- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,18:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36) Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)
How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?
Cato, you have a right to criticize all you like. But when you say that the acts of God in the OT scriptures are untrue based on your belief in God being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving, then you are making a fallacious argument.Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Then answer how a supreme being capable of the feat of creating the universe can make mistakes?As I have said, I do not believe that God made a mistake ever. But, the same question goes back to you Cato.
Look around you, God created everything. Since he has all knowledge, all power, and he is all loving, why would he set in motion a world that would end up with all the evils we see in it today?
He is the Creator and is responsible for his creation, right?
Do you think he made a mistake?
Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Gen 6:6-7
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing.
You think this is proof that God made a mistake?
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,23:04)
No, I think it proof that this verse is simply wrong, and if this is wrong then it sheds doubt on the notion of Biblical infallibility.Cato the way you are interpreting the verse is ambiguous. But you do have the right to believe or interpret the scriptures as you would like. So why did you snip the last part of my post. Let me post it again for I think it explains the verse well.
Like I said, it looks like you have already made your mind up that the scriptures are false and Christians who believe in them are blind.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36)
There is nothing in the verses that said God made a mistake. (Or that proves the scriptures are untrue) It says God was grieved, he was filled with pain, and he was sorry that he had made man.But you say, “Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing”.
Tell me Cato, did God know that genocide would happen to the Jews? Did he know that little girl would be raped and murdered? Do you think God sits in the heavens and rejoices over evil? Do you think his heart is filled with pain and grief?
His mercies and loving kindness has stayed his hand for the moment.
We do not know what kind of evils that was being committed before the flood. We do know the imaginations of men’s hearts were only evil continually.
God’s Spirit will not always strive with man. The flood is proof in this.
There will be a day of reckoning again, for it seems that the imaginations of men’s hearts are becoming more and more wicked.
A loving Father would not stand by and watch his children destroy themselves. In his time he will surely put a stop to all evil. He is God.
You have a right to believe as you will Cato, as do we all.
Sincerely!
I have given you my answer, now why don’t you give me yours on the questions I asked.
Tell me Cato, did God know that genocide would happen to the Jews? Did he know that little girl would be raped and murdered? Do you think God sits in the heavens and rejoices over evil? Do you think his heart is filled with pain and grief?
If the answer to these questions is yes, then why would God create man knowing that he would be grieved and filled with pain for the evils committed by men?
Do you know the answer?
The only difference in my questions about God and what is expressed in those verses is God said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air…”
And the verdict is still out on that. So if you think God will not punish evil because he is all-loving so therefore he just sits in the heavens and does nothing, then you still need to answer the question…
“How is a God like that any less evil than the God of the OT, when he has the power to stop the evil, but instead sits by and watches the little children die of hunger and thirst and disease, or watches that little girl getting raped and turns his head?”
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,23:04)
Personally I don't think God makes mistakes but authors commonly do, including biblical ones.And what proof do you have? All you have is ambiguity. The scriptures can and has been miss interpreted for centuries, this forum is proof of that or else all of our views would be the same. Misconceptions can be found from any literary work.
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,23:04)
You say God does not make mistakes then why does he grieve that he made man then and wanted to wipe them from the earth?Do you think the same God that created everything is not “grieved” now?
Do you think God is incapable of being angry? How do you think your view of God is any better when you say “that he makes no mistakes, but there is cause and effect”? So if God had all-knowledge and all-power and he caused this creation to be, then that means the effects come from his cause right?
So the raping, murder, hunger, thirst, disease and all the horrors of this world is a result of his cause, right?
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,23:04)
If it all was for the good in the end (making man that is), he would not grieve to the point of wanting to destroy mankind much less the animals.How do you know at what point God would grieve? He is God the creator. He is the potter we are the clay. We were created for him and not we for ourselves. He can do with his creation whatever he likes because he is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-loving, therefore he knows whats best for his creation.
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,23:04)
I never said or implied God makes mistakes, it is Genesis that does so, therefore it is in error.No Genesis is not in error, it is your faulty interpretation that is in error. But, you do have the right to believe as you wish.
But please answer my question…
“How is a God like that any less evil than the God of the OT, when he has the power to stop the evil, but instead sits by and watches the little children die of hunger and thirst and disease, or watches that little girl getting raped and turns his head?”
