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Quote (kejonn @ April 25 2008,00:00) Really Cato, Yahweh could not help it. It seems he never could create a human that did not express both good and evil, so he was full of regret. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
The hebrew word “rah” (for evil) could legitimately be rendered “calamity” or “distress”, which changes the meaning of the verse somewhat, i.e. the conveyence was akin to a natural disaster rather than a moral evil. It's quite true that YHWH did send calamity on people/nations when it was required. It was never a senseless action, there was always a purpose behind it.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 24 2008,21:37) Quote (kejonn @ April 25 2008,00:00) Really Cato, Yahweh could not help it. It seems he never could create a human that did not express both good and evil, so he was full of regret. Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.
The hebrew word “rah” (for evil) could legitimately be rendered “calamity” or “distress”, which changes the meaning of the verse somewhat, i.e. the conveyence was akin to a natural disaster rather than a moral evil. It's quite true that YHWH did send calamity on people/nations when it was required. It was never a senseless action, there was always a purpose behind it.
From Simply Jewish:- Isaiah 45:7
Who forms light and creates darkness, Who makes peace and creates evil; I am the L-rd, Who makes all these.Missionaries attribute evil to the Devil. That is not Scriptural. G-d created evil. It must be so; G-d's oneness implies that there is only one Force in the world. G-d intended evil so that Man would have free choice and serve G-d. G-d wants to freely reject evil, but this task is only meaningful if evil is present.
From Who is Satan?:
- In Isaiah 45:7, the prophet describes God's creation plan when he reports that,
I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I the Lord do all these things.
I did not invent these verses, nor did I tamper with them. In fact, the Bible I used in the above quotations is the King James Version, which is a translation that could hardly be construed as friendly to the Jewish faith.
These edifying verses underscore the fundamental biblical teaching that it is the perfect spiritual balance of good and evil in the world that confronts every searching soul. This is the Almighty's divine sovereign plan for creation: It is through man's personal decision to turn away from evil and choose good that virtue can be attained.
Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 30:15, however, pose a serious theological problem for Christians who maintain that God did not create Satan, the angel of evil. According to Christian doctrine, Satan was the highest-ranking angel who, through his own act of spiritual defiance and outright disobedience, became the chief adversary and slanderer of God and the embodiment of evil in this world. In Christian theology God never created evil; He is only the author of righteousness and perfection, as you maintained in your question. Therefore, God could never create something as sinister as the devil himself. Rather, Satan's unyielding wickedness is the result of his own spiritual rebellion.
From http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_faq.html:
- In Christian belief, Satan is a fallen angel that has freedom of choice and rebels against G-d. Judaism's view is very different. Isaiah 45:7 and Deuteronomy 13 show that G-d created the temptation to do evil to test our loyalty. That is why the word (Satan–) in Hebrew literally means an adversary (Numbers 22:22) that comes to challenge us. Our mission is to overcome these temptations and do what is correct. The Torah (Genesis 4:7) teaches that this mission is within our ability to fulfill.
Isaiah 45:7
form . . . create–yatzar, to give “form” to previously existing matter. Bara, to “create” from nothing the chaotic dark material.
light . . . darkness–literally (Genesis 1:1-3), emblematical also, prosperity to Cyrus, calamity to Babylon and the nations to be vanquished [GROTIUS] . . . Isaiah refers also to the Oriental belief in two coexistent, eternal principles, ever struggling with each other, light or good, and darkness or evil, Oromasden and Ahrimanen. God, here, in opposition, asserts His sovereignty over both [VITRINGA].
create evil–not moral evil (James 1:13), but in contrast to “peace” in the parallel clause, war, disaster (compare Psalms 65:7; Amos 3:6).
From: http://bibletools.org/index.c….JFB
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness – Light, in the Bible, is the emblem of knowledge, innocence, pure religion, and of prosperity in general; and darkness is the emblem of the opposite. Light here seems to be the emblem of peace and prosperity, and darkness the emblem of adversity; and the sentiment of the verse is, that all things prosperous and adverse are under the providential control and direction of God. Of light, it is literally true that God made it; and emblematically true that he is the source of knowledge, prosperity, happiness, and pure religion. Of darkness, it is literally true also that the night is formed by him; that he withdraws the light of the sun, and leaves the earth enveloped in gloomy shades. It is emblematically true also that calamity, ignorance, disappointment, and want of success are ordered by him; and not less true that all the moral darkness, or evil, that prevails on earth, is under the direction and ordering of his Providence. There is no reason to think, however, that the words ' darkness' and ' evil' are to be understood as referring to moral darkness; that is, sin.
