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Kevin,
I always tell my kids when they are sick or hurt, “I wish it was me instead of you!”. That's what my Dad always said to me.
It is difficult to reconcile the “Father” of the OT with what we think a parent should be. Because the record of killing is so evident and out there – the bible believer's can only say that God is just and had good reasons for doing what he did. This is not good enough for me.
Quote Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, B'hai, Hindues, Taoists, agnostics, etc. will be thrown in the lake of fire for not believing — or ever even hearing of — the Christian bible? –kejonn
First, which Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc do you know of that haven't “even heard of the Christian Bible”?
Regardless, they will be given a chance to hear the good news of the kingdom. (Mat 24:14)
Quote It is his earth, and he has every right to decide who lives on it. That he has chosen not to make us like robots, I think is a good thing.
That he will remove those who are foolish enough to disregard their very maker is also the only just thing that can be done–for those who actually love God.
–david
Quote That's outrageous. IF God is so concerned about having men believe in His existence, he'd give us more evidence of such. I believe because I see enough, but others are more skeptical. –kejonn
He's not overly concerned with having men believe in his existence. He is concerned that we choose life, so that we may live.
But, regarding his existence:
ROMANS 1:18-20
“For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;”Quote So what proof does He give, flawed human texts?
Flawed human texts, or flawed human thinking that has been twisted and degenerated “in an unrighteous way”
The fact that the 66 Bible books written over 1600 years by 40 different writers of wildly various backgrounds wrote a book that has a theme, that agrees with itself, that doesn't contradict, despite great efforts to twist it into doing so, is testimony to the ridiculousness of your comment.Quote Where does this verse say you must believe in God to be “righteous”? It does not.
I didn't say it did. I mearly pointed out the severity and seriousness of both sides of the equation. What he offers is no little thing.Quote And you don't see the bible as yet another means others have manipulated people? The bible is full of such power. It has been used as a justification to kill and persecute like no other text in history.
I completly agree. Not sure what this has to do with anything. One man can use a knife to cut a cake. Another can stab a man.Quote Hogwash. Show me this concept without using the bible.
I don't think you get what we're doing here. I use the Bible. You attack it. If I state something, it's going to be Bible based thinking.Quote Quite. Your all for retribution it seems. Its a Christian thing. I know from experience. “God, why do they seem to be doing so well without you? When will they get their just reward for living outside of your will?” Whatever happened to “have mercy on me, a sinner?”
God is described as “patient” but for the sake of the righteous, for the sake of justice, there must be a limit. Otherwise, injustice and wickedness will rule as king forever.
Speaking of Babylon the Great (false religion) we are told she would be destroyed. And we are told why:
“Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”–rev 18:24
False religion is not only bloodguilty for the holy ones she has persecuted, but for “all” those who have been slaughtered on the earth.
Think of the wars and the hundreds of millions killed! Would WWI or II have been fought if the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church had said: “We are for God's kingdom govenment, not man's and like Jesus, we are 'no part of the world'” so we shall not lift up the sword.”
How different history would have been. Yet, Archbishop said: We have God on our side. And on the other side, a bishop said the same thing. Instead of teaching what the Bible says (that anyone killing his brother is not a child of God, or that you cannot say “I love God” and yet hate your brother) they have taught twisted falsehoods.
Throughout history, religion has been bloodguilty, for the great majority of slaughtered ones on the earth.Question:
Does God have a right to put an end to false religion?
Is this within his right?Or shall we just go on as we have?
Please attempt to actually answer the actual questions.
david
Quote (david @ April 30 2008,01:00) Quote Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, B'hai, Hindues, Taoists, agnostics, etc. will be thrown in the lake of fire for not believing — or ever even hearing of — the Christian bible? –kejonn
First, which Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, etc do you know of that haven't “even heard of the Christian Bible”?
Regardless, they will be given a chance to hear the good news of the kingdom. (Mat 24:14)
Really, so every person who has ever lived has heard the gospel? Interesting.Quote (david @ April 30 2008,01:21) Quote It is his earth, and he has every right to decide who lives on it. That he has chosen not to make us like robots, I think is a good thing.
