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Here's a question for people to answer: if Yahweh appeared to Abraham, Moses, the whole of the nation of Israel, etc., why would he expect us to believe in him based solely on a book? After all, they had the real encounters according to the bible. So Abraham truly had less faith than those who accept him by believing in the bible alone because he supposedly had a real life encounter with Yahweh.
The same can be said of Jesus. Thomas doubted so he showed him. He appeared to others as well. Paul was persecuting Christians until Jesus supposedly spoke with him.
Yet all we are left with is a collection of mostly anonymous writings.
Quote (david @ April 16 2008,18:50) They would enjoy blessings if they kept God’s commandments, but they would bring suffering upon themselves if they rejected his righteous ways.
This is just another idea that leads me further away from trusting what the bible says about God.The Law was given to rouse disobedience. What we cannot do/should not do, we want to do all the more! In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey! And if we don't obey we will suffer unspeakable, horrific consequences.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 17 2008,06:35) Quote (david @ April 16 2008,18:50) They would enjoy blessings if they kept God’s commandments, but they would bring suffering upon themselves if they rejected his righteous ways.
This is just another idea that leads me further away from trusting what the bible says about God.The Law was given to rouse disobedience. What we cannot do/should not do, we want to do all the more! In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey! And if we don't obey we will suffer unspeakable, horrific consequences.
No, Mandy:God knew that we could not keep the Law to perfection without making mistakes, but that does not mean that we should not be punished if we disobey the law defiantely.
If they were striving to obey the Law in the OT, and they made a mistake then they had to bring a sin offering, and on the day of atonement the High Priest offered blood for his own sins and for the sins of the nation of Israel.
The punishment for disobedience was for disobeying defiantly.
In the NT, as born again Christians we strive to obey and when we make a mistake, we repent and the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.
WE make mistates both in the OT and the NT and that is why it is said the salvation is by Faith and not of works (they nor we obeyed God without making mistakes) and so this is what is meant by grace.
Quote (942767 @ April 16 2008,20:54) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 17 2008,06:35) Quote (david @ April 16 2008,18:50) They would enjoy blessings if they kept God’s commandments, but they would bring suffering upon themselves if they rejected his righteous ways.
This is just another idea that leads me further away from trusting what the bible says about God.The Law was given to rouse disobedience. What we cannot do/should not do, we want to do all the more! In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey! And if we don't obey we will suffer unspeakable, horrific consequences.
No, Mandy:God knew that we could not keep the Law to perfection without making mistakes, but that does not mean that we should not be punished if we disobey the law defiantely.
Do you follow Torah? If not, you are defiantly disobeying Yahweh.Quote If they were striving to obey the Law in the OT, and they made a mistake then they had to bring a sin offering, and on the day of atonement the High Priest offered blood for his own sins and for the sins of the nation of Israel. The punishment for disobedience was for disobeying defiantly.
Show us this “defiantly” portion. I don't see it.Quote In the NT, as born again Christians we strive to obey and when we make a mistake, we repent and the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.
I challenge you to find one passage in the NT which speaks towards “washing away our sin”. It is a Christian phrase with as much biblical support as “trinity” and “rapture”.Quote WE make mistakes both in the OT and the NT and that is why it is said the salvation is by Faith and not of works (they nor we obeyed God without making mistakes) and so this is what is meant by grace.
But why must we have faith based on a book written almost 2000 years ago? Why did Jesus show doubting Thomas but leave us to believe based on ancient words? Why did Jesus appear to Paul, but only give us a book?Quote (942767 @ April 17 2008,13:54) The punishment for disobedience was for disobeying defiantly.
But the children and babies didn't disobey and yet they were not spared either.I've noticed Nick has taken a break today – maybe he's had with us?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2008,22:18) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2008,13:54) The punishment for disobedience was for disobeying defiantly.
But the children and babies didn't disobey and yet they were not spared either.I've noticed Nick has taken a break today – maybe he's had with us?
Perhaps. Or maybe he has stopped to study what he has been denying for too long. I note t8 has not posted here much in the lat few months…Just looking at the ten commandments. I'm wondering why others think the tenth commandment is in there.
The tenth commandment, directed against coveting, was unenforceable by human authorities. I think this testifies to the divine origin of the law, for no human law-making body would have made a law that could not be enforced by means of sanctions if violated. What would be the point. By this law, Jehovah God gave each Israelite the responsibility to be his own policeman—if he would have a good conscience. (Exodus 20:17) Similarly, among the works of the flesh that would bar one from inheriting God’s Kingdom are “jealousy” and “envies”—reactions against which sanctions are not enforceable by human judges. (Galatians 5:19-21) But to hold a good conscience, we must avoid these.
Quote I challenge you to find one passage in the NT which speaks towards “washing away our sin”. It is a Christian phrase with as much biblical support as “trinity” and “rapture”. good point.
But what I had said was: “the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.”
And what the Bible says: “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”“Cleanses,” “washes.” You're right. That is a substantial difference. Duly noted.
That's 1 John 1:7.
