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UMR online survey of 1000 NZ adults, reported on the front page of the Dominion Post today:
78% believe Jesus was a real person who lived 2000 years ago.
61% nationally believed in “a god or universal spirit” -72% of women and 52% of men – only 54% of Wellingtonians believe.
57% believe in life after death.
55% think people have psychic powers such as ESP.
33% believe that Earth has been visited by UFOs.
24% think astrology can predict people's futures.
Good to see the DomPost list god believe alongside UFOs, astrology and psychic powers. It's all woo.
But some questions remain: does 54% believe imply 46% non-belief? That is significantly higher than in the past.
The believers might just still have the majority for a short time longer, but it ain't Godzone anymore!
Stuart
Stuart,
Some believe that we do not use our senses as we did at one time due to convenience. Testing of new aircraft at one time was a UFO. Astrology was used by the ancients, as does science today.
I know you want your 'a' team to top the chart on stats however, religions are not going to disappear any time soon.
Many of the stats should be 100% or higher. People need to think more deeply about things.
- 33% believe in UFOs.
Any aircraft that is not identified is unidentified. So 100% of people should believe that not all flying objects are identified.
Also, are people not aware that the moon is a type of Death Star and when it came into orbit, it tilted the Earth causing mass extinctions and a flood and the aliens terra-formed Earth from there in their own planets image, infused their DNA into the apes, and have been watching our progress to this day.- 55% think people have psychic powers.
Physic ability is 100% true. If there was no Physic ability there would be no able minds.- 57% believe in life after death.
Life force is energy. Energy cannot be destroyed. This figure should be higher.- 24% think astrology can predict people's futures.
Of course it can. If a broken clock is right twice every day, then astrology should have its share of correct predictions too. E.g., you will meet an old friend today. Oh yeah, I met whats his name on Facebook.- 61% nationally believed in “a god or universal spirit” -72% of women and 52% of men – only 54% of Wellingtonians believe.
God obviously exists. The absence of God leaves 2 impossible and foolish beliefs. Stu subscribes to one of those 2 beliefs. Perhaps the less foolish of the two. Of course it is no secret that the something option can still include God as he still qualifies as something, so there is hope. But don't hold your breath.The question about UFOs apparently asked about them visiting us, not about whether they exist. I think visiting probably implies the idea of beings from elsewhere visiting this planet.
When you type “physic” ability, did you mean psychic ability? Once again, that has a particular definition that does not imply psychological ability.
Life force is a concept that disappeared in the Nineteenth Century. Good to see it getting resurrected, whatever it means.
I don't think astrologers would think of astrology as being something as haphazard as you suggest. Of course it is, but that is not what people are responding to, I think.
God doesn't obviously exist for 46% of Wellingtonians.
I think the figures in every category should be closer to zero. Of course this all goes to show that gullibility and snake oil are alive and well.
Stuart
Quote (princess @ Dec. 08 2011,10:47) Stuart, Some believe that we do not use our senses as we did at one time due to convenience. Testing of new aircraft at one time was a UFO. Astrology was used by the ancients, as does science today.
I know you want your 'a' team to top the chart on stats however, religions are not going to disappear any time soon.
Astrology has nothing to to with science. As t8 suggests, it is like a stopped watch being right twice a day. To take a crude example, if you were to cut out the previous day's newspaper horoscope, remove the signs of the zodiac from each paragraph, and get people to choose which one most closely described the previous day for them, there would be a 1 in 12 chance of them choosing the paragraph for their own star sign. Astrologers would probably claim that their “work” is more sophisticated than that, but actually it all amounts to that same kind of random chance in the end.Astrology and tarot card reading is thought to have a benefit, though. Sometimes a session one-on-one can be like having a counseling session, where the reader's role is a defacto listening ear. Probably a lot cheaper than a professional counselor, too.
As for the a that tops the charts, the one that does is agnostic. We all are agnostic about all gods. Anyone who claims he absolutely knows there is (or is not) a god is not to be trusted. I would have thought most christians should agree with that. Otherwise what is the point of faith?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,19:55) Life force is a concept that disappeared in the Nineteenth Century. Good to see it getting resurrected, whatever it means.
You can animate a frog with electricity. The energy can make the legs kick. When the spirit leaves a body, the body is lifeless.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,19:55) The question about UFOs apparently asked about them visiting us, not about whether they exist. I think visiting probably implies the idea of beings from elsewhere visiting this planet. When you type “physic” ability, did you mean psychic ability? Once again, that has a particular definition that does not imply psychological ability.