That he will remove those who are foolish enough to disregard their very maker is also the only just thing that can be done–for those who actually love God.
–david
Quote That's outrageous. IF God is so concerned about having men believe in His existence, he'd give us more evidence of such. I believe because I see enough, but others are more skeptical. –kejonn
He's not overly concerned with having men believe in his existence. He is concerned that we choose life, so that we may live.
But, regarding his existence:
ROMANS 1:18-20
“For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are suppressing the truth in an unrighteous way, because what may be known about God is manifest among them, for God made it manifest to them. For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;”Quote So what proof does He give, flawed human texts?
Flawed human texts, or flawed human thinking that has been twisted and degenerated “in an unrighteous way”
The fact that the 66 Bible books written over 1600 years by 40 different writers of wildly various backgrounds wrote a book that has a theme, that agrees with itself, that doesn't contradict, despite great efforts to twist it into doing so, is testimony to the ridiculousness of your comment.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
Seriously david, the only people who agree with this are fundies. They have to believe this less they find themselves on the list of deconverts.
Quote Quote Where does this verse say you must believe in God to be “righteous”? It does not.
I didn't say it did. I mearly pointed out the severity and seriousness of both sides of the equation. What he offers is no little thing.Quote And you don't see the bible as yet another means others have manipulated people? The bible is full of such power. It has been used as a justification to kill and persecute like no other text in history.
I completly agree. Not sure what this has to do with anything. One man can use a knife to cut a cake. Another can stab a man.
Can a work of God be used for evil then? Are you sure it is from God? Or might it be from “satan”?Quote Quote Hogwash. Show me this concept without using the bible.
I don't think you get what we're doing here. I use the Bible. You attack it. If I state something, it's going to be Bible based thinking.
Exactly the response I expected.Quote Quote Quite. Your all for retribution it seems. Its a Christian thing. I know from experience. “God, why do they seem to be doing so well without you? When will they get their just reward for living outside of your will?” Whatever happened to “have mercy on me, a sinner?”
God is described as “patient” but for the sake of the righteous, for the sake of justice, there must be a limit. Otherwise, injustice and wickedness will rule as king forever.
Speaking of Babylon the Great (false religion) we are told she would be destroyed. And we are told why:
“Yes, in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”–rev 18:24
False religion is not only bloodguilty for the holy ones she has persecuted, but for “all” those who have been slaughtered on the earth.
Think of the wars and the hundreds of millions killed! Would WWI or II have been fought if the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church had said: “We are for God's kingdom govenment, not man's and like Jesus, we are 'no part of the world'” so we shall not lift up the sword.”
How different history would have been. Yet, Archbishop said: We have God on our side. And on the other side, a bishop said the same thing. Instead of teaching what the Bible says (that anyone killing his brother is not a child of God, or that you cannot say “I love God” and yet hate your brother) they have taught twisted falsehoods.
Throughout history, religion has been bloodguilty, for the great majority of slaughtered ones on the earth.
What chances do you think Christianity would have of being so widespread had it not been for the RCC? Where where the JWs back then?Quote Question:
Does God have a right to put an end to false religion?
Is this within his right?Or shall we just go on as we have?
Please attempt to actually answer the actual questions.
david
Did you know that Pentecostals are the fastest growing Christian group? Does this mean they are the “real deal”?Islam is growing. B'hai is growing.
JWs are barely keeping up with the population growth…Oh, and from http://www.jwfacts.com/index_files/statistics.htm:
- American studies show that Jehovah's Witnesses now have the highest turnover of any religion, as supported by Watchtower figures presented in this section.
From http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
- Jehovah's Witnes
ses have the lowest retention rate of any religious tradition. Only 37% of all those who say they were raised as Jehovah's Witnesses still identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses.So when is Yahweh going to put an end to false religion?
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 30 2008,09:52) Quote (Stu @ April 29 2008,12:24) Hi WhatIsTrue Quote Here's a question for you:
Do you think you are a member of a special club that is exempt from exhibiting any form of manners when interacting with strangers?
