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Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,11:08) Quote (kejonn @ April 14 2008,10:30) Is this Islam or something else? - Joe became angry with the army commanders and said, “I can't believe you let the women live! They are the ones who followed Bob's advice and invited our people to worship the god Frank. That's why the our god punished us by killing so many of our people. You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex. But do not kill the young women who have never had sex. You may keep them for yourselves.”
Look familiar?
Hehe, no one bit. From the CEV version of the bible- Num 31:14 Moses became angry with the army commanders
Num 31:15 and said, “I can't believe you let the women live!
Num 31:16 They are the ones who followed Balaam's advice and invited our people to worship the god Baal Peor. That's why the LORD punished us by killing so many of our people.
Num 31:17 You must put to death every boy and all the women who have ever had sex.
Num 31:18 But do not kill the young women who have never had sex. You may keep them for yourselves.”Or the NASB
- Num 31:14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army, the captains of thousands and the captains of hundreds, who had come from service in the war.
Num 31:15 And Moses said to them, “Have you spared all the women?
Num 31:16 “Behold, these caused the sons of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, so the plague was among the congregation of the LORD.
Num 31:17 “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
Num 31:18 “But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.
I caught it, Kevin, but just didn't know how to respond. I am feeling a bit defeated by this overwhelming evidence that the OT seems (for lack of a better way of putting it), wacked.Moses certainly doesn't seem to be acting like a lover of God and definitely not like a Christian! We are led to believe that “righteous anger” is OK. Maybe Islam has it right?
“Defeated” may be not the correct word to describe how I'm feeling? But I'm tired and can't think of an appropriate word. Sad? Confused? Hard to believe? Dumb-founded? I just want to abandoned it altogether. Not God, but the religion of God.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2008,16:40) “Defeated” may be not the correct word to describe how I'm feeling? But I'm tired and can't think of an appropriate word. Sad? Confused? Hard to believe? Dumb-founded? I just want to abandoned it altogether. Not God, but the religion of God.
big hug MandyIts all going to be fine, hang in, you can do it
Thanks, sis.
I really do love God and have had too many glorious experiences with him to ever leave…… It's all the other stuff that has me wondering. There are cases made against the OT, and Jesus for that matter. Those of faith seem blind to them? Or willing to completely overlook the facts. I can't do that.
My mom used to say, “Mandy you have to learn to spit out the seeds to enjoy the fruit.” But I'm finding a mouth full of seeds makes you lose interest in the fruit. I only buy seedless grapes now.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2008,16:56) Thanks, sis. I really do love God and have had too many glorious experiences with him to ever leave…… It's all the other stuff that has me wondering. There are cases made against the OT, and Jesus for that matter. Those of faith seem blind to them? Or willing to completely overlook the facts. I can't do that.
My mom used to say, “Mandy you have to learn to spit out the seeds to enjoy the fruit.” But I'm finding a mouth full of seeds makes you lose interest in the fruit. I only buy seedless grapes now.
True, I do believe this whole mess will end well, and each nation will learn and seek there own fault,
once shown how, it becomes addictive to feel the freedomQuote I caught it, Kevin, but just didn't know how to respond. I am feeling a bit defeated by this overwhelming evidence that the OT seems (for lack of a better way of putting it), wacked. Moses certainly doesn't seem to be acting like a lover of God and definitely not like a Christian! We are led to believe that “righteous anger” is OK. Maybe Islam has it right?
Quote Moses certainly doesn't seem to be acting like a lover of God and definitely not like a Christian! Keeping in mind Moses was in a special position and we as Christians aren't the leader of a people, if you define “lover of God” as someone who obeys God, then Moses does seem like a lover of God.
When the Israelites moved in to possess the Promised Land, certain cities, including their populations, were entirely devoted to destruction, as, for example, Jericho, the firstfruits of the conquest. (Jos 6:17, 21) When capturing other cities not devoted to destruction, the Israelites, unlike the pagan nations, were not allowed to rape the women. If they desired a captive woman for a wife, certain requirements had to be met first.—La 5:11; Nu 31:9-19, 26, 27; De 21:10-14.
