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Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:43) Bro 94, I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
Hi Mandy:It's your choice. I believe that you are looking a this all wrong. God is offering you forgiveness for your sins and a wonderful life if you want to come and learn the principles that he will teach you so that you and your children, if you will teach them, can be blessed.
Do you not believe that the wicked should be held accountable? God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.
God won't force you to accept His love for you (He has shown you that He love you in the person of Jesus, His Son and His Christ), and so, He is saying to you and all of humanity I love you, and you and others are saying “I don't want or need your love”.
No, not God's fault. Yours. It is your choice.
Quote (942767 @ April 27 2008,17:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:43) Bro 94, I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
Hi Mandy:It's your choice. I believe that you are looking a this all wrong. God is offering you forgiveness for your sins and a wonderful life if you want to come and learn the principles that he will teach you so that you and your children, if you will teach them, can be blessed.
Do you not believe that the wicked should be held accountable? God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.
Butting in…but when is Yahweh holding wicked people accountable, in the afterlife? In the meantime, does he do absolutely nothing here? He seemed to be very active in the OT, but even certain scholars recognized that Yahweh was less and less present as time passed in the OT.
Quote God won't force you to accept His love for you (He has shown you that He love you in the person of Jesus, His Son and His Christ), and so, He is saying to you and all of humanity I love you, and you and others are saying “I don't want or need your love”. No, not God's fault. Yours. It is your choice.
Why is it her fault? Because the only proof of Jesus is in a book with anonymous authors?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,16:32) My point is their proposed God is no different than the God of the OT, if God just sits in the heavens and does nothing when he has the power to. Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
I don't know. I've been thinking about this as I've read this debate.I think there is a difference.
The difference is that in the OT God seems responsible for and even demands that suffering take place.
Yes, God is responsible for his creation and there is always a divine reason behind whatever he does.
Do we know better than the creator as to how he should deal with “His” creation?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
He directs it, and appears to receive satisfaction from causing the death of many innocent women and children (not to mention scads of men and animals). To the common reader, this is horrific behavior for a supposed loving God/Creator.The Bible is a combination of only 66 books, with isolated incidents spanning 1000s of years. How does that even compare to the millions possibly billions of incidents of hideous crimes committed on humanity while God sits in the heavens watching and does nothing about it?
Forgetting the scriptures for a moment, what is Stu supposed to think if you tell him God is “all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving”, when he looks around at the evils in the world and sees God doing nothing about it?
God has given us some examples of his judgments. It’s not pretty, but I believe they are just as true as the staying of his patient and merciful hand of judgment in these last days of grace.
This whole discussion is proof of one thing, that no matter what you believe about God, the bottom line is “faith”.
There are many things about an infinite God that are not logical.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
In my mind there is a difference between demanding suffering and “watching” suffering with the power to stop it.Really, so a man standing by watching a little girl being raped and has a gun in his hand to stop it and doesn’t, is not just as guilty as the rapist?
So the Father of the girl shoots and kills the man for not doing anything and he is as wicked as the culprit?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
I don't want to use your example of a child rape, but I guess you are right in that it is a shocking picture that drives home a point.Its not only the little girl, it is all of humanity, the hunger, thirst, disease, poverty, pain and suffering all over the world.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
Don't you think there would be a difference between God ordering that a child be raped, and watching mankind do this as a result of it's inherit or self-imposed wickedness?No. Is the little girl guilty of self-imposed wickedness?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
Sure, God could put a stop to it if he *wanted* to (and I'm sure he wants to), but according to his own written Word, he has already put a stop to it by sending his Son as a sacrifice for sin. Does that make the suffering stop? No. But it certainly doesn't order more suffering to take place either. So, which is worse? If you had to choose, which one would you pick:A. God orders a child to be raped and killed.
B.A child is raped and killed due to inherit wickedness, but God sends a sacrifice for this wickedness.Your logic makes no sense here Mandy. Now you believe that God gave a human sacrifice? I do to. So think about that, God gave his only Son who did no wrong to be beaten beyond measure and nailed to a tree where he suffered for three hours in the most excruciating pain and he did nothing to stop it? But why do you call on this when I have heard you say that you question Jesus being the Messiah?
Besides, how does his death help the little girl while she is being raped and murdered?
There is no difference Mandy! God is an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God.
Therefore when God created everything and set everything into motion he knew about A and B. So he is responsible and the cause of his creation. But who will stand before God and accuse him of wrongdoing?
