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Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:15) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,18:51) Hi Mandy: I have already stated that I thought that Elisha's response was quite severe which is all that I can say.
Kevin wanted someone to address the scriptures and so I have done this to the best of my ability. I did not say I was trying justify Elisha's response. I was just trying to understand why he may have responded the way that he did.
Did Yahweh have to honor the curse? did Yahweh send the bears, or did Yahweh? Its less about Elisha's — a human — response and all about what Yahweh supposedly did. Yahweh, as God, should be above human responses.
Hi KJ:God apparently honored the curse that Elisha put on those mocking him.
Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,19:53) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:15) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,18:51) Hi Mandy: I have already stated that I thought that Elisha's response was quite severe which is all that I can say.
Kevin wanted someone to address the scriptures and so I have done this to the best of my ability. I did not say I was trying justify Elisha's response. I was just trying to understand why he may have responded the way that he did.
Did Yahweh have to honor the curse? did Yahweh send the bears, or did Yahweh? Its less about Elisha's — a human — response and all about what Yahweh supposedly did. Yahweh, as God, should be above human responses.
Hi KJ:God apparently honored the curse that Elisha put on those mocking him.
So if a groupof children calls a pastor “baldy” would you expect the pastor to curse them and then see the children die for it?Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:59) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,19:53) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:15) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,18:51) Hi Mandy: I have already stated that I thought that Elisha's response was quite severe which is all that I can say.
Kevin wanted someone to address the scriptures and so I have done this to the best of my ability. I did not say I was trying justify Elisha's response. I was just trying to understand why he may have responded the way that he did.
Did Yahweh have to honor the curse? did Yahweh send the bears, or did Yahweh? Its less about Elisha's — a human — response and all about what Yahweh supposedly did. Yahweh, as God, should be above human responses.
Hi KJ:God apparently honored the curse that Elisha put on those mocking him.
So if a groupof children calls a pastor “baldy” would you expect the pastor to curse them and then see the children die for it?
I as a pastor wouldn't, but there would have to be some sort of punishment to insure that they would not mock, but respect a pastor.I don't know KJ., it may be that God responded this way to make an example of them so that others would understand that God saw this as a serious matter.
Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished?
Also, the judgment in the OT was final. In my understanding. People in the OT who died in their sins, will not be resurrected to incur further judgment.
Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,20:15) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:59) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,19:53) Quote (kejonn @ April 21 2008,12:15) Quote (942767 @ April 20 2008,18:51) Hi Mandy: I have already stated that I thought that Elisha's response was quite severe which is all that I can say.
Kevin wanted someone to address the scriptures and so I have done this to the best of my ability. I did not say I was trying justify Elisha's response. I was just trying to understand why he may have responded the way that he did.
Did Yahweh have to honor the curse? did Yahweh send the bears, or did Yahweh? Its less about Elisha's — a human — response and all about what Yahweh supposedly did. Yahweh, as God, should be above human responses.
Hi KJ:God apparently honored the curse that Elisha put on those mocking him.
So if a groupof children calls a pastor “baldy” would you expect the pastor to curse them and then see the children die for it?
I as a pastor wouldn't, but there would have to be some sort of punishment to insure that they would not mock, but respect a pastor.
Why not death? It seemed OK in the OT, why not now? What is different?Quote I don't know KJ., it may be that God responded this way to make an example of them so that others would understand that God saw this as a serious matter.
What if the youth that called you “baldy” never read that passage? Would you expect death to be a good example for them?Quote Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished?
Depends what the pastor is being mocked for. In any case, mocking should never result in death.Quote Also, the judgment in the OT was final. In my understanding. People in the OT who died in their sins, will not be resurrected to incur further judgment.
Can you provide evidence of this? Why would Yahweh offer some promises of eternal life and others not?Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,11:51) And so, I guess that you would agree that it is not right for someone to mock God or His prophets. If so, what do you think the penalty for this should be?
Well, I certainly wouldn't curse them and cut them off from the living. After all, they were only children. Sometimes children make mistakes and then repent. But this senerio left no room for forgiveness!Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,12:14) What Father would not want the very best for His child?
What about the all the children he put to (or ordered to be put to) death due to either something someone else did, or because they happen to mock someone?I understand your view, bro, don't get me wrong. I'm only trying to get you to see the *other* view that is being presented here.
In other words, if we lived in the OT times, you probably would have already been put to death for the sin and wickedness that you comitted in your life. But because God saw fit to send Jesus (supposedly) this has caused him to stop slaughtering people. It just doesn't make sense. The same God of the OT is still alive and has not changed, according to his own Word.
I am only left to believe that he still feels anger towards the wicked, but because of Jesus he won't slaughter our children.
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,13:15) Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished? 
Why does there have to be a “punishment”?Why cannot the children be instructed to say, “Sorry” and never do it again.