Could it be that you don’t know the answer, and that as the “Inspired Scriptures” say…
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom 11:33
Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Job 9:10
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9
If God can stand by and do nothing now, then he also could be capable of wiping out man, (whose thoughts were only evil continually), off the face of the earth.
Blessings!
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
What of the millions who do not survive health ordeals where people have prayed for them fervently? When this happens, the typical answer is “it was God's will”.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)
I think I have already answered this. Do you pray to God kejonn? When he doesn’t answer you the way you think he should, do you give up on him and become an Atheist?Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,11:13)
Evasion. I asked why God chooses to answer some prayers and not others. You have no real reason besides its “God's will”No evasion. God doesn’t answer every prayer the way we think. Its that simple!
Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29) Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:15) WhatIsTrue,April wrote:Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!
What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
I can't speak for Kejonn, but I have always stressed there are consquences for sin. God doesn't IMO need to punish evil explicitly, for evil will always turn upon itself; I believe in the concept of karma, or in as you sow, so shall you reap. Yet as most evil or good in humans is limited and finite the consequences of their actions are likewise limited and finite.
I criticize some scripture in effort to show others who proclaim it infallible and God's word, that it is a work of men and needs to be looked upon like any other theological work.
Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
I will speak for myself. Yes, our actions and decisions have either negative or positive consequences.“Wickedness” has its own negative reward. If all you have to look forward to is some divine retribution in an afterlife for such wicked actions, then this life means less and less.
Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
How about all the ones that get away and never get caught. Did they get their just reward? Not to mention the little children that did nothing wrong, are they getting their reward?
Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
Only Christians and Muslims seem to have that mindset. Even Jews realize God wants us to work on making this life better, not string up treasures in heaven.Thats interesting, the Hebrew God and Hebrew scriptures are of the Jews.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,16:28) Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29) Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:15) WhatIsTrue,April wrote:Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!
What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
I can't speak for Kejonn, but I have always stressed there are consquences for sin. God doesn't IMO need to punish evil explicitly, for evil will always turn upon itself; I believe in the concept of karma, or in as you sow, so shall you reap. Yet as most evil or good in humans is limited and finite the consequences of their actions are likewise limited and finite.
I criticize some scripture in effort to show others who proclaim it infallible and God's word, that it is a work of men and needs to be looked upon like any other theological work.
Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
I will speak for myself. Yes, our actions and decisions have either negative or positive consequences.“Wickedness” has its own negative reward. If all you have to look forward to is some divine retribution in an afterlife for such wicked actions, then this life means less and less.
Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
What will Yahweh do? What if the pedophile accepts Jesus? Will he then get a free ticket to the new earth because he did so why kind hearted “lost” people get thrown in the lake of fire?Quote How about all the ones that get away and never get caught. Did they get their just reward? Not to mention the little children that did nothing wrong, are they getting their reward?
Again, what is Yahweh doing to these people? All they would have to do is accept Jesus and there will be no judgment against their actions here.Quote Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
Only Christians and Muslims seem to have that mindset. Even Jews realize God wants us to work on making this life better, not string up treasures in heaven.Thats interesting, the Hebrew God and Hebrew scriptures are of the Jews.
Yes, but they don't have the same view of afterlife that Christians have. Afterlife is not something they focus on. Christians often speak of looking forward to heaven and the end of the world.Quote (Stu @ April 25 2008,18:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:06) Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
That's what kejonn and I mean too. Not remission, complete disappearance of the tumour altogether. Happens at the same rate in atheists as in christians.Stuart
It would be good to see you substantiate this statement Stu. Where's the proof?Quote (kejonn @ April 25 2008,16:28) Sorry IS, but the Hebrew scriptures were written to Hebrew people, not Christians. Christians just hijacked them, retranslated, and reinterpreted for their own purposes. Isaiah 45:7 is a thorn in the fundamentalist Christian's side. Perhaps the thorn Paul had was that the OT was still in existence?
That's interesting, where in the OT do we read that the Hebrew scriptures were written exclusively to Hebrew people?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,09:28) Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
Keith,With all due respect, can you change the subject matter that you keep on and on with? I'm getting tired of reading about the “….little girl that gets raped….”. Maybe we can change that to something else, huh?
