God&#39;s portrayal in the Old Testament

Participant

Quote (Cato @ April 22 2008,13:30)

WJ,

You question Kevin and my views of God based on the premise that a God who doesn't step in to save us in case of mortal injury or damage is not really benign (your why doesn't he stop the rape example). Yes this seems uncaring, yet that is the price of having free will, the ability to make mistakes, if God steps in to constantly save us we will never learn or grow as a race. Yes tough lesson indeed. I believe God is looking long term, allowing evil now so we can learn to overcome such. Since I also believe that God does not give us a one life pass or fail test for salvation, we as both race and individuals have time to learn and rise above our base natures. God does not need to punish evil for evil brings evil unto itself as a consequence of its own action. All actions are ripe with consequence for such is the nature of existence and good begets good, evil begets evil. With time we learn to temper our indepence with wisdom and control; ignorance is overcome with knowledge and learning. God set up the universe on laws that carry on his will according to his plan and he has eternity to see it to fruition.

Your view of God, which I discern from the Bible, which you say you support in total, has God as an occasional participant, when his favored people are involved and gives them license to kill even infants when these infants are perceived enemies of the chosen. Your God is actively jealous, angry, wrathful and I might add makes mistakes. Your God even comes to earth to wrestle with a prophet, and empowers curses and negotiates with men. He desires sacrifices and takes offense easily. The system for salvation presented, “the born again bit”, leaves the vast number of human lives damned and it is patently unfair and too dependent on circumstances outside of the individual.

My view of God, may allow great evil in the world, but does not participate, condone or take active part therein. My God, I believe has a plan for the advancement of all humanity and allows time for this to take hold, your God evidently is losing most of humanity every day, condeming these lost souls to eternal damnation or destruction.

What it all really boils down to is you believe the Bible the word of God and so above critique and judgement, I believe it a work of a large number of men who wrote their view of what they thought God's word and so open to such discussion.

I do not, nor have I ever criticized my maker, only those portrayals that depict him like a pagan god of old rife with human emotion and failings. I think God is all knowing and all loving and plans for the success and growth of all his children, and he has eternity to see it through.

I find that you and seem to share very similar beliefs. I definitely note much Zoroastrian ideals in here, or perhaps these same ideals derive from being unbounded wholly by one single religious text in addition to looking within to realize the divine spark both within ourselves and within the rest of Creation.

Zarathushtra had the idea that we are a co-worker of God. We work along side of Him, perfecting His creation. We can look to Him for inspiration in our everyday walk of life, to enable us to further the cause of our fellow man and our planet. There is no color, there is no gender, there is just mankind.

April 22, 2008 at 10:38 pm#88140

Participant

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

Cato.

First, forget about him saving us. It’s the little innocent children that are being tormented and raped and hacked up. It is not meant to be benign. It is an honest look at reality, and apparently it is a reality that you do not want to consider or look at because it takes away from your own concept of an inactive, passive God that sits in the heavens and watches while these things happens even though he has the power to stop it.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

Yes this seems uncaring, yet that is the price of having free will, the ability to make mistakes, if God steps in to constantly save us we will never learn or grow as a race. Yes tough lesson indeed.

I knew the free will concept would come in somewhere. You do believe that now you are sounding like an orthodox Christian don’t you? Orthodox Christians believe that people that go to an eternal torment do so because of their free will. What free will choice do little children have that are being raped?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

I believe God is looking long term, allowing evil now so we can learn to overcome such.

Allowing evil now? So again, he just sits there, watches, and allows the horrors that we can’t even imagine go on in the dark, when he has the power to stop it even without pain or torment. So you think basically man can save himself? History has proven that man is not, nor ever will be able to save himself.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

Since I also believe that God does not give us a one life pass or fail test for salvation, we as both race and individuals have time to learn and rise above our base natures.

You are not looking at reality Cato. Be real. Do you honestly think that man in his own power will able to rid evil from this world? Here we are centuries from the evils that were committed to humanity by humanity and man still has not improved.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

God does not need to punish evil for evil brings evil unto itself as a consequence of its own action. All actions are ripe with consequence for such is the nature of existence and good begets good, evil begets evil.