Indeed I have been very rude about the shower of lying charletans that call themselves creation ‘scientists’ and have been quite unpleasant to 94…. about his brutal views about his fellow humans to give two examples, but in what way have I been less than polite with you?Quote Bonus question:
Can you quote a single statement from any of my recent posts that would lead you to believe that I am of the opinion that God will condemn 2/3 of the population. (Hint: Questions are not statements. In the context of this forum, questions, more often than not, are tools to discover what the questionee, not the questioner, believes.)
Should I take it then that in response to my question you do not consider yourself a member of a club of 1/3 of humanity who are praying in the right manner to the right god?Stuart
Perhaps I am just being overly sensitive, but it seemed like you were jumping down my throat about condemnation for asking another person a few questions about his beliefs.In any case, I abandoned the belief in “hell” for all those who don't “get it right” in this life years ago. At present, I don't know exactly what I believe about life beyond the here and now, but I am keenly interested in the discussion.
I think in hindsight I am guilty of stamping on your subtlety.Stuart
Hi David
Quote He's not overly concerned with having men believe in his existence. He is concerned that we choose life, so that we may live.
In fact god is so “not overly concerned” that he does not even bother with a clear policy on non-believers:Declare them condemned?
Joh 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
Have them killed?
Deu 13:6-10 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you … Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die.
Shun them?
2 Cor 6:14-17 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? … Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord.
Love and be kind to them?
Lev 19:18, Mat 22:39, Mar 12:31, Luk 10:27, Rom 13:9-10, Gal 5:14, Jam 2:8 Love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 5:44, Luk 6:27 Love your enemies.
Mat 7:12, Luk 6:31Whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.Stuart
Quote (942767 @ April 30 2008,08:45) Cato,April wrote:[quote=942767,April 29 2008,11:33?<!–QuoteEnd]
Hi Cato, Tim, Mandy, Stu and if there are any others:I am not swayed by your opinion of God and of me because I have given you my understanding of God's motivation for destroying the children of the wicked. It is typical of mankind beginning with Adam to blame someone else rather than to take the responsibility for his own actions. Neither God nor I am very happy to see anyone destroyed. They the parents who supposedly loved their children then and now had and have the opportunity to repent. Children are the responsibility of the parents. The parents obviously did not love them enough to turn away from their wicked ways.
And so, now we have the gospel that is being preached through out the earth along with a warning of impending judgment. Would you like repent and come to God and have all of your sins forgiven, and learn to live according to the commandments that He has given us through my Lord Jesus so that you can teach your children also or would you rather go on complaining against God and you and your children end up being destroyed as well.
I am doing every thing that I can by sharing the gospel and whatever else God has put in my possession to let people know how wonderful and merciful God is. For the wages of sin is death, and the gift of God is eternal life in and through Christ Jesus God's only begotten Son and His Christ. It is your choice and with that choice comes the responsibility for your decision and how that may affect your children and any of your relationships for that matter.
Dear 942767,My sincere apologies if you in any way took my critiques as a personal attack, I really don't have an opinion of you as I really don't have enough data to form one.
That, to a certain extent, the raising of children is the responsibility of the parent is a reasonable one, however I can not see how you extrapolate this to implying God extends the punishment of the wicked onto their children. You say, “The parents obviously did not love them enough to turn away from their wicked ways.” Maybe so, but is that not the way of the so called wicked to be concerned only with self? For the truly evil, punishing others for their own crimes means nothing to them. So God evidently condones the punishment of a soul who's only crime was to be born to deficient, unloving parents? Sounds like that is making the children accountable for the parents. If children are the responsibility of the parent then perhaps the parents should be punished for their children's behaviour, not the reverse.
As far as the impending judgement, I worry less about obscure prophecy, and more about the more immediate case that I will face my own judgement today or tomorrow but certainly within the next 50 years or so. I repent daily and make no complaints to God.
As for you spreading the Gospel, good, just remember others have their own view of truth and may likewise feel a moral compulsion to disseminate their views also. As for my children, yes I feel God may indeed hold me accountable for how I have handled them and others for that matter, what I sincerely doubt is they will in turn be held accountable for my actions. It is not just, it is not logical, therefore I declare it is not of God.