I think we all get your point by now. It's disturbing to me.
Thanks, bro.
MandyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,16:28) Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29) Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:15) WhatIsTrue,April wrote:Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!
What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
I can't speak for Kejonn, but I have always stressed there are consquences for sin. God doesn't IMO need to punish evil explicitly, for evil will always turn upon itself; I believe in the concept of karma, or in as you sow, so shall you reap. Yet as most evil or good in humans is limited and finite the consequences of their actions are likewise limited and finite.
I criticize some scripture in effort to show others who proclaim it infallible and God's word, that it is a work of men and needs to be looked upon like any other theological work.
Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
I will speak for myself. Yes, our actions and decisions have either negative or positive consequences.“Wickedness” has its own negative reward. If all you have to look forward to is some divine retribution in an afterlife for such wicked actions, then this life means less and less.
Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,12:36)
What will Yahweh do? What if the pedophile accepts Jesus? Will he then get a free ticket to the new earth because he did so why kind hearted “lost” people get thrown in the lake of fire?What are you trying to say kejonn? That YHWH cannot forgive sins? Or, that a man cannot have a chance for repentance and change?
Or does this mean that men can do what ever they like without any penalty, especially if they can get away with it?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,16:28)
How about all the ones that get away and never get caught. Did they get their just reward? Not to mention the little children that did nothing wrong, are they getting their reward?Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,12:36)
Again, what is Yahweh doing to these people? All they would have to do is accept Jesus and there will be no judgment against their actions here.Quote (kejonn @ April 26 2008,00:29)
Only Christians and Muslims seem to have that mindset. Even Jews realize God wants us to work on making this life better, not string up treasures in heaven.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,16:28)
Thats interesting, the Hebrew God and Hebrew scriptures are of the Jews.Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,12:36)
Yes, but they don't have the same view of afterlife that Christians have. Afterlife is not something they focus on. Christians often speak of looking forward to heaven and the end of the world.I think we have already discussed this. But there are many Jews that have converted to Christianity.
Just read the NT. But I already know your response about the NT. So just spare me.
Kevin, you are a much smarter guy than I am. Intellectually I can’t hold a candle to you. I respect you for your diligence and tenacity and your intellectual abilities. So I am going to bow out of this conversation with you before it becomes too personal.
I do love you like a brother, in fact you get under my skin like one of my brothers.
So I wish you the very best in your search for the truth, and hope that you find what it is your heart seeks after.Blessings, Keith
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,16:10) Intellectually I can’t hold a candle to you.
I don't think this is true at all.
You're candle was burning pretty bright, bro.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,15:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,09:28) Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
Keith,With all due respect, can you change the subject matter that you keep on and on with? I'm getting tired of reading about the “….little girl that gets raped….”. Maybe we can change that to something else, huh?
I think we all get your point by now. It's disturbing to me.
Thanks, bro.
Mandy
not3Yes and everyone here gets the point that they do not believe in the Hebrew scriptures, yet they keep coming with their barrage of critisisms.
That is their right. But, dont expect it to go unchallenged!
I am sorry it bothers you. I realize it is not a pretty picture.
But I dont think they get the point. They try and paint this ugly picture of YHWY in the OT scriptures which bothers me.
My point is their proposed God is no different than the God of the OT, if God just sits in the heavens and does nothing when he has the power to.
To me that makes God even more evil than judging sin and wickedness.
I do not claim to have all the answers. But I know his ways are past my finding out, at least to fully know him or understand him on this side of the grave.
I understand you getting disturbed, it is my faith and the faith of many others that is being attacked by their critical comments of the Scriptures and the God in which I and many others here believe in and serve.
But again that is their right, but I will stand up for what I believe to be the truth.
Blessings!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,16:23) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,16:10) Intellectually I can’t hold a candle to you.
I don't think this is true at all.
You're candle was burning pretty bright, bro.
Not3Thanks for your comment.
But I know my limitations.
Cato and kejonn are far more advanced intellectually.
I think I can hold my own with scritpures, but that is it.
Thanks for your confidence Sis.
Blessings Keith
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 27 2008,15:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,09:28) Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward?