And who created it all? Who is responsible for it? If God knew what would happen when he made everything, do you think he is not responsible for the outcome of what he created?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

With time we learn to temper our indepence with wisdom and control; ignorance is overcome with knowledge and learning.

Are you serious? Man has become far wiser and more knowledgeable than ever, yet do you see a decrease in the evils committed by man?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

God set up the universe on laws that carry on his will according to his plan and he has eternity to see it to fruition.

I cannot help but chuckle. But this is not funny. Do you see God’s will being accomplished when little children are being abused and are hungry and dieing of diseases in this world? Should God wait on man for eternity to fix this? How long does God who is all powerful, all knowing and all loving sit in the heavens without doing something?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

So again, how is your view of God any less evil? You believe that God is inactive and passive and just sits in the heavens watching all this evil in the earth, and because he gives men a free will he will do nothing to interfere. Yet he has the power to stop it, but instead sits by and watches the little children die of hunger and thirst and disease, or watches that little girl getting raped and turns his head.

Please tell me Cato why God who has all power and is infinite in love, doesn’t stop it?

Which is more evil? A passive God who just sits by watching? Or a God who interacts and punishes sin and evil?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

My view of God, may allow great evil in the world, but does not participate, condone or take active part therein.

Yes I know, and please tell me how that relieves God from the responsibility, when he has the power to stop it and does nothing?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

My God, I believe has a plan for the advancement of all humanity and allows time for this to take hold, your God evidently is losing most of humanity every day, condeming these lost souls to eternal damnation or destruction.

And in the mean time he folds his hands while humanity suffers, right?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

You have a right to your belief. However, I do not see how you think that your view of God sitting in the heavens passably watching the evil in this world and doing nothing when he has the power to, is less evil than the God of the OT.

And until you can answer this question you should consider that your criticism of the OT is unfounded.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,06:30)

Sorry, but your view of a passive God standing by watching that little girl being raped and murdered and doing nothing, when he has the power to, is no less evil that the active God of the OT.

Why can you not see and admit Cato that maybe God’s ways are higher than ours, and that there are things that we may not understand?

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! Rom 11:33

Which doeth great things past finding out; yea, and wonders without number. Job 9:10

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 55:9

April 23, 2008 at 11:51 am#88165

Cato

Participant

WJ,

How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented? That the Lord of Creation negotiated with his creation? That a being capable of creating the universe can say, oh I made a mistake let me kill everyone and start again? That God empowers curses by holy men to get bears to attack children, that he not only watches but orders the deaths of infants?

But I evidently am not allowed to question because I can't answer why God still allows evil to exist?
Your right, I don't know, I can guess, and I relayed my suppositions. In either case, God, however you and I see him, allows evil to exist, so your active God of justice doesn't stop your rape example either. Why doesn't he?

Sure he punishes the bad, after the fact, when they are dead. Beside the bad all the unbelievers as well, they all end up in God's garbage pile. Evidently the mass of non born again Christians and so the greatest proportion of humanity, are the wicked, for they are headed to eternal destruction or torment. God really stacks the deck against those poor souls born to the devout of other faiths like Islam.

As far as humanity, you give little credit, we were living in caves only a little while ago, we have come far in technology and science, perhaps we can come as far in wisdom and spirituality also. Do you think advancement in all areas of human existence come quickly?

But yes we are so irredeemingly evil that God is shortly going to lose the seals of revelation and the earth will grown under God's wrath but a select few will be saved. God evidently really did mess up creating man so all he can do is send Jesus to save some of us and as for the rest, well it was an interesting experiment. Any divine plan that loses much more of creation then it saves seem lacking and somewhat less then divine to me. But then God is beyond our understanding and so evidently is his plan and goals, except for the Bible of course, there God relayed his plans so that is all we need to know. We are not here to question, but to obey, we are too wicked and our minds too feeble to do otherwise so listen, believe and obey.

April 23, 2008 at 7:36 pm#88174

Participant

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?

Cato, you have a right to criticize all you like. But when you say that the acts of God in the OT scriptures are untrue based on your belief in God being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving, then you are making a fallacious argument.