A strict regard should be had to the connection in the interpretation of such passages; and the connection here does not demand such an interpretation. The main subject is, the prosperity which would attend the arms of Cyrus, the consequent reverses and calamities of the nations whom he would subdue, and the proof thence furnished that Yahweh was the true God; and the passage should be limited in the interpretation to this design. The statement is, that all this was under his direction. It was not the work of chance or hap-hazard. It was not accomplished or caused by idols. It was not originated by any inferior or subordinate cause. It was to be traced entirely to God. The successes of arms, and the blessings of peace were to be traced to him; and the reverses of arms, and the calamities of war to him also. This is all that the connection of the passage demands; and this is in accordance with the interpretation of Kimchi, Jerome, Rosenmuller, Gesenius, Calvin, and Grotius. The comment of Grotius is, ' Giving safety to the people, as the Persians; sending calamities upon the people, as upon the Medes and Babylonians.' Lowth, Jerome, Vitringa, Jahn, and some others, suppose that there is reference here to the prevalent doctrine among the Persians, and the followers of the Magian religion in general, which prevailed all over the East, and in which Cyrus was probably educated, that there are two supreme, independent, co-existent and eternal causes always acting in opposition to each other – the one the author of all good, and the other of all evil; and that these principles or causes are constantly struggling with each other.
The good being or principle, they call light; and the evil, darkness; the one, Oromasden, and the other Ahrimanen. It was further the doctrine of the Magians that when the good principle had the ascendency, happiness prevailed; and when the evil principle prevailed, misery abounded. Lowth supposes, that God here means to assert his complete and absolute superiority over all other things or principles; and that all those powers whom the Persians supposed to be the original authors of good and evil to mankind were subordinate, and must be subject to him; and that there is no power that is not subservient to him, and under his control. That these opinions prevailed in very early times, and perhaps as early as Isaiah, there seems no good reason to doubt (Hyde, de Relig. Veter. Persar, xxii.) But there is no good evidence that Isaiah here referred to those opinions. Good and evil, prosperity and adversity, abound in the world at all times; and all that is required in order to a correct understanding of this passage is the general statement that all these things are under providential direction.
I make peace – I hush the contending passions of mankind; I dispose to peace, and prevent wars when I choose – a passage which proves that the most violent passions are under his control. No passions are more uncontrollable than those which lead to wars; and nowhere is there a more striking display of the Omnipotence of God than in his power to repress the pride, ambition, and spirit of revenge of conquerors and kings:
Which stilleth the noise of the seas,
The noise of their waves,
And the tumult of the people.
Psalms 65:7
And create evil – The parallelism here shows that this is not to be understood in the sense of all evil, but of that which is the opposite of peace and prosperity. That is, God directs judgments, disappointments, trials, and calamities; he has power to suffer the mad passions of people to rage, and to afflict nations with war; he presides over adverse as well as prosperous events. The passage does not Proverbs that God is the author of moral evil, or sin, and such a sentiment is abhorrent to the general strain of the Bible, and to all just views of the character of a holy God.
From: http://bibletools.org/index.c….s
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness – It was the great principle of the Magian religion, which prevailed in Persia in the time of Cyrus, and in which probably he was educated, that there are two supreme, co-eternal, and independent causes always acting in opposition one to the other; one the author of all good, the other of all evil. The good being they called Light; the evil being, Darkness. That when Light had the ascendant, then good and happtness prevailed among men; when Darkness had the superiority, then eviI and misery abounded. An opinion that contradicts the clearest evidence of our reason, which plainly leads us to the acknowledgment of one only Supreme Being, infinitely good as well as powerful. With reference to this absurd opinion, held by the person to whom this prophecy is addressed, God, by his prophet, in the most significant terms, asserts his omnipotence and absolute supremacy: –
“I am Jehovah, and none else;
Forming light, and creating darkness,
Making peace, and creating evil:
I Jehovah am the author of all these things.”