Good grief.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:36) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,12:14) What Father would not want the very best for His child?
What about the all the children he put to (or ordered to be put to) death due to either something someone else did, or because they happen to mock someone?I understand your view, bro, don't get me wrong. I'm only trying to get you to see the *other* view that is being presented here.
In other words, if we lived in the OT times, you probably would have already been put to death for the sin and wickedness that you comitted in your life. But because God saw fit to send Jesus (supposedly) this has caused him to stop slaughtering people. It just doesn't make sense. The same God of the OT is still alive and has not changed, according to his own Word.
I am only left to believe that he still feels anger towards the wicked, but because of Jesus he won't slaughter our children.
Hi Mandy:Ok suppose that judgment day has come and that the church is raptured out of here. How do you propose that God should save the children of parents that are unsaved?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:37) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,13:15) Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished? Why does there have to be a “punishment”?Why cannot the children be instructed to say, “Sorry” and never do it again.
Good grief.
Hi Mandy:If that would work, that would be great. I have already stated that the response that Elisha made was difficult to understand, and so why do you keep pressing me on this. Maybe the questions should be directed to the Rabbis. Perhaps they can give you a better undestanding of this.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:36) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,12:14) What Father would not want the very best for His child?
What about the all the children he put to (or ordered to be put to) death due to either something someone else did, or because they happen to mock someone?I understand your view, bro, don't get me wrong. I'm only trying to get you to see the *other* view that is being presented here.
In other words, if we lived in the OT times, you probably would have already been put to death for the sin and wickedness that you comitted in your life. But because God saw fit to send Jesus (supposedly) this has caused him to stop slaughtering people. It just doesn't make sense. The same God of the OT is still alive and has not changed, according to his own Word.
I am only left to believe that he still feels anger towards the wicked, but because of Jesus he won't slaughter our children.
Hi Mandy:I'm sorry if you don't seem to understand. If you want your children to be saved, then obey God's commandments, and those children who are under God's law through you will be spared.
If you don't want to obey, and teach your children God's principles then if your children die physically in the judgment that is not God's fault but yours.
Am getting off work in a little while and so I have to go for the night, but I will try to answer your questions as soon as possible.
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,15:18) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:36) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,12:14) What Father would not want the very best for His child?
What about the all the children he put to (or ordered to be put to) death due to either something someone else did, or because they happen to mock someone?I understand your view, bro, don't get me wrong. I'm only trying to get you to see the *other* view that is being presented here.
In other words, if we lived in the OT times, you probably would have already been put to death for the sin and wickedness that you comitted in your life. But because God saw fit to send Jesus (supposedly) this has caused him to stop slaughtering people. It just doesn't make sense. The same God of the OT is still alive and has not changed, according to his own Word.
I am only left to believe that he still feels anger towards the wicked, but because of Jesus he won't slaughter our children.
Hi Mandy:Ok suppose that judgment day has come and that the church is raptured out of here. How do you propose that God should save the children of parents that are unsaved?
By revealing his loving self to them and allowing them to make their own free-will choice? That sounds fair, doesn't it?Goodness, if I had to stand or fall based on my father's sins, well, I should just cash it in right now!
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,15:23) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:37) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,13:15) Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished? Why does there have to be a “punishment”?Why cannot the children be instructed to say, “Sorry” and never do it again.
Good grief.
Hi Mandy:If that would work, that would be great. I have already stated that the response that Elisha made was difficult to understand, and so why do you keep pressing me on this. Maybe the questions should be directed to the Rabbis. Perhaps they can give you a better undestanding of this.
I didn't realize I was “pressing you”, sorry. I'm only trying to understand why you don't see anything wrong with what the bible is teaching here. You seem to think it is OK for God to supposedly act this way? And all I'm saying is potentially the bible writer's got it wrong? Maybe God is not this way at all but they have added this according to their bias'? Is it possible? I think it is. Otherwise God's behavior seems very unloving towards his children. Otherwise we are better parents than he is!Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,15:32) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 21 2008,14:36) Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,12:14) What Father would not want the very best for His child?
What about the all the children he put to (or ordered to be put to) death due to either something someone else did, or because they happen to mock someone?I understand your view, bro, don't get me wrong. I'm only trying to get you to see the *other* view that is being presented here.
In other words, if we lived in the OT times, you probably would have already been put to death for the sin and wickedness that you comitted in your life. But because God saw fit to send Jesus (supposedly) this has caused him to stop slaughtering people. It just doesn't make sense. The same God of the OT is still alive and has not changed, according to his own Word.
I am only left to believe that he still feels anger towards the wicked, but because of Jesus he won't slaughter our children.
Hi Mandy:I'm sorry if you don't seem to understand. If you want your children to be saved, then obey God's commandments, and those children who are under God's law through you will be spared.