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9:18-21For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9
Therefore I accept that God can do what ever he wants with his creation just as a potter can do to the clay and the clay cannot speak against the potter. God sees the big picture. Since I believe God is Good then I accept that whatever he does or does not do is for the good of his creation.
Can I fully comprehend him? Do I fully understand him? No. Anybody that says they do needs to answer A and B.
Don’t you see Mandy that if you take your position of faith then you would have to accept A or B and therefore conclude that God is evil? Except to you B is a little less evil.
Because you have decided that you have to understand God purely by logic you cannot accept A, the “God of the OT”, therefore you have accepted B, the “God of the present”.
Why isn’t anyone admitting that we cannot fully understand an infinite God?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,18:19)
Maybe I'
m simplifying, and that is entirely possible. Either way, the child still suffers, but in my mind there is a difference between God ordering the suffering and it taking place due to mankind’s inherit or self-imposed wickedness.But what if God in his infinite wisdom sees suffering that passes anything that we could possibly conceive or understand, like when the imaginations of men’s hearts were only evil continually. Genesis 6:5
Could it not be perceived that God in his mercy or for reasons that we may not understand decides to put a stop to it for his own purposes?
It is not a question of whether A or B is the lesser of the two evils, it is the question, “could an all-loving, all-powerful, and all-knowing God do either, sit back and watch when he has the power to stop it, or command that punishment come to the ungodly and sinner?”
Since reality tells us B is happening before our eyes, then we have to decide is God evil in any capacity, or is it…..
C. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:9.
Surely we can accept this much of the OT as being true!
Therefore I resolve that I cannot even begin to comprehend the full nature of the big three Os of God in these matters.
Therefore I accept the inspired scriptures. For as surly as I can pick up a pen write down my thoughts, the infinite and all-powerful God can use men as his vessels to record his words. Blind faith they say.
Amen to that!
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom 11:33
Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Job 9:10
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
Blessings!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:43) Bro 94, I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
MandyThats frustrating. I had a school paper I had to finish in a hurry and lost 5 pages because of an error.
The worst part is I could not repeat what I said, it didnt flow as good.
What I do now is use MS Word and paste the quote in it and work from there, then paste it back in the forum.
It helps correct your spelling to.
Blessings
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 28 2008,16:29) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:43) Bro 94, I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
MandyThats frustrating. I had a school paper I had to finish in a hurry and lost 5 pages because of an error.
The worst part is I could not repeat what I said, it didnt flow as good.
What I do now is use MS Word and paste the quote in it and work from there, then paste it back in the forum.
It helps correct your spelling to.
Blessings
Oh! So that's your secret to your tidy posts!I read your previous post and will probably read it again later to make sure I got it all. But I get the over-all theme of it: God is higher than we are and his ways are beyond our searching out. I get that. I get that topics like we are trying to explore become exhausted very easily because there are no easy answers. Unfortunately, the written word is not as clear as it could have been. And unfortunately too many men got a hold of it and altered it.
Your guess is as good as mine. Your view sounds logical, Keith. So does Kevin's, Irene's and Cato's view. We all settle into what is comfortable and what we see as being “clear' to us. I always chuckle a bit when Irene says, “Scripture is so clear.” or something like that. This site alone tells us that scripture is anything but clear!
I never thought I would doubt the bible. I have had the same bible since I was 15 years old (it used to be my most prized possesion). I used to think that if there was a fire in our house it would be the one thing I would try to save. I don't feel that way anymore.
Quote It's your choice. I believe that you are looking a this all wrong. God is offering you forgiveness for your sins and a wonderful life if you want to come and learn the principles that he will teach you so that you and your children, if you will teach them, can be blessed.
Which “principles” should I teach my children, 94? The clear ones set out in the bible? The ones we debate here? You know, the doctrine that no one can decide on or have any unity with?Quote Do you not believe that the wicked should be held accountable? God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.
God parents differently than I do. He appears to like to kill his children for disobeying OR threaten them with plagues and fire. He makes women childless and withholds earth's blessings to feed the masses. Do you know what I do when my children disobey me? I certainly do not call them “wicked” and I certainly do not take their lives.Quote God won't force you to accept His love for you …..
This is true. However he will take my life if I do not obey him. Does this make sense to you or do you just accept it because it is written in the scriptures or because his ways are beyond searching out?Quote No, not God's fault. Yours. It is your choice.