Life force is a concept that disappeared in the Nineteenth Century. Good to see it getting resurrected, whatever it means.
I don't think astrologers would think of astrology as being something as haphazard as you suggest. Of course it is, but that is not what people are responding to, I think.
God doesn't obviously exist for 46% of Wellingtonians.
I think the figures in every category should be closer to zero. Of course this all goes to show that gullibility and snake oil are alive and well.
Stuart
Oh yeah, UFO's from one country often visit other countries on reconnaissance missions.
Ok Stu, I should probably point out that you are being too serious.
While other times you are too silly, like when you try to convince people that the universe is not a product of intelligence.
Why not try being in the middle of silly and too serious?
That way you will make serious comments to something serious, and stop making silly comments that are tantamount to white rabbits always existing or coming from nothing, when they are pulled out a magicians hat.
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,20:08) God doesn't obviously exist for 46% of Wellingtonians.
Maybe that is why we had 2 earthquakes today?………………
If Wellington didn't exist for 46% of Americans, then I guess that Wellington wouldn't exist. Oh hang on, maybe the 54% would make it exist?
Confused.
I know, maybe something can exist whether you believe it or not?
Now that this is sorted, let's sing the National Anthem of New Zealand together.
I will hum the tune and you can sing.
Here are the lyrics for you.God Defend New Zealand
God of nations at thy feet
in the bonds of love we meet.
Hear our voices, we entreat,
God defend our free land.
Guard Pacific's triple star
From the shafts of strife and war,
Make her praises heard afar,
God defend New Zealand.Men of every creed and race
Gather here before thy face,
Asking thee to bless this place,
God defend our free land.
From dissension, envy, hate,
And corruption guard our state,
Make our country good and great,
God defend New Zealand.Peace, not war, shall be our boast,
But, should foes assail our coast,
Make us then a mighty host,
God defend our free land.
Lord of battles in thy might,
Put our enemies to flight,Let our cause be just and right,
God defend New Zealand.
Let our love for Thee increase,
May thy blessings never cease,
Give us plenty, give us peace,
God defend our free land.
From dishonour and from shame
Guard our country's spotless name,
Crown her with immortal fame,
God defend New Zealand.May our mountains ever be
Freedom's ramparts on the sea,
Make us faithful unto thee,
God defend our free land.
Guide her in the nation's van,
Preaching love and truth to man,
Working out thy glorious plan.
God defend New Zealand.Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,20:08) Anyone who claims he absolutely knows there is (or is not) a god is not to be trusted.
Upon observing a murder scene, can we trust anyone who believes that there was a murderer?Upon observing the universe, can we trust a person who says there is a god. Well the only thing I can advise is that we can trust that comment, because to believe otherwise is truly fooooooolish.
Stu, you once said that God had a 0.00001% chance of existing, (some figure like that). So I can assume that I can trust you 0.00001% of the time because that is how far off absolutely knowing that there is NOT a god you are.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2011,20:26) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,20:08) God doesn't obviously exist for 46% of Wellingtonians.
Maybe that is why we had 2 earthquakes today?………………
If Wellington didn't exist for 46% of Americans, then I guess that Wellington wouldn't exist. Oh hang on, maybe the 54% would make it exist?
Confused.
I know, maybe something can exist whether you believe it or not?
Now that this is sorted, let's sing the National Anthem of New Zealand together.
I will hum the tune and you can sing.
Here are the lyrics for you.God Defend New Zealand
God of nations at thy feet
in the bonds of love we meet.
Hear our voices, we entreat,
God defend our free land.
Guard Pacific's triple star
From the shafts of strife and war,
Make her praises heard afar,
God defend New Zealand.Men of every creed and race
Gather here before thy face,
Asking thee to bless this place,
God defend our free land.
From dissension, envy, hate,
And corruption guard our state,
Make our country good and great,
God defend New Zealand.Peace, not war, shall be our boast,
But, should foes assail our coast,
Make us then a mighty host,
God defend our free land.
Lord of battles in thy might,
Put our enemies to flight,Let our cause be just and right,
God defend New Zealand.
Let our love for Thee increase,
May thy blessings never cease,
Give us plenty, give us peace,
God defend our free land.
From dishonour and from shame
Guard our country's spotless name,
Crown her with immortal fame,
God defend New Zealand.May our mountains ever be
Freedom's ramparts on the sea,
Make us faithful unto thee,
God defend our free land.
