stele, just as the 10 Commandments were said to be written on stone!
Also, from another Wikipedia entry at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi
- The Code of Hammurabi was one of several sets of laws in the Ancient Near East. Most of these codes come from similar cultures and racial groups in a relatively small geographical area, and they have passages which resemble each other. The earlier code of Ur-Nammu, of the Ur-III dynasty (21st century BC), the Hittite code of laws (ca. 1300 BC), and Mosaic Law (traditionally ca. 1400 BC under Moses), all contain statutes that bear at least passing resemblance to those in the Code of Hammurabi and other codices from the same geographic area.
Quote As you can see, the Noah flood story has elements from BOTH flood stories, both Babylonian! From the Atrahasis version comes loading the boat with animals and an offering when Atrahasis gets off the boat. Also, just as in Gen 8:21, God sees the usefulness of humans. From the Gilgamesh story comes the story of landing on a mountain and sending out birds, but notice that the order is reversed on the birds. A dove, then a swallow, then a raven. In the biblical version, it is a dove sent out the 2nd time that does not return. Both stories relate the sending of a bird three times.
The fact that there are hundreds (not just this one) stories of a worldwide flood (with varying degrees of similarity) strongly indicate that they do have a common source. That they are based on one common thing.
Concerning gilgamesh, this very old legend is somewhat similar to the Biblical account of the Flood. However, it lacks the graphic details and simplicity of the Bible account, and it does not give reasonable dimensions for the ark nor supply the time period indicated in the Scriptures. For instance, the Epic of Gilgamesh said that the storm lasted six days and six nights, whereas the Bible says that “the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights”—a continuing heavy rain that finally covered the entire globe with water.—Genesis 7:12.
In the story of gilgamesh, wasn't the boat cube shaped?
Since this is God's portrayal in the OT, I guess we should discuss that, in relation to gilgamesh.
It is the story of the exploits of Gilgamesh, described as being two-thirds god and one-third man, or a demigod. One version of the epic states: “In Uruk he built walls, a great rampart, and the temple of blessed Eanna for the god of the firmament Anu, and for Ishtar the goddess of love . . . , our lady of love and war.”
(There's that “ishtar” again.)Gilgamesh was not exactly a pleasant creature to have around. The inhabitants of Uruk complained to the gods: “His lust leaves no virgin to her lover, neither the warrior’s daughter nor the wife of the noble.”
What action did the gods take in response to the people’s protest? The goddess Aruru created Enkidu to be the human rival of Gilgamesh. However, instead of being enemies, they became close friends. In the course of the epic, Enkidu died. Shattered, Gilgamesh cried: : “When I die, shall I not be like Enkidu? Woe has entered my belly. Fearing death, I roam over the steppe.”
He wanted the secret of immortality and set out to find Utnapishtim, the deluge survivor who had been given immortality with the gods.Gilgamesh eventually finds Utnapishtim, who tells him the story of the flood. As found in Epic tablet XI, known as the Flood Tablet, Utnapishtim recounts instructions given to him concerning the flood: “Tear down (this) house, build a ship! Give up possessions, seek thou life. . . . Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.” Utnapishtim cannot bestow immortality upon Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh, disappointed, returns home to Uruk. The account concludes with his death. The overall message of the epic is the sadness and frustration of death and the hereafter. Those ancient people did not find the God of truth and hope. However, the epic’s link to the Bible’s simple account of the pre-Flood era is quite evident.
Yes, I found it. He built the ship as a huge cube 200 feet [60 m] on each side, with six floors. Do boats work if they're that shape?
The chinese word for “ship” basically means Eight people.
Interestingly, there were 8 people on Noah's ark.There are little hints of some major flood in most cultures, which they no doubt carried down from some common source.
Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2008,15:46) Quote As you can see, the Noah flood story has elements from BOTH flood stories, both Babylonian! From the Atrahasis version comes loading the boat with animals and an offering when Atrahasis gets off the boat. Also, just as in Gen 8:21, God sees the usefulness of humans. From the Gilgamesh story comes the story of landing on a mountain and sending out birds, but notice that the order is reversed on the birds. A dove, then a swallow, then a raven. In the biblical version, it is a dove sent out the 2nd time that does not return. Both stories relate the sending of a bird three times.
The fact that there are hundreds (not just this one) stories of a worldwide flood (with varying degrees of similarity) strongly indicate that they do have a common source. That they are based on one common thing.
Concerning gilgamesh, this very old legend is somewhat similar to the Biblical account of the Flood. However, it lacks the graphic details and simplicity of the Bible account, and it does not give reasonable dimensions for the ark nor supply the time period indicated in the Scriptures. For instance, the Epic of Gilgamesh said that the storm lasted six days and six nights, whereas the Bible says that “the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days and forty nights”—a continuing heavy rain that finally covered the entire globe with water.—Genesis 7:12.
In the story of gilgamesh, wasn't the boat cube shaped?