This sentence kinda makes me chuckle a little bit. The reason is that because of the bible teachings we always assume that someone has to be at “fault”. Of course when we are speaking of God and man, it has to be man's fault. Because who are we to question God?Thanks for the chat, bro. Don't waste anymore time on me. Save your breath for breathing. It is not that I do not want to accept God's love because I do very much, it is that I do not accept the bible's tale of him – not completely anyway – and I guess that's my fault.
Hi WorshippingJesus
Quote Forgetting the scriptures for a moment, what is Stu supposed to think if you tell him God is “all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving”, when he looks around at the evils in the world and sees God doing nothing about it? That is a very good theological question (if there can be such a thing).
However, just for the record, I don't think there is any truth contained in the words 'god' and 'evil'. They are both empty platitudes used by people good at scratching their heads and waving their arms but ignorant of the true meaning of the word 'explain'.
Stuart
WJ,
God, in creating the universe and humanity as part of same, gave us life, sentience, reason, conscience and independence. He set up a universe of laws where cause and effect rules. I believe he had a plan and that plan will come to fruition in the course of time. That man would become self serving and often evil was of course foreseen. Your often repeated question is “Tell me Cato, did God know that genocide would happen to the Jews? Did he know that little girl would be raped and murdered? Do you think God sits in the heavens and rejoices over evil? Do you think his heart is filled with pain and grief?”
Yes I believe such could have been foreseen, would God then rejoice in evil, no. Do I think his heart is filled with pain and grief, actually, no. Evil as I pointed out before, comes from ignorance and spiritual immaturity. I belive that the nature of the universe is for things to evolve and humanity will do likewise. Look at how far we have come in so little time in technology; emotional and spiritual development is lagging behind the intellectual, but I am sure will catch up. Children develop physically and mentally before they do emotionally, perhaps it is the same with humanity. Likewise since I don't ascribe to the one life pass or fail test of faith, I think we will be given time to become what we have the potential to be rather then what we are. Evil doers will reap their own actions and will come to know this over time.
Scripture (especially the OT) tends to, like most theological works of early man to anthropomorphize God into something like itself, to be better understood. Thus we see the great unmanifest, manifest and show human emotions and failings.
So there is a difference between God letting his creation develop and grow (even with the pains involved therein for they are temporary) and having him involve himself as a player who does evil himself, not trusting his own plan or even regretting his own plans for creation.
Greetings WJ….I have noticed your focus on the brutality of mankind ,specifically the raping and murdering of children….What I fail to see is what you expect God to do,when the human race as a whole has taken his instruction book on how to live a peacefull,productive,happy life and cast it aside….And decided to do it our way….God says we are to kill those who murder….we decided to build an industry out of housing them and allowing to live…The pornography industry in this country is bigger than baseball,basketball and football combined and there is no wonder rape and the perversion that fosters it exists….Would you like God step in and stop it….It will not stop until we as human beings come to the realization that it is wrong and will not be tolerated….Unfortunately that will only come past when God is forced to stepin and prevent us from destroying ourselves…
Quote (Stu @ April 28 2008,20:23) Hi WorshippingJesus Quote Forgetting the scriptures for a moment, what is Stu supposed to think if you tell him God is “all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving”, when he looks around at the evils in the world and sees God doing nothing about it? That is a very good theological question (if there can be such a thing).
However, just for the record, I don't think there is any truth contained in the words 'god' and 'evil'. They are both empty platitudes used by people good at scratching their heads and waving their arms but ignorant of the true meaning of the word 'explain'.
Stuart
Stu…..You should thank God….he decided to let us do it our way….else we would all be smiten….Quote (theodorej @ April 28 2008,07:26) Greetings WJ….I have noticed your focus on the brutality of mankind ,specifically the raping and murdering of children….What I fail to see is what you expect God to do,when the human race as a whole has taken his instruction book on how to live a peacefull,productive,happy life and cast it aside….And decided to do it our way….God says we are to kill those who murder….we decided to build an industry out of housing them and allowing to live…The pornography industry in this country is bigger than baseball,basketball and football combined and there is no wonder rape and the perversion that fosters it exists….Would you like God step in and stop it….It will not stop until we as human beings come to the realization that it is wrong and will not be tolerated….Unfortunately that will only come past when God is forced to stepin and prevent us from destroying ourselves…
TJ,What benefits are laid out in the bible for those who follow the “instructions”? What consequences does it speak of for disobedience?
It is his earth, and he has every right to decide who lives on it.
That he has chosen not to make us like robots, I think is a good thing.
That he will remove those who are foolish enough to disregard their very maker is also the only just thing that can be done–for those who actually love God.
PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”He has put a choice before us. Everylasting life, without pain, aging, sickness, death, poverty, etc
ALL HE REQUIRES, all, he requires of us, is that we treat him like a father.
For those that are too small to recognize what he has put before us…. for those that are in such darkness, mentally alieanated from this, there seems little hope.
THROUGH ALL HISTORY, man has dominated man to his injury. We are horrible at ruling ourselves. We kill. We destroy. We take from the weak. We let people starve while we live in big homes. How many billions don't have clean water? This is a wicked system of things, twisted and ready to fall.
There are only two sides in this. Man rule or God rule. God's son cannot be bribed or paid off to act a certain way. There can be no corruption.And he has promised us more than we could ever imagine. Yes, those who look at this gift and say “so what” deserve all they get.
The creator of the earth has the right to choose who lives and who dies. And it is not random. He only requires that we search him out.For the sake of mankind, the billion people who don't have enough to eat, the people who are being slaughtered by the millions by other people, GOD MUST ACT AND STEP IN.
And yes, he will remove the wicked.
And yes, to not do so would be unjust for those who want to serve him.
And no, this is not wrong. As creator, he is the judge of what is right and wrong. And if your thought is out of line with his thinking, and you're ok with that, I can only imagine you will fade as the grass.
The reason we see all this suffering and this wickedness has been allowed, is that it was put to the question whether we needed God's rule. Whether or not man would be better off ruling himself. Whether any of God's creatures would want to serve him.
A lot of time would be needed to settle this. The answer is clear.Question: Is it just to leave the wicked continue to live?
Is it not just on God's part to warn the wicked that they will face the lake of fire? They are given every chance. They know what they face. It loving on God's part to do this. He could simply wipe them out. He warns them and let's them change. The choice is completely theirs, but he cannot forever allow this to continue. It is not right for those who want to live peaceably, for those who want to obey their creator.
Quote The Bible is a combination of only 66 books, with isolated incidents spanning 1000s of years. How does that even compare to the millions possibly billions of incidents of hideous crimes committed on humanity while God sits in the heavens watching and does nothing about it? –WJ
My comments to some of these posts are similar.
Do these ones get angry at judges when they put criminals away? Do they think: “Let each be free and do whatever he wishes”? Apparently, they do. Apparently,they know better than God.
How many million suffer each day at the hands of the wicked?
Yet, we can't let God do anything about that, because that would be wrong.
What?
All the suffering and injustices of the world have been by man's hands. If God has determined to step in and put an end to the wicked, those who don't want to know their father, then that is his (as the Creators) right.
What is more, it is the only just thing that can be done. The lake of fire symbolized complete destruction. The smoke of this destruction will symbolically last forever. (Obviously, it won't be smoking forever, just as the evidence of Sodom and Gomaorahs destruction didn't last forever, but it was spoken of in that way)
All memory of those who don't want to be on God's side, who unknowingly choose to side with the “opposer/resister” will be forgotten.
“Distress will not rise up a second time.”–Can't' remember which scripture.
No, God does not kill his children as He is falsely accused. He does correct His children as any parent who loves his children would do because he wants the best for them. I know that God loves me because He has corrected me many a time and every morning as part of my morning prayer I ask Him to correct me if I am teaching anything that is not His Word or doing anything that is not His will. I want Him to correct me quickly.
Quote Pro 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid.
(NIV)
Quote Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty: Quote Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.Quote 1Jo 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.Quote (Stu @ April 25 2008,06:08) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,01:29) Quote (Stu @ April 24 2008,05:43) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13) WJ wrote: Quote No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%. Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.
If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:
1. What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?
2. What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15?
Thanks for your time!
Hi WhatIsTrueYou must think you have membership of some privileged club to write this. By this logic your god will condemn 2/3 of the world population, including the ones who shout “God is great' in Arabic.
Stuart
Stuart,My questions were based on the premise in the quoted statement. I did not state anything about my personal beliefs whatsoever.
Don't jump to conclusions!
OK. Sorry about that.Do you think you are a member of a special club that is exempt from the 2/3 of the population that god will condemn?
What of those who shout “god is great” in Arabic?Stuart
No, and I don't know.Here's a question for you:
Do you think you are a member of a special club that is exempt from exhibiting any form of manners when interacting with strangers?
Bonus question:
Can you quote a single statement from any of my recent posts that would lead you to believe that I am of the opinion that God will condemn 2/3 of the population. (Hint: Questions are not statements. In the context of this forum, questions, more often than not, are tools to discover what the questionee, not the questioner, believes.)