For if God is all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving, and just sits in the heavens and watches little children being raped, tortured and murdered and does nothing about it when he has the power to, then that God is even more evil than the God of the OT that engages in men’s affairs and punishes evil, or there is just some things that go beyond our understanding of him, or he just doesn’t exist.

You have a right to criticize the OT if you want and say you just don’t believe it or it is just a work of man or there are contradictions, whatever you like, but when you say that God doesn’t do such things because of his nature being all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-loving, that is a fallacious argument.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

That the Lord of Creation negotiated with his creation? That a being capable of creating the universe can say, oh I made a mistake let me kill everyone and start again?

Again, believe as you will. But there is no difference in God killing and wiping out man through the flood than creating it all and leaving it to its own demise. If he had the power to stop the killing and genocide of the Jews for instance, and did nothing but watch from the heavens, how is that any more evil then drowning the creation?

Drowning would be more merciful than the tortures that went on in concentration camps, wouldn’t you think?

Again, do we understand this, or do we say “Maybe, his ways are higher than mine, as the heavens are above the earth so are his ways past my finding out”.

Or if you can’t say this, then you might as well be an Atheist. Logically they would have the better explanation, for they would say the reason God doesn’t stop the rape and murder is because he doesn’t exist.

But, obviously being a believer means that sometimes our human logic does not suffice to answer these hard questions. We cannot by our puny little logical minds grasp and fully understand an infinite God

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

That God empowers curses by holy men to get bears to attack children, that he not only watches but orders the deaths of infants?

But I evidently am not allowed to question because I can't answer why God still allows evil to exist?

Cato, obviously you are not listening. You can question all you want. But you are creating a fallacious argument when you say your God would not do the things in the OT because of your view of God having a passive nature.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

Your right, I don't know, I can guess, and I relayed my suppositions.

I am totally confused. You say now you do not know yet you just finished telling me why the God of the OT is not like your God.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

In either case, God, however you and I see him, allows evil to exist, so your active God of justice doesn't stop your rape example either. Why doesn't he?

Good grief. How many times have I said “His ways are past our finding out”, that I accept the fact there is a lot about the nature of my God I do not understand. I do not have the answer for this dilemma. I can speculate but that is all. God, will punish evil and will not let it continue perpetually. His loving nature requires this.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

Looks like you are creating stereotypes again. Not all born again Christians believe in a place of “Eternal Torment” I for one.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

As far as humanity, you give little credit, we were living in caves only a little while ago, we have come far in technology and science, perhaps we can come as far in wisdom and spirituality also

Again, knowledge and wisdom of men has increased maybe a billion times over, yet you tell me how man is any less evil than in the past. Give me some examples in OT times of the evils of men that are worse than what is happening today.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

Do you think advancement in all areas of human existence come quickly?

I don’t think mans advancements will change his nature. Only God can do that.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

But yes we are so irredeemingly evil that God is shortly going to lose the seals of revelation and the earth will grown under God's wrath but a select few will be saved.

Yes man is evil and God will punish evil, it is written both in the NT and the OT. Yet I believe eventually all will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus.

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

God evidently really did mess up creating man so all he can do is send Jesus to save some of us and as for the rest, well it was an interesting experiment. Any divine plan that loses much more of creation then it saves seem lacking and somewhat less then divine to me.

No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

But as far as God messing up, you have to put that same question to yourself. Did God who knows everything and has all power, plan to create everything and then leave it to its own demise knowing what it would become?

If he knew that men would be raping and killing innocent children and he had no plans to stop it, what do you think? Why would he do this? That would be like men taking dogs and putting them in a pen and watching them kill each other. Well, actually that would not be as bad as raping children, but you get the point.

Maybe we don’t know all the answers do we?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

But then God is beyond our understanding and so evidently is his plan and goals, except for the Bible of course, there God relayed his plans so that is all we need to know.

What, you do not believe he is beyond your puny mind? That maybe we know very little about his nature? That maybe God could preserve ancient writings about himself. Jesus believed in those writings. Why shouldn’t we?

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

We are not here to question, but to obey, we are too wicked and our minds too feeble to do otherwise so listen, believe and obey.

Who said not to question Cato? But, don’t forget to question the all-powerful, all-knowing, and all loving God about the little girls in this world who are being raped and murdered while he sits in the heavens watching, and has the power to do something but does it not. Don’t forget to question that he sits by and watches humanity dieing of hunger and thirst and does nothing.