Quote I challenge you to find one passage in the NT which speaks towards “washing away our sin”. Quote Perhaps. Or maybe he has stopped to study what he has been denying for too long. I note t8 has not posted here much in the lat few months…
T8 is like that. He comes and goes. Sometimes he posts for weeks and then you don't hear from him for months and months it seems.Quote What we cannot do/should not do, we want to do all the more! In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey! I'm pretty certain you know your children will not listen to everything you say. Yet, for you not to tell them anything would be chaos and disaster for them as well.
David,
There is a huge difference in what you are implying and what has happened in the OT.My children know the rules of this house, but they certainly will not lose their heads because they disobey me.
Quote I believe this is exactly what Nick is doing when he reads our posts about all the killing at the command of God. Just out of curiosity, Mandy, on a slightly related topic, how do you feel about the “war of the great day of God the almighty” or armageddon?
Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life? Or, must we accept wickedness for all time? Must the righteous suffer at the hands of the wicked forever?
Anyway, my only real question to you is: Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life?Quote David,
There is a huge difference in what you are implying and what has happened in the OT.My children know the rules of this house, but they certainly will not lose their heads because they disobey me.
Yes, I know. But my point was that you said:
In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey!
But does it seem silly when every parent in the world does the same thing?Quote (david @ April 17 2008,17:15) Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life? Or, must we accept wickedness for all time? Must the righteous suffer at the hands of the wicked forever?
Suicide bombers make a decision about who is fit for life. The grieving loved ones of those who are killed by them must wonder whether they should have been victims of the 'wickedness' motivated by the self-same OT and god that you worship.Stuart
Quote (david @ April 17 2008,17:17) Quote David,
There is a huge difference in what you are implying and what has happened in the OT.My children know the rules of this house, but they certainly will not lose their heads because they disobey me.
Yes, I know. But my point was that you said:
In seems silly for God to demand we obey the very law he put into place that he knew ahead of time (for those that believe this) that we could not obey!
But does it seem silly when every parent in the world does the same thing?
I don't put rules in place that my children cannot obey or better yet, that go against basic human drives/desires.In other words, I'm not going to put a chocolate bar in the middle of the room (or a tree in the middle of the garden) and tell my child that it is good (knowledge of good and evil) and then forbid him from eating it (or partaking of the fruit).
Quote (david @ April 17 2008,17:15) Quote I believe this is exactly what Nick is doing when he reads our posts about all the killing at the command of God. Just out of curiosity, Mandy, on a slightly related topic, how do you feel about the “war of the great day of God the almighty” or armageddon?
Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life? Or, must we accept wickedness for all time? Must the righteous suffer at the hands of the wicked forever?
Anyway, my only real question to you is: Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life?
Do you know of any parent who would decide which of his disobedient children would be fit for life and which should be slaughtered?Quote (david @ April 17 2008,00:15) Quote I believe this is exactly what Nick is doing when he reads our posts about all the killing at the command of God. Just out of curiosity, Mandy, on a slightly related topic, how do you feel about the “war of the great day of God the almighty” or armageddon?
Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life? Or, must we accept wickedness for all time? Must the righteous suffer at the hands of the wicked forever?
Anyway, my only real question to you is: Is it wrong of him to say who is and who is not fit for life?
Butting in, but we've seen the “righteous” suffering at the hands of the “wicked” throughout history. Is Yahweh waiting for the 4 billionth “righteous” person to suffer before he says “enough is enough”?Quote (david @ April 17 2008,00:03) Quote I challenge you to find one passage in the NT which speaks towards “washing away our sin”. It is a Christian phrase with as much biblical support as “trinity” and “rapture”. good point.
But what I had said was: “the blood of Jesus washes away our sin.”
And what the Bible says: “the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.”“Cleanses,” “washes.” You're right. That is a substantial difference. Duly noted.
Close but no cigar. The “cleanse” here is related to ritual cleansing, as in the case of the various pronouncements of being “unclean” in the OT. The word for “cleanse” here is “katharizo”- Mat 8:3 Jesus stretched out His hand and touched him, saying, “I am willing; be cleansed.” And immediately his leprosy was cleansed (“katharizo”).
Mat 10:8 “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse (“katharizo”) the lepers, cast out demons. Freely you received, freely give.
Mat 11:5 the BLIND RECEIVE SIGHT and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed (“katharizo”) and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the POOR HAVE THE GOSPEL PREACHED TO THEM.
Compare this to the word typically used for “wash” which is “nipto”
- Mat 6:17 “But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash (“nipto”) your face
Joh 13:5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash (“nipto”) the disciples' feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.
So the sense of “katharizo” relates to the ability of the sacrificial blood to make an “unclean” person “clean”.
Quote (kejonn @ April 17 2008,15:20) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2008,22:18) Quote (942767 @ April 17 2008,13:54) The punishment for disobedience was for disobeying defiantly.
But the children and babies didn't disobey and yet they were not spared either.I've noticed Nick has taken a break today – maybe he's had with us?
Perhaps. Or maybe he has stopped to study what he has been denying for too long. I note t8 has not posted here much in the lat few months…
Maybe he is just waiting for some of us to go away.Tim
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