Quote (942767 @ April 30 2008,08:45) Cato, you asked a question about why God had a chosen people. The calling was to Abraham and to his seed. God chose Abraham because God knew that He would be obedient.
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?Quote Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.In order for God to have a people for Himself, He must have those who will listen to His instruction. It is through His people that God is able to reach the rest of humanity. The Nation of Israel(I speak here of the Israel of God) then and now is to be an example to all of humanity. But the scripture states than not all of Abraham's children are his seed, but only those who walk the same faithfulness to God as did Abraham. And in the body of Christ, we are the seed of Abraham.
Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.Quote Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And so, today children of Christians and of the wicked die every day, and it is the parents who will be resurrected and will be judged in the second resurrection if they die prior to the coming of the Lord for the church. But there is a day of judgment coming when the door will be shut and there will be no more opportunity to preach the gospel and to warn anyone of this judgment.
Do you want to join me in doing all that we can to reach them or do you just want to go on complaining of God's injustice?
I know what I am going to do with you or without you.
God created all mankind so all are his people are they not? The wicked and good alike.As for judgement I believe we reap according to what we sowed in life, not what our parents did or did not.
As far as complaining, I have never complained about the Almighty's injustice, it is a contradiction. I rail against writings that portray him as such.
I am glad you have direction in your life, may it serve you well.
Quote (kejonn @ April 30 2008,15:41) Quote (942767 @ April 29 2008,18:16) Quote (kejonn @ April 30 2008,10:44) Quote (942767 @ April 29 2008,15:45) Neither God nor I am very happy to see anyone destroyed.
Deu 28:63 “Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in helping you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you, until you disappear from the land you are about to enter and occupy.
Hi KJ:Please read all of that scripture in context. God's motivation for allowing the Nation of Israel's enemies against them when they defiantly disobeyed His commandments was to get them to repent. This happened over and over again in the OT when Israel would disobey and then repent when God allowed their enemies to overtake them.
Ah, the plea to context. Many times that works. But the bible goes on record and claims Yahweh will find pleasure in destroying people.No context needed.
Ever heard a parent who said “This is going to hurt me more than it does you”? I have. But I never heard a loving parent say he/she would take pleasure in punishing a child.
Hi Kj:God's purpose in punishing someone is that they might repent so that He can bless them.
He knows that through disobedience to His commandments people are destroying themselves.
Quote (Cato @ May 01 2008,06:31) Quote (942767 @ April 30 2008,08:45) Cato, you asked a question about why God had a chosen people. The calling was to Abraham and to his seed. God chose Abraham because God knew that He would be obedient.
Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?Quote Gen 18:18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Gen 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.In order for God to have a people for Himself, He must have those who will listen to His instruction. It is through His people that God is able to reach the rest of humanity. The Nation of Israel(I speak here of the Israel of God) then and now is to be an example to all of humanity. But the scripture states than not all of Abraham's children are his seed, but only those who walk the same faithfulness to God as did Abraham. And in the body of Christ, we are the seed of Abraham.
Quote Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.Quote Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And so, today children of Christians and of the wicked die every day, and it is the parents who will be resurrected and will be judged in the second resurrection if they die prior to the coming of the Lord for the church. But there is a day of judgment coming when the door will be shut and there will be no more opportunity to preach the gospel and to warn anyone of this judgment.
Do you want to join me in doing all that we can to reach them or do you just want to go on complaining of God's injustice?
I know what I am going to do with you or without you.
God created all mankind so all are his people are they not? The wicked and good alike.As for judgement I believe we reap according to what we sowed in life, not what our parents did or did not.
As far as complaining, I have never complained about the Almighty's injustice, it is a contradiction. I rail against writings that portray him as such.
I am glad you have direction in your life, may it serve you well.
Hi Cato:We are all God's creatures in that yes, He created mankind, but no, we are not all His people unless we have been reconciled to Him, and are striving to obey His commandments.
Quote 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:28) Hi Kj: God's purpose in punishing someone is that they might repent so that He can bless them.
He knows that through disobedience to His commandments people are destroying themselves.