Do you have the answer Cato?

Then it may be true that the things that happened in the OT could also be God.

Because there is no difference in God being active in punishing and judging sin, and just standing idly by while men commit these atrocities against innocent little children, when he has the power to stop it.

For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 5:9

Blessings!

April 23, 2008 at 10:13 pm#88176

WhatIsTrue

Participant

WJ wrote:

Quote

No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.

If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:

1. What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?

2. What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15?

Thanks for your time!

April 23, 2008 at 10:43 pm#88178

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

WJ wrote:

Quote

No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.

If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:

1. What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?

2. What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15?

Thanks for your time!

Hi WhatIsTrue

You must think you have membership of some privileged club to write this. By this logic your god will condemn 2/3 of the world population, including the ones who shout “God is great' in Arabic.

Stuart

April 23, 2008 at 11:13 pm#88180

Participant

WJ,

After reading that last post, I just have to ask: outside of the bible, is Yahweh doing anything more than the god Cato speaks of?

April 24, 2008 at 5:33 am#88194

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

WJ wrote:
No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.

Why, do you think that it is impossible for an all-powerful God? Doesn’t the scriptures read…

Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me? (Jer. 32:27)

For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Luke 1:37)

So if it is God’s will for everyone to be saved and it is possible for him to save all, don’t you think he will do it?

Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. Do you think he failed? The Bible says that he died for the “Sin” of the world! Was his death in vain?

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the *iniquity of us all*. Isa. 53:6

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22)

I don’t fully understand how this will happen, but I believe he is capable and will have all men to be saved.

I realize that this is unpopular to the traditional teachings of most churches today. But the concept that the Father God would cast the souls of men, woman and children into a lake of fire where they are tormented forever and ever in excruciating pain that’s beyond belief is a damnable Babylonian heresy from the pit of hell itself.

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. (Rev 21:5, 6)

Do you think he will make all things new, except for a little remote spot in the universe where 2/3 (billions of souls) of humanity are in agonizing pain forever and ever.

If so then he didn’t wipe away all tears did he? Then it is not true that there will be no pain anymore?
This is off topic, but since this thread is about the OT. Tell you what, you show me one place in the OT scriptures that even hints at a place of eternal torment.

Every major doctrine can be found in the OT except “Eternal Torment”, why not?

Ask yourself this question, why wouldn’t God tell Adam if you eat of the fruit of the tree you will suffer forever and ever in a burning lake of fire.
Its one thing for God to wipe out a human race because of his judgments, or even stand by and watch little children being raped without doing nothing, but it is another for God to make billions of souls suffer in such pain forever and ever, especially since Jesus died for them, didn't he?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:

Well if it was the truth then I guess smug it is. But it is not the truth for I believe the former.

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?

It sure isn’t for fire insurance is it? If this is why you serve God then maybe you should take a closer look at your motives. We are Christians and serve him because we love him.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21)

There is a crown of his glory awaiting every believer who overcomes, but even that is second place to our love for him. Those who follow him and seek for him as a bride for her bridegroom, will make ready for his appearing so they can enter into the marriage supper of the Lamb. Is this not enough reason to serve him?

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15? Thanks for your time!

I have no problem that men will be cast into a lake of fire at the judgment, but there is no teaching in the scriptures that it is forever and ever.

Paul said…

Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Cor. 3:13-15)

God is a consuming fire!

Blessings!

April 24, 2008 at 5:54 am#88196

Participant

Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,11:13)

WJ,

After reading that last post, I just have to ask: outside of the bible, is Yahweh doing anything more than the god Cato speaks of?

kejonn

I cannot speak for Cato's God or his relationship with him. But, is God alive and moving in my life and those around me?

Absolutely yes. I have witnessed 2 documented cancer patients healed from cancer in the last few weeks.

About a month ago, a little 5 year old boy was on his death bed, parents were called in for they didnt expect him to live through the night, he had a serious heart condition and fell in a coma, the doctors said that even if he came out of the coma that he would have brain damage. Our church prayed and believed God's word and the following sunday he was in church, and there was nothing wrong with him.

Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is alive and well.

So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?

To be honest, I dont know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his home town and the scriptures said he couldnt do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

So Yes, the Lord is working in my life daily. I feel his presence and hear his voice everyday.

Blessings!

April 24, 2008 at 8:04 am#88200

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,17:54)

Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is alive and well.

So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?

You might also ask whether 'he' had anything whatever to do with the recovery of this child.

Why do atheists enjoy spontaneous recovery at exactly the same rates as christians?

Stuart

April 24, 2008 at 11:13 am#88206

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)

Quote (kejonn @ April 24 2008,11:13)

WJ,

After reading that last post, I just have to ask: outside of the bible, is Yahweh doing anything more than the god Cato speaks of?

kejonn

I cannot speak for Cato's God or his relationship with him. But, is God alive and moving in my life and those around me?

Absolutely yes. I have witnessed 2 documented cancer patients healed from cancer in the last few weeks.

But you do know that cancer remission is equally prevalent amongst other religious adherents, as well as those who do not hold to any certain belief system, right? So while it is awesome these people were healed, it is no more proof that Yahweh did anything than Allah. Our bodies are awesome machines.

Quote

Again, this is great! But what, beyond your faith in such, leads you to belief this is Yahweh in action? What of the millions who do not survive health ordeals where people have prayed for them fervently? When this happens, the typical answer is “it was God's will”.

Quote

Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is alive and well.

So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?

To be honest, I dont know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his home town and the scriptures said he couldnt do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

So Yes, the Lord is working in my life daily. I feel his presence and hear his voice everyday.

Blessings!

That is fine WJ. But a Muslim can also speak of Allah's presence in their life. A Hindu can make similar claims about Brahman. Does your experiences and faith invalidate the reality of Allah and Brahman?

April 24, 2008 at 11:17 am#88208

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,00:54)

So you might ask why doesn't he heal them all?

To be honest, I dont know. It may have something to do with unbelief. Jesus went into his home town and the scriptures said he couldnt do many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

This can be a dangerous mindset, if you describe unbelief as a lack of strong faith. Such feelings will result is guilt amongst those where healing has not taken place. Why should Yahweh need the belief of a human to perform miracles? Whose faith enabled him to create the universe?

April 24, 2008 at 11:33 am#88210

Cato

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36)

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?

Then answer how a supreme being capable of the feat of creating the universe can make mistakes?
Gen 6:6-7
The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.”

Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing.

April 24, 2008 at 11:50 am#88211

Participant

Quote (Cato @ April 24 2008,06:33)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 24 2008,07:36)

Quote (Cato @ April 23 2008,23:51)

How are my criticisms of a collection of works that say God came down to earth and wrestled with a man unwarrented?

Either this is untrue or God is less then all powerfull all knowing.

Quite. And since Christians say that humanity is getting more morally corrupt with the passing of time, it also seems that the flood accomplished absolutely nothing more than divine wrath and retribution. Tyrants kill and destroy those who do not serve them.

April 24, 2008 at 12:00 pm#88212

Participant

Really Cato, Yahweh could not help it. It seems he never could create a human that did not express both good and evil, so he was full of regret.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things.

April 24, 2008 at 1:29 pm#88216

WhatIsTrue

Participant

Quote (Stu @ April 24 2008,05:43)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

WJ wrote:

Quote

No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.

If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:

1. What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?

2. What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15?

Thanks for your time!

Hi WhatIsTrue

You must think you have membership of some privileged club to write this. By this logic your god will condemn 2/3 of the world population, including the ones who shout “God is great' in Arabic.

Stuart

Stuart,

My questions were based on the premise in the quoted statement. I did not state anything about my personal beliefs whatsoever.

Don't jump to conclusions!

April 24, 2008 at 2:11 pm#88217

WhatIsTrue

Participant

WJ wrote:

Quote

Why, do you think that [universal salvation] is impossible for an all-powerful God?

No, I do not think such a feat is impossible for an all-powerful God.

WJ wrote:

Quote

So if it is God’s will for everyone to be saved and it is possible for him to save all, don’t you think he will do it?

Certainly, if that is his will.