Declaring that those powers whom the Persians held to be the original authors of good and evil to mankind, representing them by light and darkness, as their proper emblems, are no other than creatures of God, the instruments which he employs in his government of the world, ordained or permitted by him in order to execute his wise and just decrees; and that there is no power, either of good or evil, independent of the one supreme God, infinite in power and in goodness.
There were, however, some among the Persians whose sentiments were more moderate as to this matter; who held the evil principle to be in some measure subordinate to the good; and that the former would at length be wholly subdued by the latter. See Hyde, De Relig. Vet. Pers. cap. xxii.
That this opinion prevailed amo
ng the Persians as early as the time of Cyrus we may, I think, infer not only from this passage of Isaiah, which has a manifest reference to it, but likewise from a passage in Xenophon' s Cyropaedia, where the same doctrine is applied to the human mind. Araspes, a noble young Persian, had fallen in love with the fair captive Panthea, committed to his charge by Cyrus. After all his boasting that he was superior to the assaults of that passion, he yielded so far to it as even to threaten violence if she would not comply with his desires. Awed by the reproof of Cyrus, fearing his displeasure, and having by cool reflection recovered his reason; in his discourse with him on this subject he says: “O Cyrus, I have certainly two souls; alld this piece of philosophy I have learned from that wicked sophist, Love. For if I had but one soul, it would not be at the same time good and evil, it would not at the same time approve of honorable and base actions; and at once desire to do, and refuse to do, the very same things. But it is plain that I am animated by two souls, and when the good soul prevails, I do what is virtuous; and when the evil one prevails, I attempt what is vicious. But now the good soul prevails, having gotten you for her assistant, and has clearly gained the superiority.” Lib. 6 p. 424.I make peace, and create evil – Evil is here evidently put for war and its attendant miseries. I will procure peace for the Israelites, and destroy Babylon by war. I form light, and create darkness. Now, as darkness is only the privation of light, so the evil of war is the privation of peace.
From: http://bibletools.org/index.c….e
Verses 5-10 There is no God beside Jehovah. There is nothing done without him. He makes peace, put here for all good; and creates evil, not the evil of sin, but the evil of punishment. He is the Author of all that is true, holy, good, or happy; and evil, error, and misery, came into the world by his permission, through the wilful apostacy of his creatures, but are restrained and overruled to his righteous purpose. This doctrine is applied, for the comfort of those that earnestly longed, yet quietly waited, for the redemption of Israel. The redemption of sinners by the Son of God, and the pouring out the Spirit, to give success to the gospel, are chiefly here intended. We must not expect salvation without righteousness; together the Lord hath created them. Let not oppressors oppose God's designs for his people. Let not the poor oppressed murmur, as if God dealt unkindly with them. Men are but earthen pots; they are broken potsherds, and are very much made so by mutual contentions. To contend with Him is as senseless as for clay to find fault with the potter. Let us turn God's promises into prayers, beseeching him that salvation may abound among us, and let us rest assured that the Judge of all the earth will do right.
From: http://bibletools.org/index.c….MH
Etc…etc….
Sorry IS, but the Hebrew scriptures were written to Hebrew people, not Christians. Christians just hijacked them, retranslated, and reinterpreted for their own purposes. Isaiah 45:7 is a thorn in the fundamentalist Christian's side. Perhaps the thorn Paul had was that the OT was still in existence?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54) Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,11:13) WJ, After reading that last post, I just have to ask: outside of the bible, is Yahweh doing anything more than the god Cato speaks of?
kejonnI cannot speak for Cato's God or his relationship with him. But, is God alive and moving in my life and those around me?
Absolutely yes. I have witnessed 2 documented cancer patients healed from cancer in the last few weeks.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
But you do know that cancer remission is equally prevalent amongst other religious adherents, as well as those who do not hold to any certain belief system, right?Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
So while it is awesome these people were healed, it is no more proof that Yahweh did anything than Allah. Our bodies are awesome machines.What would it take for you to believe kejonn?