How can someone repent after they are destroyed? And do you obey the various commandments of Yahweh found in the Torah? If not, are you destroying yourself daily?Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:33) We are all God's creatures in that yes, He created mankind, but no, we are not all His people unless we have been reconciled to Him, and are striving to obey His commandments. Quote 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
If you are not living up to Yahweh's standards according to the Torah, how then do you determine righteousness?Quote (kejonn @ May 02 2008,04:37) Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:28) Hi Kj: God's purpose in punishing someone is that they might repent so that He can bless them.
He knows that through disobedience to His commandments people are destroying themselves.
How can someone repent after they are destroyed? And do you obey the various commandments of Yahweh found in the Torah? If not, are you destroying yourself daily?
Hi KJ:Please read the following scripture. It says bring them to naught.
Quote Deu 28:63 And it shall come to pass, [that] as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you TO DESTROY YOU, AND TO BRING YOU TO NAUGHT; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it. The remainder of the verse is what eventually happened in the Babylonian captivity.
Quote (kejonn @ May 02 2008,04:39) Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:33) We are all God's creatures in that yes, He created mankind, but no, we are not all His people unless we have been reconciled to Him, and are striving to obey His commandments. Quote 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
If you are not living up to Yahweh's standards according to the Torah, how then do you determine righteousness?
Hi KJ:Jesus fulfilled th Law, and we as born again Christians fulfill the Law in Him.
Quote Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Quote 2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey himQuote (942767 @ May 01 2008,21:29) Quote (kejonn @ May 02 2008,04:39) Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:33) We are all God's creatures in that yes, He created mankind, but no, we are not all His people unless we have been reconciled to Him, and are striving to obey His commandments. Quote 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
If you are not living up to Yahweh's standards according to the Torah, how then do you determine righteousness?
Hi KJ:Jesus fulfilled th Law, and we as born again Christians fulfill the Law in Him.
Quote Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Quote 2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.This means he did not do away with the Law but that he was the fulfillment. So the Law is still in effect. Time to pick up your OT and dust of the first five books.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Has heaven and earth passed away? Nope. Time to start living by the 613 mitzvot, 94. Else, you are certainly not “righteous”.
winner? And Paul ended the Law, which said follow, the Law?
Only one gift per purchase, valid only for one life, Knowing offcourse Christ could also only purchase for his own self?
Perhaps then, the heaven and the hell that it caused should in reality shortly pass away?kejonn Nobody is righteous, no not one. All fall short of the glory of God. So are you keeping the Sabbath then? If that is what you believe. I believe that we are under Christ's Blood and He has fulfilled all. He is our perfect sacrifice. Eternal Life is a free gift from God by faith in Christ Jesus. Not by our works so none can boast. He has foretold our works in Christ Jesus, so we will grow into what is all righteous. But we will never be completely like Jesus. He had God's Holy Spirit full strength. We are to strife tho with all our might.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (kejonn @ May 02 2008,15:04) Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,21:29) Quote (kejonn @ May 02 2008,04:39) Quote (942767 @ May 01 2008,08:33) We are all God's creatures in that yes, He created mankind, but no, we are not all His people unless we have been reconciled to Him, and are striving to obey His commandments. Quote 1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
If you are not living up to Yahweh's standards according to the Torah, how then do you determine righteousness?
Hi KJ:Jesus fulfilled th Law, and we as born again Christians fulfill the Law in Him.
Quote Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Quote 2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Quote Hbr 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Hbr 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Hbr 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.This means he did not do away with the Law but that he was the fulfillment. So the Law is still in effect. Time to pick up your OT and dust of the first five books.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Has heaven and earth passed away? Nope. Time to start living by the 613 mitzvot, 94. Else, you are certainly not “righteous”.
Hi KJ:
The below scriptures state that I am righteous.
Quote Rom 4:1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 ¶ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 [Saying], Blessed [are] they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed [is] the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Rom 4:9 ¶ [Cometh] this blessedness then upon the circumcision [only], or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
Rom 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
Rom 4:12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [he had] being [yet] uncircumcised.
Rom 4:13 ¶ For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
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