Keith,With all due respect, can you change the subject matter that you keep on and on with? I'm getting tired of reading about the “….little girl that gets raped….”. Maybe we can change that to something else, huh?
I think we all get your point by now. It's disturbing to me.
Thanks, bro.
Mandy
not3Besides the little girl getting raped and murdered is as evil as it gets.
Sorry it is a hard fact and question, why?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 27 2008,16:32) My point is their proposed God is no different than the God of the OT, if God just sits in the heavens and does nothing when he has the power to.
I don't know. I've been thinking about this as I've read this debate.I think there is a difference.
The difference is that in the OT God seems responsible for and even demands that suffering take place. He directs it, and appears to receive satisfaction from causing the death of many innocent women and children (not to mention scads of men and animals). To the common reader, this is horrific behavior for a supposed loving God/Creator.
In my mind there is a difference between demanding suffering and “watching” suffering with the power to stop it. I don't want to use your example of a child rape, but I guess you are right in that it is a shocking picture that drives home a point.
Don't you think there would be a difference between God ordering that a child be raped, and watching mankind do this as a result of it's inherit or self-imposed wickedness? Sure, God could put a stop to it if he *wanted* to (and I'm sure he wants to), but according to his own written Word, he has already put a stop to it by sending his Son as a sacrifice for sin. Does that make the suffering stop? No. But it certainly doesn't order more suffering to take place either. So, which is worse? If you had to choose, which one would you pick:
A. God orders a child to be raped and killed.
B. A child is raped and killed due to inherit wickedness, but God sends a sacrifice for this wickedness.Maybe I'm simplifying, and that is entirely possible. Either way, the child still suffers, but in my mind there is a difference between God ordering the suffering and it taking place due to mankinds inherit or self-imposed wickedness.
And it is still going on today. And it will get worse before Christ will return. It will be like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Is that bad a enough?
Oeace and Love Mrs.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,23:10) Quote Really, So then when a pedophile rapes and murders a dozen children and gets caught and is out on the street in a few years then he got his just reward? Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,12:36)
What will Yahweh do? What if the pedophile accepts Jesus? Will he then get a free ticket to the new earth because he did so why kind hearted “lost” people get thrown in the lake of fire?What are you trying to say kejonn? That YHWH cannot forgive sins? Or, that a man cannot have a chance for repentance and change?
No, that your scenario is not working for you. There is no evidence that Yahweh does a single thing to pedophiles, rapists, murderers, serial killers, etc.Quote Or does this mean that men can do what ever they like without any penalty, especially if they can get away with it?
Nope. But again, what is Yahweh going to do to them? I haven't heard of him stepping in since the OT. Oh wait, a couple who lied dropped dead in the NT too, forgot about that.Quote Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,12:36)
Yes, but they don't have the same view of afterlife that Christians have. Afterlife is not something they focus on. Christians often speak of looking forward to heaven and the end of the world.I think we have already discussed this. But there are many Jews that have converted to Christianity.
And there have been many Jews who converted back to Judaism. There have also been many Christians who have de-converted and become either agnostic or atheist. There have also been many Christians who have converted to Islam.So speaking of conversion to Christianity is not a determining factor.
Quote Just read the NT. But I already know your response about the NT. So just spare me. Kevin, you are a much smarter guy than I am. Intellectually I can’t hold a candle to you. I respect you for your diligence and tenacity and your intellectual abilities. So I am going to bow out of this conversation with you before it becomes too personal.
It has nothing to do with intelligence WJ, and I would not say I am more intelligent than you. You are quite brilliant. And you can get “long winded” as well
. We both can.Quote I do love you like a brother, in fact you get under my skin like one of my brothers. So I wish you the very best in your search for the truth, and hope that you find what it is your heart seeks after.Blessings, Keith
Thanks Keith. I appreciate your kind words and willingness to discuss. I wish you well in your walk!Just so you know, I have nothing at all against my former brethren, you definitely included. My purpose here has been merely to show that Christianity and the bible may not be the only way of knowing God. God is fairly unknowable outside of a religious text, and the various texts say different things about Him. That is because each one is biased by the minds who wrote them.