DEUTERONOMY 21:10-14
““In case you go out to the battle against your enemies and Jehovah your God has given them into your hand and you have carried them away captive; and you have seen among the captives a woman beautiful in form, and you have got attached to her and taken her for your wife, you must then bring her into the midst of your house. She must now shave her head and attend to her nails, and remove the mantle of her captivity from off her and dwell in your house and weep for her father and her mother a whole lunar month; and after that you should have relations with her, and you must take possession of her as your bride, and she must become your wife. And it must occur that if you have found no delight in her, you must then send her away, agreeably to her own soul; but you must by no means sell her for money. You must not deal tyrannically with her after you have humiliated her.”We remember that Revelation 2:14 says that Balaam “went teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit fornication.”
Balaam suggested that they entice the Israelites into engaging in sex worship of Baal of Peor. (Num. 31:16)
Question: If the judge of all the earth told an angel to destroy certain ones who were not deamed worthy of life by this judge, what position would we be in to judge him?
How much do we know about this situation?
David,
What if a well respected and reknowned Christian leader said that God told him that we must kill all Arabs except the virgin women, and that those virgins could be kept for Christians? What would be your response to that leader?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2008,16:56) Thanks, sis. I really do love God and have had too many glorious experiences with him to ever leave…… It's all the other stuff that has me wondering.
Then start examining all that other stuff, throw out the wrong, the nonsensical, keep what you feel fits and then look outside for new knowledge and ideas to fill in the gaps. Be aware that this is a process and your beliefs may and probably will modify as you gain in knowledge. In the end you will hopefully have something that you can both believe and support with intellect and feeling. You can continue to have glorious experiences in your search and come to know more about yourself in the process.I agree with Cato Mandy. If we are left with only the bible to know God, then I'm afraid God is not a likable character. Fortunately, all you need to realize is that the bible is an ancient book written by men with biases. There is some good to be found therein, but also much that is bad. The same can be said of any religious text — they are all attempts to portray God in a way that matches the prevalent beliefs at a time and place in history.
Quote (Cato @ April 15 2008,23:49) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 15 2008,16:56) Thanks, sis. I really do love God and have had too many glorious experiences with him to ever leave…… It's all the other stuff that has me wondering.
Then start examining all that other stuff, throw out the wrong, the nonsensical, keep what you feel fits and then look outside for new knowledge and ideas to fill in the gaps. Be aware that this is a process and your beliefs may and probably will modify as you gain in knowledge. In the end you will hopefully have something that you can both believe and support with intellect and feeling. You can continue to have glorious experiences in your search and come to know more about yourself in the process.
Hi cato,
Thank you for so clearly showing the path of self deception.Quote (942767 @ April 15 2008,14:01) What if a society be if they would only obeyed God's Laws?
It would be one man standing after very long series of brutal stonings.Stuart
From Wikipedia
- Self-deception is a process of denying or rationalizing away the relevance, significance, or importance of opposing evidence and logical argument.
It has been argued that humans are, without exception, highly susceptible to self-deception, as everyone has emotional attachments to beliefs, which in some cases may be irrational. Some evolutionary biologists, such as Robert Trivers, have even suggested that, because deception is such an important part of human behaviour (and animal behaviour generally), an instinct for self-deception can give a person a selective advantage: if someone can believe their own “lie” (i.e., their presentation that is biased toward their own self-interest), the theory goes, they will consequently be better able to persuade others of its “truth.”
This notion is based on the following logic. In humans, awareness of the fact that one is acting deceptively often leads to tell-tale signs of deception. Therefore, if self-deception enables someone to believe their distortions, they will not present such signs of deception and will therefore appear to be telling the truth.
It may also be argued that the ability to deceive, or self-deceive, is not the selected trait but a by-product of a more primary trait that is selected. Abstract thinking allows many evolutionary advantages such as more flexible, adaptive behaviors and innovation. Since a lie is an abstraction, the mental process of creating a lie can only occur in animals with enough brain complexity to permit abstract thinking.
Yep, sounds like fundamentalism to me
.Ooh, here's another good one from Wikipedia:
- Cognitive dissonance is a psychological state that describes the uncomfortable feeling between what one holds to be true and what one knows to be true. Similar to ambivalence, the term cognitive dissonance describes conflicting thoughts or beliefs (cognitions) that occur at the same time, or when engaged in behaviors that conflict with one's beliefs. In academic literature, the term refers to attempts to reduce the discomfort of conflicting thoughts, by performing actions that are opposite to one's beliefs.