If The Omnipotent God created these awesome machines then why couldn't he use his power to heal them?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)
About a month ago, a little 5 year old boy was on his death bed, parents were called in for they didn’t expect him to live through the night, he had a serious heart condition and fell in a coma, the doctors said that even if he came out of the coma that he would have brain damage. Our church prayed and believed God's word and the following Sunday he was in church, and there was nothing wrong with him.Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
Again, this is great! But what, beyond your faith in such, leads you to belief this is Yahweh in action?I suppose it could have been a big coincidence. NOT!
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
What of the millions who do not survive health ordeals where people have prayed for them fervently? When this happens, the typical answer is “it was God's will”.I think I have already answered this. Do you pray to God kejonn? When he doesn’t answer you the way you think he should, do you give up on him and become an Atheist?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)
Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is alive and well.So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?
To be honest, I don’t know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his hometown and the scriptures said he couldn’t do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
So yes, the Lord is working in my life daily. I feel his presence and hear his voice everyday.
Blessings!
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
That is fine WJ. But a Muslim can also speak of Allah's presence in their life. A Hindu can make similar claims about Brahman. Does your experiences and faith invalidate the reality of Allah and Brahman?No, my experience doesn’t invalidate any ones experience. It only validates mine.
Every man shall be accountable for his own actions in life. His experience is his and nobody else’s. It can only be shared with those who want to share it with him!
Blessings!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54) So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all? To be honest, I don’t know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his hometown and the scriptures said he couldn’t do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
This can be a dangerous mindset, if you describe unbelief as a lack of strong faith.Unbelief and Faith are opposites, enemies.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Such feelings will result is guilt amongst those where healing has not taken place.Depends on the person. I have seen many who suffered without being healed, yet their faith and trust in the Lord became stronger.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Why should Yahweh need the belief of a human to perform miracles?He doesn’t, but it does please him when men trust and believe in him no matter what.
If you have a son, you know what that is all about. Your son when he is little trusts you no matter what. The Lord desires for our relationship to become such that like the little child we believe him and trust him no matter what.
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Whose faith enabled him to create the universe?I think you know the answer to that!
Blessings!
Quote Sorry IS, but the Hebrew scriptures were written to Hebrew people, not Christians. Christians just hijacked them, retranslated, and reinterpreted for their own purposes. Isaiah 45:7 is a thorn in the fundamentalist Christian's side. Perhaps the thorn Paul had was that the OT was still in existence? Sorry Kejonn, but again, you're wrong.
Whenever a word can go more than one way, you obviously interpret it in the most negative light, because that is your stated aim and goal.Perhaps a bit of research on your part would show that exactly as Is said:
Quote The hebrew word “rah” (for evil) could legitimately be rendered “calamity” or “distress”, The word “evil” isn't exactly the best translation of that word. That's because that word is primarily understood to mean “morally bad” whereas it can simply mean: causing ruin, injury, etc (calamity, distress)
But, people such as yourself close your eyes to anything that doesn't paint God in the worst possible way.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36) Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)
How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?
Cato, you have a right to criticize all you like. But when you say that the acts of God in the OT scriptures are untrue based on your belief in God being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving, then you are making a fallacious argument.Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Then answer how a supreme being capable of the feat of creating the universe can make mistakes?As I have said, I do not believe that God made a mistake ever. But, the same question goes back to you Cato.
Look around you, God created everything. Since he has all knowledge, all power, and he is all loving, why would he set in motion a world that would end up with all the evils we see in it today?
He is the Creator and is responsible for his creation, right?
Do you think he made a mistake?
Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Gen 6:6-7
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing.
You think this is proof that God made a mistake?
Like I said, it looks like you have already made your mind up that the scriptures are false and Christians who believe in them are blind.
There is nothing in the verses that said God made a mistake. It says God was grieved, he was filled with pain, and he was sorry that he had made man.
But you say, “Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing”.
Tell me Cato, did God know that genocide would happen to the Jews? Did he know that little girl would be raped and murdered? Do you think God sits in the heavens and rejoices over evil? Do you think his heart is filled with pain and grief?
Yet his mercies and loving kindness has stayed his hand for the moment.
We do not know what kind of evils that was being committed before the flood. We do know the imaginations of men’s hearts were only evil continually.
God’s Spirit will not always strive with man. The flood is proof in this.