To my mind, the bible is no longer an acceptable view of God. I cannot accept God did the things the OT said of Him.
But I know you have accepted Christianity as your way of life, and I say do your best to honor it. Honor and praise God in the ways you have come to know Him!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,23:32) My point is their proposed God is no different than the God of the OT, if God just sits in the heavens and does nothing when he has the power to.
Just “butting in” because of this statement. The only record we have of Yahweh getting involved is the OT. Why is he not getting involved like he did in the OT? Why is he every bit as silent as any other god?Quote (kejonn @ April 27 2008,20:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 26 2008,23:32) My point is their proposed God is no different than the God of the OT, if God just sits in the heavens and does nothing when he has the power to.
Just “butting in” because of this statement. The only record we have of Yahweh getting involved is the OT. Why is he not getting involved like he did in the OT? Why is he every bit as silent as any other god?
I suppose because now there is a mechanism for people to sign up for protection from punishment by salvation through a messiah. After drowning everyone failed, god is now instead trying a celebrity-based customer loyalty scheme to keep humans on-message. Accumulate enough points and you win one big eternal prize (and get to see all those unrepentant sinners suffer as a bonus).Yet it doesn't seem to be working, in the eyes of christians. They may enjoy righteousness but there are still people of whose behaviour they don't approve.
Of course human nature has not changed at all for many tens of thousands of years, and why should it? Once again a discussion that goes twenty-three times around the mulberry bush ignores the basic biological facts of our history and current existence. The bible has no power to enlighten here at all. You would be far better off reading Shakespeare for an inspired observation of the human condition.
Stuart
Quote (seek and you will find @ April 27 2008,19:28) And it is still going on today. And it will get worse before Christ will return. It will be like the days of Sodom and Gomorrah. Is that bad a enough?
Oeace and Love Mrs.
True, there is nothing new under the sun. Even in the OT they were having sex with animals (otherwise why did it need to be mentioned as a “thou shalt not”). So, I would agree that wickedness is no more wicked than it was in ages past.The judgment of God upon the wicked is progressively more severe with the extent of the revelation God has given humanity of His plan for their redemption. The judgment of Adam and Eve:
Quote Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.Those who lived after Adam until the flood also suffered the same judgment as Adam. They all had a chance to repent, but only Enoch repented and was taken by God so that he would not suffer death, and the judgment of those in the time of Noah was destruction by the flood waters.
Quote Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Verse 5:13 above states that sin is not imputed where there is no law, and I understand this to mean that each sin is not brought in to accountability before God unless there is a Law.
Under the Law of Moses the punishment for difiantly disobeying God's commandments was death by stoning. That was the judgment against the wicked who were part of the nation of Israel. Those who were striving to obey God under the Law of Moses will be part of the body of Christ that is raptured when Jesus comes for the church.
God judged the gentile nations by the sword as he gave their land to the Nation of Israel. All had the opportunity to repent. In this time the gentile nations would have had knowledge of Adam and Eve and of the flood and of Sodom and Gomorrah, and of the Nation of Israel.
Quote Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Hbr 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.And so, we see that the judgment of those until the NT have already been judged, but the judgment of the wicked in the NT era is delayed until the coming of the Lord for the church. This is give everyone an opportunity to be reconciled to God through His glorious gospel. God is not willing that any man should perish.
Quote Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Jhn 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.The wicked who are alive at the coming of the Lord will be judged by the seven last plagues according to their works. Those who have died in their sin prior to the coming of the Lord for the church will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 year period in the second resurrection to receive their judgment.
And for God's children, all that have striven to obey Him from the beginning to the end:
Quote 1Cr 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Quote 2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Quote Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Bro 94,
I just had a pretty long post where I quoted you and answered you, but I pushed the wrong button and it got erased. So be it. But with each one of your teachings I am wanting to follow this God of the bible less and less.
I can see that God causes killing and threatens his creation with slaughter, floods, plagues, and lakes of fire where the smell of their torment will continually rise. Why? All because they do not obey him. And this is called love?
I don't want that kind of love.
Sure, he will wipe every tear in the end and there shall be no more death………because he will stop killing then? And only be surrounded by those who obeyed (whether out of fear it matters not). Nope. I don't want this.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