In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs. In detailed terms, it is the perception of incompatibility between two cognitions, where “cognition” is defined as any element of knowledge, including attitude, emotion, belief, or behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance states that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions. Experiments have attempted to quantify this hypothetical drive. Some of these have examined how beliefs often change to match behavior when beliefs and behavior are in conflict.
Social psychologist Leon Festinger first proposed the theory in 1957 after the publication of his book When Prophecy Fails, observing the counterintuitive belief persistence of members of a UFO doomsday cult and their increased proselytization after the leader's prophecy failed. The failed message of earth's destruction, purportedly sent by aliens to a woman in 1956, became a disconfirmed expectancy that increased dissonance between cognitions, thereby causing most members of the impromptu cult to lessen the dissonance by accepting a new prophecy: that the aliens had instead spared the planet for their sake.[1]
Maintaining conflicting principles (e.g. logically incompatible beliefs) or rejecting reasonable behavior to avoid conflict can be increasingly maladaptive (non-beneficial) as the gap being bridged widens, and popular usage tends to stress the maladaptive aspect. Cognitive dissonance is often associated with the tendency for people to resist information that they don't want to think about, because if they did it would create cognitive dissonance, and perhaps require them to act in ways that depart from their comfortable habits. They usually have at least partial awareness of the information, without having moved to full acceptance of it, and are thus in a state of denial about it. This “irrational inability to incorporate rational information” is perhaps the most common perception of cognitive dissonance, and this or another example of extreme maladaption would appear to be underlying many conceptions of the term in popular usage.
Quote (kejonn @ April 16 2008,08:05) In simple terms, it can be the filtering of information that conflicts with what one already believes, in an effort to ignore that information and reinforce one's beliefs.
This is exactly what I don't want to do anymore.I believe this is exactly what Nick is doing when he reads our posts about all the killing at the command of God.
This is utterly appalling.
- Deu 28:45 “If you refuse to listen to the LORD your God and to obey the commands and laws he has given you, all these curses will pursue and overtake you until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:46 These horrors will serve as a sign and warning among you and your descendants forever.
Deu 28:47 Because you have not served the LORD your God with joy and enthusiasm for the abundant benefits you have received,
Deu 28:48 you will serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you. You will be left hungry, thirsty, naked, and lacking in everything. They will oppress you harshly until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:49 “The LORD will bring a distant nation against you from the end of the earth, and it will swoop down on you like an eagle. It is a nation whose language you do not understand,
Deu 28:50 a fierce and heartless nation that shows no respect for the old and no pity for the young.
Deu 28:51 Its armies will devour your livestock and crops, and you will starve to death. They will leave you no grain, new wine, olive oil, calves, or lambs, bringing about your destruction.
Deu 28:52 They will lay siege to your cities until all the fortified walls in your land–the walls you trusted to protect you–are knocked down. They will attack all the towns in the land the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 28:53 The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 28:54 The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children.
Deu 28:55 He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring–the flesh of one of his own children–because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.
Deu 28:56 The most tender and delicate woman among you–so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground–will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter.
Deu 28:57 She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.
Deu 28:58 “If you refuse to obey all the terms of this law that are written in this book, and if you do not fear the glorious and awesome name of the LORD your God,
Deu 28:59 then the LORD will overwhelm both you and your children with indescribable plagues. These plagues will be intense and without relief, making you miserable and unbearably sick.
Deu 28:60 He will bring against you all the diseases of Egypt that you feared so much, and they will claim you.
Deu 28:61 The LORD will bring against you every sickness and plague there is, even those not mentioned in this Book of the Law, until you are destroyed.
Deu 28:62 Though you are as numerous as the stars in the sky, few of you will be left because you would not listen to the LORD your God.
Deu 28:63 “Just as the LORD has found great pleasure in helping you to prosper and multiply, the LORD will find pleasure in destroying you, until you disappear from the land you are about to enter and occupy.I've been reading on in Deut. and the punishments do not seem to fit the crimes. I mean, as a parent I love my child even though he disobeys me or doesn't respect me. I'm certainly not going to take pleasure in tourmenting him.
Quote This is utterly appalling. Quote Deu 28:53 The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 28:54 The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children.
Deu 28:55 He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring–the flesh of one of his own children–because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.
Deu 28:56 The most tender and delicate woman among you–so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground–will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter.
Deu 28:57 She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.Yes, it is utterly appalling, what they did, and the sad situation they brought themselves into.