Guide her in the nation's van,
Preaching love and truth to man,
Working out thy glorious plan.
God defend New Zealand.
HI T8, is this it?God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2011,20:32) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,20:08) Anyone who claims he absolutely knows there is (or is not) a god is not to be trusted.
Upon observing a murder scene, can we trust anyone who believes that there was a murderer?Upon observing the universe, can we trust a person who says there is a god. Well the only thing I can advise is that we can trust that comment, because to believe otherwise is truly fooooooolish.
Stu, you once said that God had a 0.00001% chance of existing, (some figure like that). So I can assume that I can trust you 0.00001% of the time because that is how far off absolutely knowing that there is NOT a god you are.
On observing a bus that has arrived at its destination safely, should we conclude that there was a driver? Of course we should.Would it be absurd to think houses just built themselves? Yes!
Computers! Did a wafer of silicon just spontaneously layer and etch itself into billions of tiny connected transistors? No!
…
Therefore when we see a perfectly ordered salt crystal, we should think anyone foolish who does not believe that there is an invisible, intelligent crystal-maker who added the ions in PRECISELY the right order to make that obviously designed crystal.
…
See how false analogy leads to wrong conclusions?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 08 2011,20:26) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,20:08) God doesn't obviously exist for 46% of Wellingtonians.
Maybe that is why we had 2 earthquakes today?………………
If Wellington didn't exist for 46% of Americans, then I guess that Wellington wouldn't exist. Oh hang on, maybe the 54% would make it exist?
Confused.
I know, maybe something can exist whether you believe it or not?
Now that this is sorted, let's sing the National Anthem of New Zealand together.
I will hum the tune and you can sing.
Here are the lyrics for you.God Defend New Zealand
God of nations at thy feet
God defend our free land.
God defend New Zealand.
God defend our free land.
God defend New Zealand.
God defend our free land.
Lord of battles in thy might,
God defend New Zealand.
God defend our free land.
God defend New Zealand.
God defend our free land.
God defend New Zealand.
But since there are no gods, we had to sign a defense pact with Australia, and to some extent the US.Just like churches that have lightening rods on top, we don't really believe Imaginary Friends are the basis for civil or military defense. Probably better that way, on the off-chance that the god is real, and is actually on the side of the enemy.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,22:49) Therefore when we see a perfectly ordered salt crystal, we should think anyone foolish who does not believe that there is an invisible, intelligent crystal-maker who added the ions in PRECISELY the right order to make that obviously designed crystal. …
See how false analogy leads to wrong conclusions?
Oh ye of 0.000006% faith.God is the law giver and hence he doesn't have a hammer and chisel or servants with these tools making every single cell and process.
He is so smart that most things happen because of his laws.
Honestly Stu. No wonder you go around saying that there is no creator.
This is a perfect example of dull mindedness.Quote (t8 @ Dec. 14 2011,09:57) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 08 2011,22:49) Therefore when we see a perfectly ordered salt crystal, we should think anyone foolish who does not believe that there is an invisible, intelligent crystal-maker who added the ions in PRECISELY the right order to make that obviously designed crystal. …
See how false analogy leads to wrong conclusions?
Oh ye of 0.000006% faith.God is the law giver and hence he doesn't have a hammer and chisel or servants with these tools making every single cell and process.
He is so smart that most things happen because of his laws.
Honestly Stu. No wonder you go around saying that there is no creator.
This is a perfect example of dull mindedness.
But you do see how false analogy leads to the wrong conclusions, don't you.Stuart
False analogy does lead to false conclusions, but when we say that God created everything and you imagine that he wasn't smart enough to create processes in order to create everything, then that lack of understanding comes from you not us. Is not God the lawgiver. And is not the physical universe subject to laws.
When man ignites an atomic bomb is that the explosion some how all mans doing. Do I need to spell out that he actually just making it possible to let the laws of physics do it for him.
I just kind of assumed that I wouldn't need to spell everything out, not to mention that I would never have enough time either.
I even remember mentioning to you that the laws are similar to a computer program with cyberspace where you can write or speak laws into the logic of the program. Game designers do it when they want to mimic gravity for example. That way a player can do something random, and the law of gravity still works. Otherwise the programmer has to apply gravity manually to every movement within the game which is near impossible.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 14 2011,19:33) False analogy does lead to false conclusions, but when we say that God created everything and you imagine that he wasn't smart enough to create processes in order to create everything, then that lack of understanding comes from you not us. Is not God the lawgiver. And is not the physical universe subject to laws.