If you don't want to obey, and teach your children God's principles then if your children die physically in the judgment that is not God's fault but yours.
And this is the exact response that is demanded if you believen the dried ink!According to God's own word, bro, I don't need to teach my children to know God at all!! They can know him by his creation.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,18:09) I concur ST. The Earth had a gene pool problem, and the messianic line needed to be preserved.
I guess when you are dealing with religious fantasy you can make up anything you want. the story of Noah's ark is a ridiculous claim to make with a stright face. Have you considered why conservation programmes to save endangered species pretty much always fail whe you get down to the last few breeding pairs? It is because there is not enough genetic diversity remaining in the available gene pool, and also you lose the instinctive survival behaviours by putting the animals in an artificial situation.Heard of in-breeding? It's the main biological reason that the ark myth is a fantasy story.
Stuart
Quote (942767 @ April 21 2008,13:15) Do you agree that it is not right for anyone to mock a pastor? What do you believe that the penalty for this should be? Should it be left unpunished?
Mocking is what you do to bring down a dictator. Those leaders who truly believe in people and appreciate the gift of humour should never consider a bit of fun-poking as mockery. It is only the paranoid who see it as such.I think any pastor who said the things 94whatever says should be subjected to 'mockery'. If they view it as mockery then they are not true leaders.
It alarms me when people with brutal opinions like 94…'s claim a position of pastoral leadership. In my humble opinion they are not fit.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 21 2008,00:47) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 20 2008,18:09) I concur ST. The Earth had a gene pool problem, and the messianic line needed to be preserved.
I guess when you are dealing with religious fantasy you can make up anything you want. the story of Noah's ark is a ridiculous claim to make with a stright face. Have you considered why conservation programmes to save endangered species pretty much always fail whe you get down to the last few breeding pairs? It is because there is not enough genetic diversity remaining in the available gene pool, and also you lose the instinctive survival behaviours by putting the animals in an artificial situation.Heard of in-breeding? It's the main biological reason that the ark myth is a fantasy story.
Stuart
But Yahweh probably intervened and made sure all would work out.Hi All:
Seeking God in prayer for understanding relative to mocking of Elisha, I have taken another look at the scriptures relative to this incident and find that they do not say that the bears killed the children. I will paste the scripture below so that we can take a look at what it actually says:
Quote 2Ki 2:23 ¶ And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.It actually states that the bears came out of the woods and TARE FORTY AND TWO CHILDREN of them.
The following copied from the condordance on the Blue Letter Bible Site:
Quote Printed from the Blue Letter Bible
Lexicon Results for baqa` (Strong's H1234) Hebrew for H1234 בקע Transliteration
baqa`
Pronunciationbä·kah' (Key)
Part of Speech
verbRoot Word (Etymology)
a primitive root
TWOT Reference
271Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to split, cleave, break open, divide, break through, rip up, break up, tear
a) (Qal)
1) to cleave, cleave open
2) to break through, break into
b) (Niphal)
1) to be cleft, be rent open, be split open
2) to be broken into
c) (Piel)
1) to cleave, cut to pieces, rend open
2) to break through, break down
d) (Pual)
1) to be ripped open, be torn open
2) to be rent
3) to be broken into
e) (Hiphil)
1) to break into
2) to break through
f) (Hophal) to be broken into
g) (Hithpael) to burst (themselves) open, cleave asunder
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 51 AV — cleave 10, …up 9, divide 5, rent 4, … out 3, break through 3, rend 3, breach 2, asunder 2, hatch 2, brake 1, burst 1, cleft 1, break forth 1, pieces 1, tare 1, tear 1, win 1 Gesenius's Lexicon
Quote Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) – Cite This Source – Share This
tear2 Audio Help /tɛər/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[tair] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation verb, tore or (Archaic) tare, torn or (Archaic) tare, tear·ing; noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to pull apart or in pieces by force, esp. so as to leave ragged or irregular edges.
2. to pull or snatch violently; wrench away with force: to tear wrappings from a package; to tear a book from someone's hands.
3. to distress greatly: anguish that tears the heart.
4. to divide or disrupt: a country torn by civil war.
5. to wound or injure by or as if by rending; lacerate.
6. to produce or effect by rending: to tear a hole in one's coat.
7. to remove by force or effort: to be unable to tear oneself from a place.
–verb (used without object) 8. to become torn.
9. to make a tear or rent.
10. to move or behave with force, violent haste, or energy: The wind tore through the trees; cars tearing up and down the highway; I was tearing around all afternoon trying to find sandals for the beach.
–noun 11. the act of tearing.
12. a rent or fissure.
13. a rage or passion; violent flurry or outburst.
14. Informal. a spree.And so, this could mean that the bears simply scared them to possibly wounding them, but it does not say that the bears killed them, and so, whatever the case, I don't believe that they will be mocking God's prophet after this.
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