Describing the desperate situation of the Jews during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., Jeremiah wrote:
“The very hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children. They have become as bread of consolation to one during the breakdown of the daughter of my people.”—Lamentations 4:10.Centuries before, Moses had alerted the Israelites that their future would be marked by either “blessing” or “malediction.”
They would enjoy blessings if they kept God’s commandments, but they would bring suffering upon themselves if they rejected his righteous ways. One of the terrible consequences was that the Israelites would be reduced to eating their own children. (Deuteronomy 28:1, 11-15, 54, 55; 30:1; Leviticus 26:3-5, 29) This actually occurred after Jehovah abandoned the faithless, disobedient nation into the hand of the Babylonians.
At Lamentations 4:10 the prophet Jeremiah drew upon the well-known fact that a mother is naturally tenderhearted, compassionate, and protective toward her children. (1 Kings 3:26, 27; 1 Thessalonians 2:7) Yet, the famine in besieged Jerusalem was so extreme and the resulting starvation so compelling that mothers who would normally be compassionate boiled and cannibalistically ate their offspring.—Compare Lamentations 2:20.A similar situation occurred after the Jews rejected the Messiah, who had warned about a coming siege of Jerusalem. (Matthew 23:37, 38; 24:15-19; Luke 21:20-24) Historian Josephus described one of the horrors of the siege in 70 C.E.:
“Mary the daughter of Eleazar . . . killed her son, then roasted him and ate one half, concealing and saving up the rest.”—The Jewish War, translated by G. A. Williamson, chapter 20, page 319.Truly, abandoning God’s laws and ways is not the course of wisdom.
It was completely their choice. The choice was presented to them. They made an agreement with him, a covenant. And had they listened to his voice, great blessings would have resulted.
It's much the same lesson as with adam and eve. They could have had paradise, endlessly, being the parents of all. The choice was presented, and God told them what the results would be if they didn't listen.I, personally, don't feel very sorry for people who choose die in a car crash if they decided to ignore the law and were driving 200 miles per hour.
If someone gave me a very nice car and said: “Here, it is yours, only, drive reasonably and you will enjoy the car, but if you drive insanely, then you're going to be horribly injured, bones broken, blood, etc.”
I wouldn't blame the person who told me who could see what the result would be. It would be my own fault if I chose incredibly stupidly.
David
In the face of any brutal dictator, take any of the famous 20th Century ones as an example, you would be useless. If the consequence of standing up to such a bully was the possibly of death, you would cower. If the people were being murdered in the streets you would tell them they should have listened to the warnings.
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 16 2008,01:50) Quote This is utterly appalling. Quote Deu 28:53 The siege will be so severe that you will eat the flesh of your own sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you.
Deu 28:54 The most tenderhearted man among you will have no compassion for his own brother, his beloved wife, and his surviving children.
Deu 28:55 He will refuse to give them a share of the flesh he is devouring–the flesh of one of his own children–because he has nothing else to eat during the siege that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.
Deu 28:56 The most tender and delicate woman among you–so delicate she would not so much as touch her feet to the ground–will be cruel to the husband she loves and to her own son or daughter.
Deu 28:57 She will hide from them the afterbirth and the new baby she has borne, so that she herself can secretly eat them. She will have nothing else to eat during the siege and terrible distress that your enemy will inflict on all your towns.Yes, it is utterly appalling, what they did, and the sad situation they brought themselves into.
Describing the desperate situation of the Jews during the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., Jeremiah wrote:
“The very hands of compassionate women have boiled their own children. They have become as bread of consolation to one during the breakdown of the daughter of my people.”—Lamentations 4:10.Centuries before, Moses had alerted the Israelites that their future would be marked by either “blessing” or “malediction.”
They would enjoy blessings if they kept God’s commandments, but they would bring suffering upon themselves if they rejected his righteous ways. One of the terrible consequences was that the Israelites would be reduced to eating their own children. (Deuteronomy 28:1, 11-15, 54, 55; 30:1; Leviticus 26:3-5, 29) This actually occurred after Jehovah abandoned the faithless, disobedient nation into the hand of the Babylonians.
At Lamentations 4:10 the prophet Jeremiah drew upon the well-known fact that a mother is naturally tenderhearted, compassionate, and protective toward her children. (1 Kings 3:26, 27; 1 Thessalonians 2:7) Yet, the famine in besieged Jerusalem was so extreme and the resulting starvation so compelling that mothers who would normally be compassionate boiled and cannibalistically ate their offspring.—Compare Lamentations 2:20.
