God in the flesh

Participant

Response to quotes by Kenrch.

Quote

Heb 1:8 but of the Son he saith, *Thy throne, O GOD, is for ever and ever*; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; *Therefore GOD*, thy GOD, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

The phrase “O God” is a worshipful phrase indicating the reverence each Person of the Godhead have one for another. Each recognises the other as their God.

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Col 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

The key to understanding this verse is understanding the term first-born, what does it mean? The Greek word for “first created” is the word Protoktioti. If Paul wanted to say Christ was the first created being, he would have used this word but he does not. He uses another term, Prototokos. Paul is referring to the Jewish use of the word first-born which not only means first one born but also is used as a title of sovereignty and pre-eminence.

Here's an example of the meaning of the word. In Psalm 89:27 God says of David, “I also shall make him My first-born, the highest of the kings of the earth.”

Let's take a good look and see how first- born is used here. Is David the first-born son of Jesse? No, he is the eighth and youngest son of Jesse.

Then how is it that David is the first-born? In the Old Testament use of the word, he is first- born in that he is pre-eminent or sovereign of all the kings of the earth.

Now stick that usage of first-born into the context of Colossians 1:15, and it fits perfectly.

Verse 18 shows that Paul is clearly talking about the pre-eminence of Christ for he says,

“He is also the head of the body” and “the first-born” for the purpose, “that in everything he might be pre-eminent.”

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Col 1:19 For it was the good pleasure of the Father that in him should all the fulness dwell;

Let us look closely at this verse .

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

The words “the Father” are in italics which means that they were provided by the translators. There is no evidence that they belong there at all. There are no Strongs number because the words do not exist.

See the Literal Translation Bible

Col 1:19 because all the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him,

In the original Greek we see that this verse takes on a totally different meaning.

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1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

In 1 Cor 15:28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate, not the Son as Son in essence. While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,” Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”

Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.

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Joh 14:28 Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I.

There has on this forum been much confusion between Christ’s mission or “office” as Messiah and that of His substance which is The Eternal God.

When Christ was to leave heaven and was to take the form of a man He did not cease to be God. He simply put aside His own divine power and was dependent on God for power. This makes Him our example to follow because we too are to depend totally on God.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He had to overcome Satan while living as a man. Christ did not come to earth to show what a God can do, but what man can do when he depends on God for power. He succeeded where Adam failed.

Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

A human body was fashioned for Christ. A body which had sinful propensities just like ours. A body less than what Adam had, weakened by the curse of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Christ condemned sin in the flesh. He resisted sin. Don’t forget that He laid aside His divine power and did not use it for His own benefit, overcoming temptation relying on God for power. We too can resist temptation if we rely on God for power. Christ was our example.

Heb 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Luk 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.
Luk 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

There are many instances in the scripture where Jesus calls the Father..His God and says the Father is greater than I.

In many of these instances Jesus was encumbered with humanity or within the context of His mission as Messiah. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.

Within the Godhead a plan was made for the salvation of man. It is evident that each Divine Person within the Godhead takes on a different of
fice or role. It is a pity that we too cannot learn to work together and to serve each other.

Jesus Christ is the creator, not a creature and will always be equal to the Father in this sense. Jn 1:1 says, “and the word was God”.

However, before the incarnation, Jesus made a choice to submit to the Father as His head. He had to live in His humanity as a man depending on God for power. Jesus did not give up being God, He was subject to and obeying the Father while living as a man.

People often confuse the nature of the Godhead with Their work.
In nature each One is fully divine, fully God, self existent, and totally eternal-both past and future.

And Their work?

Each Divine Person maintains a position and does a work different to the other.

The Son took the form of a man. In doing so He would reveal the love of the Godhead to the universe. He would suffer pain, separation from God and the crucifixition.

The Father would maintain the head position and He would become the central One to pray to. He does not minister to us in the direct way of the Son and Holy Spirit. He would not have the central focus to save mankind and to eventually be as highly exalted as the Saviour. He is self effacing in this respect.

The invisible Holy Spirit, though His important work apparently unseen, would not receive the glory and homage paid to the Father and Son. He comes ministering to us personally while letting all the thankfulness be given to the Father and the Son. He does not testify of Himself. John 15:26

The Holy Spirit uniquely operates on an entirely different realm of existence because He is formless and invisible. (except when He choses to reveal Himself symbolically as a dove or tongues of fire)

2Co 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.

If we can now have communion or fellowship with the invisible Holy Spirit then we can also fellowship with Him in eternity even if He is still invisible.

Each member of the Godhead took on a position that was selfless to the extreme and thus revealing the character of God.

We can now understand better Christ’s statement

Mat 23:11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

We can stand in awe of the great love, humility and even servanthood of the Godhead.

David and Nick. I hope that you observed. When your doctrine is in harmony with the Bible then there is no need to be evasive and sidestep from the truth. All your dancing around truth and twisting and squirming this way and that way only shows that you have wrong theology. Let the Bible interpret itself. Don't follow the teachings of men. Don't try to add or take away.