Quote (942767 @ April 29 2008,09:21) No, God does not kill his children as He is falsely accused. He does correct His children as any parent who loves his children
So you agree, along with David, that those God had “ordered” to be killed were not his CHILDREN. And I suppose therefore it was justified? Hogwash. Innocent babies are counted among those who were ordered to be killed.No, your loyalty is to the dried ink – the written word. That's cool. It's up to you, your choice. But don't prentend you don't read the words and hear them. God has ordered people to be killed. These “people” make up his creation.
You don't have to respond me to me, bro. I'm just making a few comments here. I'm not trying to tick you off or anything, I just find it so curious how you can read what God does and then just blow it off. Perhaps these ones that God ordered to be killed deserved it…..after all they were “wicked”. But pray tell who created wickedness if it wasn't God? God created everything or allowed it to be. Who put that dang tree in the garden in the first place?
Quote (kejonn @ April 28 2008,13:51) Quote (942767 @ April 27 2008,17:00) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 28 2008,09:43) Bro 94, I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
Hi Mandy:It's your choice. I believe that you are looking a this all wrong. God is offering you forgiveness for your sins and a wonderful life if you want to come and learn the principles that he will teach you so that you and your children, if you will teach them, can be blessed.
Do you not believe that the wicked should be held accountable? God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice.
Butting in…but when is Yahweh holding wicked people accountable, in the afterlife? In the meantime, does he do absolutely nothing here? He seemed to be very active in the OT, but even certain scholars recognized that Yahweh was less and less present as time passed in the OT.
Quote God won't force you to accept His love for you (He has shown you that He love you in the person of Jesus, His Son and His Christ), and so, He is saying to you and all of humanity I love you, and you and others are saying “I don't want or need your love”. No, not God's fault. Yours. It is your choice.
Why is it her fault? Because the only proof of Jesus is in a book with anonymous authors?
Hi KJ;I said that I did not intend to answer any more of your posts, but I would really like to do what I can to answer your questions as best that I can by giving you my understanding.
You ask:
Quote Butting in…but when is Yahweh holding wicked people accountable, in the afterlife? In the meantime, does he do absolutely nothing here? He seemed to be very active in the OT, but even certain scholars recognized that Yahweh was less and less present as time passed in the OT. I have already answered when God will hold the wicked of the NT era who do not repent accountable, but I will restate this for you. Those who are alive at the coming of the Lord for the church will be judged by the seven last plagues. Those in the NT era who have died in their sins prior to the coming of the Lord for the church will be resurrected in the second resurrection and will be judged according to their works. This is called the second death which is eternal separation from God.
Jesus died the first death or spiritual separation for all of humanity, and so, the judgment for those who come to God through Him is not guilty.
We who are born again Christians are members of the body of Christ and we are subjected to God through our Lord Jesus. It is through us that God is doing what he can about the wickedness in the earth at the present time.
The gospel is being preached to every one who will hear and with that the warning that there is a day of judgment coming.
Through the body of Christ God is doing what He can to relieve the oppressed from which some of the wickedness stems. More needs to be done, but it is our responsibility to do this in obedience to God.Law enforcement is also seen as ministers of God.
Quote Rom 13:1 ¶ Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.And you say:
Quote No, not God's fault. Yours. It is your choice.
Why is it her fault? Because the only proof of Jesus is in a book with anonymous authors?[/QUOTE]Wrong, the proof is in the pudding:
Quote Jhn 13:35 By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Quote Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Quote Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.Quote 1Jo 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.
1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.We have spoken already of prophecies like Isaiah 53 which you and others may deny that it relates to Jesus, but I know these scriptures are about Him.
Quote (theodorej @ April 29 2008,00:34) Quote (Stu @ April 28 2008,20:23) Hi WorshippingJesus Quote Forgetting the scriptures for a moment, what is Stu supposed to think if you tell him God is “all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving”, when he looks around at the evils in the world and sees God doing nothing about it? That is a very good theological question (if there can be such a thing).
However, just for the record, I don't think there is any truth contained in the words 'god' and 'evil'. They are both empty platitudes used by people good at scratching their heads and waving their arms but ignorant of the true meaning of the word 'explain'.
Stuart
Stu…..You should thank God….he decided to let us do it our way….else we would all be smiten….
Hi theodorejThat you answered me with a platitude is an apt demonstration of what I mean.