There will be a day of reckoning again, for it seems that the imaginations of men’s hearts are becoming more and more wicked.
A loving Father would not stand by and watch his children destroy themselves. In his time he will surely put a stop to all evil. He is God.
You have a right to believe as you will Cato, as do we all.
Sincerely!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:06) Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
That's what kejonn and I mean too. Not remission, complete disappearance of the tumour altogether. Happens at the same rate in atheists as in christians.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 25 2008,18:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:06) Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
That's what kejonn and I mean too. Not remission, complete disappearance of the tumour altogether. Happens at the same rate in atheists as in christians.Stuart
StuI dont think you understand. I am talking about the tumor is there one day and gone the next. With no trace of cancer and the Doctors are dumbfounded.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11) WJ wrote: Quote Why, do you think that [universal salvation] is impossible for an all-powerful God? No, I do not think such a feat is impossible for an all-powerful God.
Good.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote So if it is God’s will for everyone to be saved and it is possible for him to save all, don’t you think he will do it? Certainly, if that is his will.
Good.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. Do you think he failed? The Bible says that he died for the “Sin” of the world! Was his death in vain? I guess it depends on your point of view. From the vantage point of what we can see in this world, Jesus most certainly failed. Many of the people who have lived since he died never heard of him, and many more were born in cultures where Christianity played as much significance as Hinduism plays in the US. So, if salvation is dependent on “believing in him” in this life, the vast majority of humanity is lost, but, if “salvation” is dependent on some future “pardon” that has not been revealed to us in this life, then a 100% success rate is still possible.
True!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote I realize that this is unpopular to the traditional teachings of most churches today. Unpopular?!?!?! I think that if you walked into a hundred churches and made such statements, you would be hounded out of at least 99.
How then is it possible that scripture even hints at such things if practically no one in orthodox Christianity believes it? Is scripture that indecipherable, or is contempary Christianity that corrupt?
Good point.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote Do you think he will make all things new, except for a little remote spot in the universe where 2/3 (billions of souls) of humanity are in agonizing pain forever and ever. If so then he didn’t wipe away all tears did he? Then it is not true that there will be no pain anymore?
Agreed.
Good.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote This is off topic, but since this thread is about the OT. Tell you what, you show me one place in the OT scriptures that even hints at a place of eternal torment. Every major doctrine can be found in the OT except “Eternal Torment”, why not?
Ask yourself this question, why wouldn’t God tell Adam if you eat of the fruit of the tree you will suffer forever and ever in a burning lake of fire.
Its one thing for God to wipe out a human race because of his judgments, or even stand by and watch little children being raped without doing nothing, but it is another for God to make billions of souls suffer in such pain forever and ever, especially since Jesus died for them, didn't he?Agreed again. Though, as you likely remember, I would argue that there is no Trinity doctrine in the OT either.
Come on, I thought this would be a 100% contention less post.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
WJ wrote:Quote If [fire insurance] is why you serve God then maybe you should take a closer look at your motives. We are Christians and serve him because we love him. Agreed again. But, consider this:
Virtually every time the “gospel” message is delivered, it is presented as a choice between two alternatives. Either one trusts in Jesus for salvation, or one will suffer “eternal separation” from God. Nearly all Christian conversions seem to be about being saved from the consequences of personal sin. I would posit that the vast majority of Christians started off their faith as a form of “fire insurance”.
Many move past that and are motivated out of their love for God, but that generally comes later, if at all.True!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are ofte
n warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
By the way, thanks for being one of the few Christians on here who actually try to answer some of the hard questions. I am sure that it would be much easier to ignore this section of the forum altogether.Thanks! Good to talk with you!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:03) Quote (Stu @ April 25 2008,18:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:06) Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
That's what kejonn and I mean too. Not remission, complete disappearance of the tumour altogether. Happens at the same rate in atheists as in christians.Stuart
StuI dont think you understand. I am talking about the tumor is there one day and gone the next. With no trace of cancer and the Doctors are dumbfounded.
I don't think you understand.Stuart
Quote (david @ April 25 2008,17:47) Whenever a word can go more than one way, you obviously interpret it in the most negative light, because that is your stated aim and goal.