Who is “we”?Quote When man ignites an atomic bomb is that the explosion some how all mans doing. Do I need to spell out that he actually just making it possible to let the laws of physics do it for him.
The laws of physics won't set off an atomic bomb because matter tends to spread out, not accumulate. So we have to specifically harness the energy to pay the entropy to separate the fissile isotopes from a mixture in order to have enriched uranium / plutonium / thorium to “ignite” as you incorrectly put it. So, I would say unequivocally yes, this is the doing of humans. There are some issues with your use of “laws of physics” in this case, of course.But this does raise an interesting theological question for you, I imagine. Humans can use the law of gravity to make lead shot; the molten lead drops down through a long tower and solidifies roughly into spheres during the fall. On a grander scale, hydrogen and helium and small amounts of other materials are attracted together by the law of gravity to such an extent that eventually the pressure and temperature will be enough to ignite (a correct useage this time) fusion and begin the lifecycle of a star. So, in your view of things, even though we melt the lead and carry it up the tower against the force of gravity, we are actually just “letting a law of physics” do the job of making lead shot. If so, then is your god just “letting a law of physics” make the stars, as described in Genesis? Or is it that it is a divine act to use the laws of physics to make things, and we are also divine when we make lead shot?
Quote I even remember mentioning to you that the laws are similar to a computer program with cyberspace where you can write or speak laws into the logic of the program. Game designers do it when they want to mimic gravity for example. That way a player can do something random, and the law of gravity still works. Otherwise the programmer has to apply gravity manually to every movement within the game which is near impossible.
All of which tells us what?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Dec. 16 2011,18:59) Who is “we”?
Um what?Most people on Earth believe that there was a creator. But whatever, let's say it is all people of the Earth who wore a polo shirt on the 14 of December.
Also, you need to read my post again Stu.
I said, “When man ignites an atomic bomb is that the explosion some how all mans doing.”
The answer obviously is no because even man uses the laws of physics in his own inventions. The point of course goes back to God creating everything, and you thinking that he sort of built everything on the spot with his celestial hammer, whereas I just assumed that you would know that the creator who is the law giver would use his own laws to do much of the work.
Have another go Stu.
Actually don't bother. Come back when you have something either intelligent or wise to share. Not really interested in this level of debate Stu. I can't see the use of it. A waste of time. Better of to watch a DVD on the planets that I got given as a present once. TV going on now.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 16 2011,19:46) Quote (Stu @ Dec. 16 2011,18:59) Who is “we”?
Um what?Most people on Earth believe that there was a creator. But whatever, let's say it is all people of the Earth who wore a polo shirt on the 14 of December.
Also, you need to read my post again Stu.
I said, “When man ignites an atomic bomb is that the explosion some how all mans doing.”
The answer obviously is no because even man uses the laws of physics in his own inventions. The point of course goes back to God creating everything, and you thinking that he sort of built everything on the spot with his celestial hammer, whereas I just assumed that you would know that the creator who is the law giver would use his own laws to do much of the work.
Have another go Stu.
Actually don't bother. Come back when you have something either intelligent or wise to share. Not really interested in this level of debate Stu. I can't see the use of it. A waste of time. Better of to watch a DVD on the planets that I got given as a present once. TV going on now.
So when you say “we” in the context of your statement:Quote but when we say that God created everything and you imagine that he wasn't smart enough to create processes in order to create everything, then that lack of understanding comes from you not us. a) please quote me saying that I don't think your god is “smart enough to create processes”, or retract and apologise for misrepresenting me
and
b) say what a god is and demonstrate that the god you assert exists does actually exist in order to be “understood”
and
c) explain how you could possibly know how divine creation would work by “creating processes” in order to “create everything”: that's not the impression I get from reading your book of mythology, it's all done by platitude, not apparently by process
Then, when you claim “Most people on Earth believe that there was a creator” you really need to show that yours is the kind of creation myth they believe in, then perhaps acknowledge that the point is meaningless in any case because if you are using it as an argument to support your claims then it is the logical fallacy of ad populam.
Maybe the TV will tell you the answers to these questions. Is Benny Hinn on yet?
Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ Dec. 08 2011,21:42) HI T8, is this it? God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Yeah that is it.Here is a better version sung before a rugby game.
Stu, you can sing along.
- 33% believe in UFOs.
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