Stuart
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 29 2008,10:29) Quote (942767 @ April 29 2008,09:21) No, God does not kill his children as He is falsely accused. He does correct His children as any parent who loves his children
So you agree, along with David, that those God had “ordered” to be killed were not his CHILDREN. And I suppose therefore it was justified? Hogwash. Innocent babies are counted among those who were ordered to be killed.No, your loyalty is to the dried ink – the written word. That's cool. It's up to you, your choice. But don't prentend you don't read the words and hear them. God has ordered people to be killed. These “people” make up his creation.
You don't have to respond me to me, bro. I'm just making a few comments here. I'm not trying to tick you off or anything, I just find it so curious how you can read what God does and then just blow it off. Perhaps these ones that God ordered to be killed deserved it…..after all they were “wicked”. But pray tell who created wickedness if it wasn't God? God created everything or allowed it to be. Who put that dang tree in the garden in the first place?
Hi Mandy:Again, children are the responsibility of the parents, and that is the way that God looks at this. The destruction of the children of the wicked is punishment to the parents.
Mandy, there is nothing you can do to “tick me off”. I love you and want the very best that God has to offer for you and your family.
I am not loyal to some that is written just because it is written. I know God as my Father, and he knows me as His son, and I know and understand Him through my Lord Jesus and the life that he lived.
He is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. Hogwash to you, but not to me.
Quote (david @ April 28 2008,15:39) It is his earth, and he has every right to decide who lives on it. That he has chosen not to make us like robots, I think is a good thing.
That he will remove those who are foolish enough to disregard their very maker is also the only just thing that can be done–for those who actually love God.
That's outrageous. IF God is so concerned about having men believe in His existence, he'd give us more evidence of such. I believe because I see enough, but others are more skeptical.So what proof does He give, flawed human texts? That is proof against Him not for Him! It is those very same texts that give most atheists and many agnostics pause.
Quote PROVERBS 2:21-22
“For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it.”
Where does this verse say you must believe in God to be “righteous”? It does not.Quote He has put a choice before us. Everylasting life, without pain, aging, sickness, death, poverty, etc ALL HE REQUIRES, all, he requires of us, is that we treat him like a father.
For those that are too small to recognize what he has put before us…. for those that are in such darkness, mentally alieanated from this, there seems little hope.
THROUGH ALL HISTORY, man has dominated man to his injury. We are horrible at ruling ourselves. We kill. We destroy. We take from the weak. We let people starve while we live in big homes. How many billions don't have clean water? This is a wicked system of things, twisted and ready to fall.
There are only two sides in this. Man rule or God rule. God's son cannot be bribed or paid off to act a certain way. There can be no corruption.
And you don't see the bible as yet another means others have manipulated people? The bible is full of such power. It has been used as a justification to kill and persecute like no other text in history.Quote And he has promised us more than we could ever imagine. Yes, those who look at this gift and say “so what” deserve all they get.
What evidence do they have that God ever promised what the various books say about Him? After all, the promises vary according to the texts.Quote The creator of the earth has the right to choose who lives and who dies. And it is not random. He only requires that we search him out.
Hogwash. Show me this concept without using the bible.Quote For the sake of mankind, the billion people who don't have enough to eat, the people who are being slaughtered by the millions by other people, GOD MUST ACT AND STEP IN.
Don't hold your breath.Quote And yes, he will remove the wicked.
How so?Quote And yes, to not do so would be unjust for those who want to serve him.
Quite. Your all for retribution it seems. Its a Christian thing. I know from experience. “God, why do they seem to be doing so well without you? When will they get their just reward for living outside of your will?”Whatever happened to “have mercy on me, a sinner?”
Quote And no, this is not wrong. As creator, he is the judge of what is right and wrong. And if your thought is out of line with his thinking, and you're ok with that, I can only imagine you will fade as the grass.
I sense fire and brimstone!Quote The reason we see all this suffering and this wickedness has been allowed, is that it was put to the question whether we needed God's rule. Whether or not man would be better off ruling himself. Whether any of God's creatures would want to serve him.
A lot of time would be needed to settle this. The answer is clear.Question: Is it just to leave the wicked continue to live?
Don't most of them anyway? The wicked and just die every day. God is no respecter of person's remember?Quote Is it not just on God's part to warn the wicked that they will face the lake of fire? They are given every chance. They know what they face. It loving on God's part to do this. He could simply wipe them out. He warns them and let's them change. The choice is completely theirs, but he cannot forever allow this to continue. It is not right for those who want to live peaceably, for those who want to obey their creator.
This would be a good sermon from the pulpit of a Southern Baptist preacher!
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