Hi David, I'd just like you to remember that you wrote this, for future reference.Stuart
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,18:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36) Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)
How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?
Cato, you have a right to criticize all you like. But when you say that the acts of God in the OT scriptures are untrue based on your belief in God being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving, then you are making a fallacious argument.Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Then answer how a supreme being capable of the feat of creating the universe can make mistakes?As I have said, I do not believe that God made a mistake ever. But, the same question goes back to you Cato.
Look around you, God created everything. Since he has all knowledge, all power, and he is all loving, why would he set in motion a world that would end up with all the evils we see in it today?
He is the Creator and is responsible for his creation, right?
Do you think he made a mistake?
Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,23:33)
Gen 6:6-7
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing.
You think this is proof that God made a mistake?
No, I think it proof that this verse is simply wrong, and if this is wrong then it sheds doubt on the notion of Biblical infallibility. Personally I don't think God makes mistakes but authors commonly do, including biblical ones. You say God does not make mistakes then why does he grieve that he made man then and wanted to wipe them from the earth? If it all was for the good in the end (making man that is), he would not grieve to the point of wanting to destroy mankind much less the animals. I never said or implied God makes mistakes, it is Genesis that does so, therefore it is in error.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,00:06) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54) Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,11:13) WJ, After reading that last post, I just have to ask: outside of the bible, is Yahweh doing anything more than the god Cato speaks of?
kejonnI cannot speak for Cato's God or his relationship with him. But, is God alive and moving in my life and those around me?
Absolutely yes. I have witnessed 2 documented cancer patients healed from cancer in the last few weeks.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
But you do know that cancer remission is equally prevalent amongst other religious adherents, as well as those who do not hold to any certain belief system, right?Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
http://chetday.com/spontaneousremissions.htmRemission does not just mean it stops, it can mean there is no sign of the cancer. Watch this video: http://www.healthcentral.com/video/408/2471.html
Quote Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
So while it is awesome these people were healed, it is no more proof that Yahweh did anything than Allah. Our bodies are awesome machines.What would it take for you to believe kejonn?
Believe in God, or believe that God — in this case Yahweh — stepped in a provided the cure?Why does Yahweh not grow back a diabetic's amputated limb?
Quote If The Omnipotent God created these awesome machines then why couldn't he use his power to heal them?
Because to do so would be to show favoritism. Do you show favoritism to one of your children?Why all of the starving children in the world when people if other countries are thriving?
Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)
About a month ago, a little 5 year old boy was on his death bed, parents were called in for they didn’t expect him to live through the night, he had a serious heart condition and fell in a coma, the doctors said that even if he came out of the coma that he would have brain damage. Our church prayed and believed God's word and the following Sunday he was in church, and there was nothing wrong with him.Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
Again, this is great! But what, beyond your faith in such, leads you to belief this is Yahweh in action?I suppose it could have been a big coincidence. NOT!
Again, what if someone speaks of a similar miracle, but that person is not a Christian, what then? What will you say was the cause of their “miracle”?Quote Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
What of the millions who do not survive health ordeals where people have prayed for them fervently? When this happens, the typical answer is “it was God's will”.I think I have already answered this. Do you pray to God kejonn? When he doesn’t answer you the way you think he should, do you give up on him and become an Atheist?
Evasion. I asked why God chooses to answer some prayers and not others. You have no real reason besides its “God's will”Quote Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)
Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is alive and well.So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?
To be honest, I don’t know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his hometown and the scriptures said he couldn’t do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
So yes, the Lord is working in my life daily. I feel his presence and hear his voice everyday.
Blessings!
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:13)
That is fine WJ. But a Muslim can also speak of Allah's presence in their life. A Hindu can make similar claims about Brahman. Does your experiences and faith invalidate the reality of Allah and Brahman?No, my experience doesn’t invalidate any ones experience. It only validates mine.
Every man shall be accountable for his own actions in life. His experience is his and nobody else’s. It can only be shared with those who want to share it with him!
Blessings!
Thanks, I'm glad you are not one who claims your way is the only true way.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,00:26) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54) So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all? To be honest, I don’t know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his hometown and the scriptures said he couldn’t do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
This can be a dangerous mindset, if you describe unbelief as a lack of strong faith.Unbelief and Faith are opposites, enemies.