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

March 18, 2007 at 2:17 pm#45351

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Mar. 18 2007,05:50)

Kenrch

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Jesus is so full of the Spirit of God he couldn't be more God UNLESS He were the Father. BUT HE is NOT Jehovah.

Kenrch. Kindly comment on the following.

Jesus (Jehovah) The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last).

“Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, and those who pierced Him will see Him, and all the kindreds of the earth will wail because of Him. Even so, Amen. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, says the Lord, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
(Rev 1:7-8)

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending,
the First and the Last.”

“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.”
(Rev 22:13 & 16)

The Book of Revelation, which is the Testimony of Jesus Christ, identifies Jesus as the The Alpha & The Omega (The First & The Last). It further identifies Him as The Almighty. Further testimony by Jesus, showing that the title, The First & The Last belongs to Him is found in:

” And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying to me, Do not fear, I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hell and of death.”
(Rev 1:17-18)

“And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The First and the Last, who became dead and lived, says these things:”
(Rev 2:8)

It is Jesus Christ, Himself, who became dead and lived, who reveals that He is the First & the Last of Holy Scripture.

Since the Bible is one continual work stretching from Genesis to Revelation, it is clear that this title belongs to Jesus, and no other. There can only be One who is the First and one who is the Last .

We also find the following statements concerning the First & the Last in the Holy Bible:

– – “Who has planned and done it, calling forth the generations from the beginning? I, Jehovah, am the first and the last; I am He.”
(Isa 41:4)

“So says Jehovah, the King of Israel, and His redeemer Jehovah of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and besides Me there is no God.”
(Isa 44:6)

“Listen to me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.”
(Isa 48:12-13)

Isaiah, inspired by God, calls the First & the Last, Jehovah, Jehovah of Hosts, the Redeemer, and God (meaning the God of Israel). This further biblical evidence provide overwhelming Testimony from Holy Scripture that Jesus (Jehovah) is indeed God Almighty & Eternal.

Here is overwhelming evidence from the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ The Almighty God is the eternal Jehovah, The Alpha & The Omega, The First & The Last, The Beginning and the Ending.

Gee CB you seem so humble in this post thank you for that.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending,
the First and the Last.”

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the *beginning of the creation of God*:

Jesus was the beginning of the creation of God. Because all thing were created through Jesus He is the Last creation of God. All things were created through Jesus.

Jesus is the first born of the dead. The first born of the “new” creation, the children of God. Before Jesus' birth God had no children “born” to Him. That's what this is all about “the God Family”.

1Co 15:20 But now hath Christ been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of them that are asleep.

Jesus IS the first of this “new” creation. God's first born.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when *he shall deliver up the kingdom to God*, even the Father*; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 *For he must reign, “till” he hath put all his enemies under his feet*.

1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, *then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all*.

The first born, the God of the now new kingdom. Will, after HE is finished give His gift to God the Father, the “New creation” the children of God. He being the Eldest, the first born of God the Father IS the head of all God's new creation His children.

Jesus before being born was the first creation of God. Now HE is the first BORN of GOD. We are in Jesus HIS status hasn't changed He is the beginning and the end even of the “new” creation of God.

The Father gave Jesus all authority:

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been GIVEN unto me in heaven and on earth.

Someone GAVE Jesus all authority. That someone is Jesus' God.

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus before HE became flesh had all authority being the beginning (FIRST) creation of God. NOW Jesus has full authority being the beginning, the FIRST BORN of God's children. All creation was through Jesus before HE became flesh and NOW all of the new creation comes through Jesus the First Born of GOD.

He is seated at the right hand of the FATHER. NO one comes to the Father except through Jesus. No one just marches into the thrown room before the Father. Everyone must go through Jesus to be worthy. AMEN!

IHL,
Ken

March 18, 2007 at 9:17 pm#45368

Participant

Response to Kenrch

Quote

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church of Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the *beginning of the creation of God*:

Christ was the one who initiated the work of Creation. In other words, Christ is the Beginner or Originator of Creation, and not Creation's first creature. He is the One who is creating, rather than being created.

Instead of being the One who was first created, He is the first One who created.

The word “arche” which is translated “beginning” when accepted in the active sense, indicates that Christ was the one who began the work of Creation.

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1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, *then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all*.

In 1 Cor 15:24-28, the subjection spoken of is that of the Son as incarnate humanity or as Messiah, not the Son as Son in essence. Don’t forget that Christ is still ministering for us right now as our High Priest in the heavenly sanctuary. So His mission is not yet over.

While this verse tells us that God will be “all in all,” Colossians 3:11 tells us that “. . . Christ {is} all, and in all.”

Thus, Jesus' office as Messiah and Mediator will cease in time, but not His Godhood, since Scripture teaches that He will be “all in all” just as His Father is.

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Mat 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been GIVEN unto me in heaven and on earth.

All authority by agreement was given to Jesus by the Godhead which He is part of.

Kenrch. Read my previous posting which describes Jesus's office or mission as incarnate Messiah.

March 18, 2007 at 9:25 pm#45369

Participant

Hi CB,
You say
“All authority by agreement was given to Jesus by the Godhead which He is part of.”
I see.
But you would have to say that.
So the God committee gave authority to God??
So God or a part of God actually lacked authority to need it to be given?