Yes, it would capsize and sink
. The point of the this was not whether a localized flood (no evidence whatsover of a “worldwide” flood) did not occur, just that each made a claim that God protected one family (or person).Such a cataclysm as the Deluge, which washed the whole world of that time out of existence, would never be forgotten by the survivors. They would talk about it to their children and their children’s children. For 500 years after the Deluge, Shem lived on to relate the event to many generations. He died only ten years before the birth of Jacob. Moses preserved the true account in Genesis. Sometime after the Flood, when God-defying people built the Tower of Babel, Jehovah confused their language and scattered them “over all the surface of the earth.” (Ge 11:9) It was only natural that these people took with them stories of the Flood and passed them on from father to son. The fact that there are not merely a few but perhaps hundreds of different stories about that great Deluge, and that such stories are found among the traditions of many primitive races the world over, is a strong proof that all these people had a common origin and that their early forefathers shared that Flood experience in common.
Flood Legends
Samples from six continents and the islands of the sea; hundreds of such legends are known
Australia – Kurnai
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBabylon – Berossus’ account
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBabylon – Gilgamesh epic
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBolivia – Chiriguano
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselBorneo – Sea Dayak
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselBurma – Singpho
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCanada – Cree
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCanada – Montagnais
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselChina – Lolo
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselCuba – original natives
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselEast Africa – Masai
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselEgypt – Book of the Dead
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselFiji – Walavu-levu tradition
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselFrench Polynesia – Raïatéa
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedGreece – Lucian’s account
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselGuyana – Macushi
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselIceland – Eddas
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Andaman Islands
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Bhil
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselIndia – Kamar
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselIran – Zend-Avesta
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedItaly – Ovid’s poetry
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMalay Peninsula – Jakun
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMexico – Codex Chimalpopoca
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselMexico – Huichol
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselNew Zealand – Maori
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselPeru – Indians of Huarochirí
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals SparedRussia – Vogul
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Alaska) – Kolusches
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Alaska) – Tlingit
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Arizona) – Papago
Destruction by Water
Warning Given
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselU.S.A. (Hawaii) – legend of Nu-u
Destruction by Water
Divine Cause
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselVanuatu – Melanesians
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselVietnam – Bahnar
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselWales – Dwyfan/Dwyfach legend
Destruction by Water
Humans Spared
Animals Spared
Preserved in a VesselHi,
Yes Satan is well prepared.
For every true thing he has ready a falsehood to offer.
Poor ignorant men who are not founded on rock must go with the flow.Quote (david @ Mar. 31 2008,15:53) Since this is God's portrayal in the OT, I guess we should discuss that, in relation to gilgamesh. It is the story of the exploits of Gilgamesh, described as being two-thirds god and one-third man, or a demigod. One version of the epic states: “In Uruk he built walls, a great rampart, and the temple of blessed Eanna for the god of the firmament Anu, and for Ishtar the goddess of love . . . , our lady of love and war.”
(There's that “ishtar” again.)Gilgamesh was not exactly a pleasant creature to have around. The inhabitants of Uruk complained to the gods: “His lust leaves no virgin to her lover, neither the warrior’s daughter nor the wife of the noble.”
What action did the gods take in response to the people’s protest? The goddess Aruru created Enkidu to be the human rival of Gilgamesh. However, instead of being enemies, they became close friends. In the course of the epic, Enkidu died. Shattered, Gilgamesh cried: : “When I die, shall I not be like Enkidu? Woe has entered my belly. Fearing death, I roam over the steppe.”
He wanted the secret of immortality and set out to find Utnapishtim, the deluge survivor who had been given immortality with the gods.Gilgamesh eventually finds Utnapishtim, who tells him the story of the flood. As found in Epic tablet XI, known as the Flood Tablet, Utnapishtim recounts instructions given to him concerning the flood: “Tear down (this) house, build a ship! Give up possessions, seek thou life. . . . Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.” Utnapishtim cannot bestow immortality upon Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh, disappointed, returns home to Uruk. The account concludes with his death. The overall message of the epic is the sadness and frustration of death and the hereafter. Those ancient people did not find the God of truth and hope. However, the epic’s link to the Bible’s simple account of the pre-Flood era is quite evident.
Yes, I found it. He built the ship as a huge cube 200 feet [60 m] on each side, with six floors. Do boats work if they're that shape?
The chinese word for “ship” basically means Eight people.
Interestingly, there were 8 people on Noah's ark.There are little hints of some major flood in most cultures, which they no doubt carried down from some common source.
I would agree with this. I never said Gilgamesh was a nice guy
. I think if you look on any ancient view of whatever god(s) were portrayed, you'd find that todays morals don't match those of ancient man. Well, at least in more civilized countries!Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,15:59) Hi,
Yes Satan is well prepared.
For every true thing he has ready a falsehood to offer.
Poor ignorant men who are not founded on rock must go with the flow.
I was waiting for someone to offer this excuse. Yes, “satan”, who seems to be more omniscient than the God of the bible, was able to look ot the future when the writers of the bible would use such stories and plly them to Jewish history. Thus he was able to “plant” similar events in other cultures prior to their occurance to the biblical figures.That crafty “satan”!
Hi KJ,
Yes his wiles are amazing.
So better to stand on the rock of truth.
The mists of confusion are a lonely place for some.David,
That post was a hard read. Do you have a source? I know the semitic cultures shared similar flood stories, but I'd be interested in the details of others you mentioned.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2008,16:05) Hi KJ,
Yes his wiles are amazing.
So better to stand on the rock of truth.
The mists of confusion are a lonely place for some.
Hey, did “satan” also go back in time and plant similarities between Jesus and others who came before him? Like virgin birth, death-rebirth cycles, followers believing for salvation, etc.?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