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Such feelings will result is guilt amongst those where healing has not taken place.Depends on the person. I have seen many who suffered without being healed, yet their faith and trust in the Lord became stronger.
But you failed to mention those who instead lose faith after such an ordeal. Please don't cherry pick.Quote Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Why should Yahweh need the belief of a human to perform miracles?He doesn’t, but it does please him when men trust and believe in him no matter what.
So why do many of these same “miracles” happen to people who do not believe in him?Quote If you have a son, you know what that is all about. Your son when he is little trusts you no matter what. The Lord desires for our relationship to become such that like the little child we believe him and trust him no matter what. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6)
Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,23:17)
Whose faith enabled him to create the universe?I think you know the answer to that!
Blessings!
Yes I do! It wasn't any Jews or Christians
. Or any other human. So again, faith is not necessary for God to work.Quote (david @ April 25 2008,00:47) Quote Sorry IS, but the Hebrew scriptures were written to Hebrew people, not Christians. Christians just hijacked them, retranslated, and reinterpreted for their own purposes. Isaiah 45:7 is a thorn in the fundamentalist Christian's side. Perhaps the thorn Paul had was that the OT was still in existence? Sorry Kejonn, but again, you're wrong.
Whenever a word can go more than one way, you obviously interpret it in the most negative light, because that is your stated aim and goal.
Here's your assignment for today David. Find one Jewish publication of the Tanach that has anything other than “evil” in Isa 45:7. Do you know most observant Jews have been learning written Hebrew since early childhood? Why do Christian scholars think they know more than Hebrew people?Quote Perhaps a bit of research on your part would show that exactly as Is said: Quote The hebrew word “rah” (for evil) could legitimately be rendered “calamity” or “distress”, The word “evil” isn't exactly the best translation of that word. That's because that word is primarily understood to mean “morally bad” whereas it can simply mean: causing ruin, injury, etc (calamity, distress)
But, people such as yourself close your eyes to anything that doesn't paint God in the worst possible way.
So says the person who uses the NWT. Strange, but it seems to be the only non-dynamic version of the OT that uses “bad” as opposed to “evil” for “ra” in Gen 2:9.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,02:03) Quote (Stu @ April 25 2008,18:54) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,17:06) Sure, but we are not talking about remission. I am talking about tumors disappearing with no sign of cancer left anywhere. Zilch. Gone.
That's what kejonn and I mean too. Not remission, complete disappearance of the tumour altogether. Happens at the same rate in atheists as in christians.Stuart
StuI dont think you understand. I am talking about the tumor is there one day and gone the next. With no trace of cancer and the Doctors are dumbfounded.
And this has happened in people who don't believe in Yahweh or even in any deity at all.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:15) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
I can't speak for Kejonn, but I have always stressed there are consquences for sin. God doesn't IMO need to punish evil explicitly, for evil will always turn upon itself; I believe in the concept of karma, or in as you sow, so shall you reap. Yet as most evil or good in humans is limited and finite the consequences of their actions are likewise limited and finite.
I criticize some scripture in effort to show others who proclaim it infallible and God's word, that it is a work of men and needs to be looked upon like any other theological work.
Quote (Cato @ April 25 2008,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 25 2008,19:15) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)
Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?
I have never said their beliefs in an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God are unacceptable.
The difference is they say because he is the big three Os, that God doesn’t punish sin and wickedness. So they Go about to criticize the scriptures.
I can't speak for Kejonn, but I have always stressed there are consquences for sin. God doesn't IMO need to punish evil explicitly, for evil will always turn upon itself; I believe in the concept of karma, or in as you sow, so shall you reap. Yet as most evil or good in humans is limited and finite the consequences of their actions are likewise limited and finite.
I criticize some scripture in effort to show others who proclaim it infallible and God's word, that it is a work of men and needs to be looked upon like any other theological work.
I will speak for myself. Yes, our actions and decisions have either negative or positive consequences.“Wickedness” has its own negative reward. If all you have to look forward to is some divine retribution in an afterlife for such wicked actions, then this life means less and less. Only Christians and Muslims seem to have that mindset. Even Jews realize God wants us to work on making this life better, not string up treasures in heaven.
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