WJ wrote:

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Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost. Do you think he failed? The Bible says that he died for the “Sin” of the world! Was his death in vain?

I guess it depends on your point of view. From the vantage point of what we can see in this world, Jesus most certainly failed. Many of the people who have lived since he died never heard of him, and many more were born in cultures where Christianity played as much significance as Hinduism plays in the US. So, if salvation is dependent on “believing in him” in this life, the vast majority of humanity is lost, but, if “salvation” is dependent on some future “pardon” that has not been revealed to us in this life, then a 100% success rate is still possible.

WJ wrote:

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I realize that this is unpopular to the traditional teachings of most churches today.

Unpopular?!?!?! I think that if you walked into a hundred churches and made such statements, you would be hounded out of at least 99.

How then is it possible that scripture even hints at such things if practically no one in orthodox Christianity believes it? Is scripture that indecipherable, or is contempary Christianity that corrupt?

WJ wrote:

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Do you think he will make all things new, except for a little remote spot in the universe where 2/3 (billions of souls) of humanity are in agonizing pain forever and ever.

If so then he didn’t wipe away all tears did he? Then it is not true that there will be no pain anymore?

Agreed.

WJ wrote:

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This is off topic, but since this thread is about the OT. Tell you what, you show me one place in the OT scriptures that even hints at a place of eternal torment.

Every major doctrine can be found in the OT except “Eternal Torment”, why not?

Agreed again. Though, as you likely remember, I would argue that there is no Trinity doctrine in the OT either.

WJ wrote:

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If [fire insurance] is why you serve God then maybe you should take a closer look at your motives. We are Christians and serve him because we love him.

Agreed again. But, consider this:

Virtually every time the “gospel” message is delivered, it is presented as a choice between two alternatives. Either one trusts in Jesus for salvation, or one will suffer “eternal separation” from God. Nearly all Christian conversions seem to be about being saved from the consequences of personal sin. I would posit that the vast majority of Christians started off their faith as a form of “fire insurance”. Many move past that and are motivated out of their love for God, but that generally comes later, if at all.

Incidentally, how is this different than what Kejonn, Cato, and others promote? They essentially subscribe to believing in God for positive reasons, like wonder, gratitude, or love, whereas Christians are often warning unbelievers to believe in Jesus “or else”!

What makes their beliefs unacceptable, if in the end, you believe that they will be saved anyway?

By the way, thanks for being one of the few Christians on here who actually try to answer some of the hard questions. I am sure that it would be much easier to ingore this section of the forum altogether.

April 24, 2008 at 6:37 pm#88224

Not3in1

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,02:11)

I agree!

Thank you, Keith. I'm listening in these days. Praying. Pondering all that is being said and debated. I'll admit, my faith is fragile. So fragile that I cannot begin to say what I believe in anymore.

But you do have a way of presenting your facts and feelings in such a way that promotes actual discussion (not short attackes like some have in the past). This is beneficial for everyone – including those of us who are listening in. Also, the respect you have for your fellows is commendable!

Love to you,
Mandy

April 24, 2008 at 11:08 pm#88228

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 25 2008,01:29)

Quote (Stu @ April 24 2008,05:43)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 24 2008,10:13)

WJ wrote:

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No actually I believe Jesus came to save to the uttermost, 100%. He left the 99 to go get the one. That’s a 100%.

Do you mean to suggest a belief in universal salvation with this statement, or are you just saying that Jesus will save 100% of the people he intends to save.

If you mean the latter, that's seems like a smug thing to say to those who are unbelievers, but if you mean the former, I have two questions for you:

1. What is the point of being a Christian now if all will be saved in the end?

2. What is your understanding of Rev 20:14-15?

Thanks for your time!

Hi WhatIsTrue

You must think you have membership of some privileged club to write this. By this logic your god will condemn 2/3 of the world population, including the ones who shout “God is great' in Arabic.

Stuart

Stuart,

My questions were based on the premise in the quoted statement. I did not state anything about my personal beliefs whatsoever.

Don't jump to conclusions!

OK. Sorry about that.

Do you think you are a member of a special club that is exempt from the 2/3 of the population that god will condemn?
What of those who shout “god is great” in Arabic?

Stuart

April 24, 2008 at 11:10 pm#88229