I note you conveniently left off some verses. Wonder why that is? Here, let me help you by listing the one great verse again:Deu 28:63 “It shall come about that as the LORD delighted over you to prosper you, and multiply you, so the LORD will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you will be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it.
You willingly worship Jehovah, who, according to this, takes great pleasure in destroying people. Sure they were disobedient, but even parents don't take joy in punishing their children. If they do, they get locked up.
Do you get off on tormenting your children David? After all, you'd just be mimicing Jehovah if he do. Go ahead, enjoy it!
Quote A similar situation occurred after the Jews rejected the Messiah, who had warned about a coming siege of Jerusalem. (Matthew 23:37, 38; 24:15-19; Luke 21:20-24) Historian Josephus described one of the horrors of the siege in 70 C.E.:
“Mary the daughter of Eleazar . . . killed her son, then roasted him and ate one half, concealing and saving up the rest.”—The Jewish War, translated by G. A. Williamson, chapter 20, page 319.
Paul knew nothing of the sieges and never spoke of them. He wrote nothing of the upcoming destruction. He was the only one who definitively wrote before 70 CE. So it is not likely that Jesus ever predicted such, but that the prediction was inserted into his life story to try to lend credibility to his claims.Quote Truly, abandoning God’s laws and ways is not the course of wisdom.
Then why don't you follow Torah?Quote It was completely their choice. The choice was presented to them. They made an agreement with him, a covenant. And had they listened to his voice, great blessings would have resulted.
Actually, no. Deuteronomy was not written by Moses. You will not find the list of curses in the first four books (not written by Moses either). Deuteronomy was written by either one priest or a sect of priests during the reign of King Josiah. From http://earlyjewishwritings.com/deuteronomy.html- Samuel Sandmel writes: “The signs of the postexilic period are unmistakable. Israel is spoken of not as usual as an 'am, a nation, a people, but rather as a qahal, a congregation. The entity is a reduced community, no longer extending from Dan in the north to Beer Sheba in the south. Ammonite and Moabite may not join it, but Edomites and Egyptians may; we are past the time of the first missionary movement. The religious purity of the congregation is to be maintained; over and over again there occurs the formula, 'You shall cleanse the evil from the midst of your people.' Evil things, 'abominations,' are not to be tolerated; indeed, to abominate (Hebrew ta'ab) takes on the meaning, 'to exclude from the congregation.' The attitude towards heathens is most severe, and the worst of all transgressions is apostasy from Yahve. Yet on the other hand, an extensive humanitarianism is to be found in many of the laws and much of the exhortation.” (The Hebrew Scriptures, pp. 414-415)
Jay G. Williams writes: “It is this emphasis [on one central shrine], in particular, which has led scholars to identify Deuteronomy as the scroll of the law found in the Temple during the reign of King Josiah in the seventh century. According to II Kings 22-23 this scroll led Josiah to initiate a reform of the religion of Judah which, in particular, involved the destruction of all places of sacrifice except the Temple in Jerusalem. Since only Deuteronomy, of all the books of the Torah, calls for such a reform and since it is inconceivable that such an important book of the law would have been lost after Josiah's time, it is likely that the identification of Deuteronomy as the discovered scroll is correct. The fact that Deuteronomy often reflects both the language and the thought of the eighth century prophets helps to confirm this identification.” (Understanding the Old Testament, p. 137)
Quote
It's much the same lesson as with adam and eve. They could have had paradise, endlessly, being the parents of all. The choice was presented, and God told them what the results would be if they didn't listen.I, personally, don't feel very sorry for people who choose die in a car crash if they decided to ignore the law and were driving 200 miles per hour.
Those are obvious. Do you take pleasure in hearing how they died? Go ahead, Jehovah says he takes pleasure in destroying the disobedient, so its OK for you to find joy in the death of people who make poor decisions.Quote If someone gave me a very nice car and said: “Here, it is yours, only, drive reasonably and you will enjoy the car, but if you drive insanely, then you're going to be horribly injured, bones broken, blood, etc.” I wouldn't blame the person who told me who could see what the result would be. It would be my own fault if I chose incredibly stupidly.
So again, I must ask, why don't you follow Torah?
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