To realise Jesus is the son of God is to follow scripture, not the JWs
You have much to learn so denigrating others is not where you should be at present.

March 18, 2007 at 9:38 pm#45370

Participant

Kenrch

Quote

He is seated at the right hand of the FATHER

The picture of the ascended Christ phrased as 'seated at the right hand of the Father' is a metaphor meaning that all authority is in Christ's hands. Christ who sits on the right exercises all authority.

March 18, 2007 at 9:51 pm#45372

Participant

Hi CB,
Yes Christ who is at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD has indeed been given all authority by God.
But he is not the God at whose right hand he stands or Who gave him that authority.
All that is added by men to help sustain the dead trinity theory of God.

March 18, 2007 at 10:03 pm#45373

Participant

Nick

Quote

To realise Jesus is the son of God is to follow scripture, not the JWs

Just so that you know who the Son is.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

PHILIPPIANS 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: (6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; {RSV,NIV: “our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch(Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Compare
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

With
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Deu 32:3 Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
1Sa 2:2 There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
Psa 78:35 And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

Compare
Psa 7:8 The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

With
2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Zec 7:11 But they refused to hearken, and pulled away the shoulder, and stopped their ears, that they should not hear.

March 18, 2007 at 10:10 pm#45374

Participant

Hi CB,
Yes the Son of God is a son of God.
If I call you a turnip do you turn into one?
God can call Christ God but it does not make him our God because he is our Lord.

March 18, 2007 at 10:47 pm#45379

Participant

CB,

Where does scripture say this? You are adding to scripture, reading what you believe instead of believing what scripture says.

Rev 3:14 And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

…**the beginning of the creation of God:

Jesus is the “beginning” of WHAT? The CREATION of GOD. Who's CREATION? God's. What did God CREATE? JESUS. When? IN the BEGINNING.
Why do you complicate things? We must read the word with our own eyes. In order to do so one must forget what we was taught by man.

IHL,

Ken

March 18, 2007 at 10:50 pm#45380

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Do you have any verses that confirm your belief about this verse?

March 18, 2007 at 10:56 pm#45381

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2007,23:50)

Hi kenrch,
Do you have any verses that confirm your belief about this verse?

Nick you prove Rev. 3:14 wrong. Why would I bother with you. You just want to argue. I could say Jesus is the only begotten of the Father and you would want more proof. If you have eyes and ears see and listen. When you repent of your problem let me know.

March 18, 2007 at 10:58 pm#45382

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Mar. 18 2007,06:10)

Kenrch.

I understand that you teach others to observe the ten commandment law. I find that commendable.

However because some of your doctrine are of Arian origin, this puts you in conflict with the Sabbath observance commandment.

Before you can fully keep holy the Sabbath Day, it helps to understand who the God of the Sabbath Day is.

See the following.

Jesus the Lord Thy God

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

Mar 2:28 the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

This proves beyond doubt that the Lord of the Sabbath (Jesus) is the LORD thy God.

Just in case you missed it!

Luke 4:2 (Jesus) Being forty days tempted of the devil.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Who was being tempted here? Jesus; The Lord thy God.

Jer 23:5-6 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch (Jesus), and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD (Yhovah)OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Another who just wants to argue.

March 18, 2007 at 11:08 pm#45383

Participant

Quote (Cult Buster @ Mar. 18 2007,22:38)

Kenrch

Quote

He is seated at the right hand of the FATHER

It can't mean what it says! That's not what I was taught.

CB Read with your OWN eyes and not with the eyes of other men. Let the Spirit teach you. Not me! But someone has to point you in the right direction before you walk. ASK GOD! Rely on HIS SPIRIT.

Be nice. All your posts are in bold. Are you mad at someone?

IHL,

Ken

March 18, 2007 at 11:08 pm#45384

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 18 2007,23:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2007,23:50)

Hi kenrch,
Do you have any verses that confirm your belief about this verse?

Hi kenrch,
No I would like witnessing verses so we can establish what you say is truth.
Deut 19
15″A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.
Matt 18
16″But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
2Cor 13
1This is the third time I am coming to you EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.

March 18, 2007 at 11:10 pm#45385

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2007,00:08)

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 18 2007,23:56)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 18 2007,23:50)

Hi kenrch,
Do you have any verses that confirm your belief about this verse?

March 18, 2007 at 11:12 pm#45386

Participant

Hi kenrch,
So that is a no? Then the matter remains unproven, and unprovable.
But Christ is the monogenes Son as there are multiple witnesses to that matter.

March 18, 2007 at 11:18 pm#45387

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 19 2007,00:12)

Hi kenrch,
So that is a no? Then the matter remains unproven, and unprovable.
But Christ is the monogenes Son as there are multiple witnesses to that matter.

Have you proved the word of God wrong yet? Prove Rev. 3:14 wrong! It is the Word of God! Is the word true or the spirit of Nick?

March 18, 2007 at 11:23 pm#45388

Participant

Hi kenrch,
God has backups scriptures written in the Word as proofs just in case we misunderstand and head off into the swamp of confusion.

March 18, 2007 at 11:25 pm#45389