God in the flesh

[sscott]

I'm sure this has been covered in some other thread…but I'm not sure which one.

16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God[a] was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

How do those who do not believe in the Trinity explain this verse?

[NickHassan]

Hi sscott,
Jesus, as a vessel for God from the Jordan, revealed God in him to mankind.

2Cor 5
“19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.”

Col 2.9
” 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

Jn 14
“8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.”

[sscott]

So Nick,

Are you saying Jesus is a God…just not the Father?

[NickHassan]

Hi sscott,
What does scripture say?
Jn 1.1
” 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

1Cor 8
” 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. “

Phil 2.5
” 5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,”

[NickHassan]

Hi sscott,
If you teach God came in the flesh what do you make of these verses?
1Jn 4
” 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.”
2Jn
” 7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

10If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:”

[NickHassan]

Hi sscott,
God was revealed in the flesh in the vessel of the Son of God who partook of flesh – conceived in and born of Mary and the Spirit of God.
Hebrews 2:14
Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

Heb 5
” 4And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”

[942767]

Hi sscott:

I am not a Greek scholar and so I would like someone who may be able to read Greek help me with the actual translation of this verse.

I have looked at various translations for this verse of scripture and I have quoted the New Living translation (which I believe adds clarity to the verse) and the Complete Jewish Bible translation.  I have also looked at JFB commentary at Crosswalk.com and have quoted what he has said.

NLT states:

“Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ appeared in the flesh, and was shown to be righteous by the Spirit.  He was seen of angels and was announced to the nations.  He was believed on in the world and was taken up into heaven”.  (1 Tim. 3:16)

The Complete Jewish Bible states:

“Great beyond question is the formerly hidden truth underlying our faith:  He was manifested physically and proved righteous spiritually, seen by angels and proclaimed among nations, trusted throughout the world and raised up in glory to heaven”.

JFB Commentary states:

“And (that thou mayest know how grand is that truth which the church upholds) Confessedly (so the Greek for without controversy) great is the mystery of godliness: (Namely) HE WHO (so the oldest manuscripts and versions read) was manifested in the flesh (He who) was justified in the Spirit…”.

The JFB commentary says that the oldest manuscripts and versions read HE WHO rather than GOD, and so I will have to go with this explanation.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (sscott @ Nov. 14 2006,15:25)

I'm sure this has been covered in some other thread…but I'm not sure which one. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God[a] was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory. How do those who do not believe in the Trinity explain this verse?

sscott.

No one can see God.

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

But men did see him IN the flesh.
God can also be seen in creation/heavens.

But the truth is that we can only see God through something or someone else.

The main way we see God is through his son.

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[Cubes]

Quote (sscott @ Nov. 14 2006,01:25)

I'm sure this has been covered in some other thread…but I'm not sure which one. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:     God[a] was manifested in the flesh,      Justified in the Spirit,      Seen by angels,      Preached among the Gentiles,      Believed on in the world,      Received up in glory. How do those who do not believe in the Trinity explain this verse?

Hi Sscott:

In agreement to what has already been shared, I also add a few more scriptures to show why the verse you quoted – 1 Tim 3:16 – refutes Trinity.

Jesus along with the apostles and Stephen have stated emphatically that no one has at any time seen God. We begin there. It should suffice, no?
So we either believe their numerous statements or we don't.

Now IF Jesus is GOD, then contrary to those statements, men have seen and touched God. If Jesus is not God, then God remains unseen, untouched, uncrucified, unresurrected, his own voice unheard except in the sense as explained by t8 – in that the glory of God is displayed through the creation and expressly through Christ. And yet this was never understood by any one in the scriptures to mean that the very person of God has been seen, or else would Phillip not have asked Jesus to show him the Father in the first place.

And Jesus' response to him could not have meant that he is the God since he goes to great pains to show on numerous occasions that he is NOT God. So while at first glance isolated verses could seem ambiguous, a closer inspection of the larger body of texts, substantiate that the SON of God was sent to bring us a message from our Father and to redeem us. He carries the Father's own words, seal of authority and commandments to us, and we are to receive him on that merit as spoken by the prophets before hand. We honor him accordingly but do not forget or disregard who is who (Mark 12:1f).

So if we say that God was manifested in the flesh through Christ, then as t8 has said quite well, we can acknowledge Romans 1 and Ps 19 to say that the creation displays what may be known of God. And yet as the creation IS NOT God, but ensues from God and is in existence by the will of God, So is the son not he who sent him.

In both these context, only God is to be recognized and worshipped as God, and the son, receives the glory due him under the authority of God, even as God gives various degrees of glory to lesser nobles of the earth who are under the authority of our exalted Lord Jesus Christ.

(I was recently reading the history of the English/British kings and queens. At one time in the British Kingdom during the rule of Queen Victoria, her kingdom was so vast that the sun never set in her kingdom. Is that not glory? And who sets up the kings and queens of the earth? Is it not YHWH? How much more the Prince of Peace whom many of these imperfect royals around the world, even recognized as their king and lord? Does that not make him their king and so the scriptures fulfilled?) Another topic.

Anyway, while it is true that God gives life to all beings and things as just explained, the two in their essential identities are not the same and not to be confused.

God changes not (a true statement).

a) Therefore, if coming in the form of a man changed him because he became a man, then such a statement is not true of God.

No man has ever seen God (a true statement).

b) Therefore if being in the form of a man, men saw the unchanging God, then could be said to have both seen, touched, and done a whole lot to God. The blessed Mary and mother of our Lord, changed his diapers. As some Jews also put it, his foreskin is buried somewhere and may have decayed or remains living…

Well which is it?
Such thinking is not reconcilable to the scriptures.

Please recall too that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever (so he has to remain his essential self at all times, whether Word, Son of man, Son of God, Prophet of God, Servant of God, Lamb of God, King, Second Adam, Mighty God, etc), which further dismantles the myth that he is the very identity of the Living God. The Living God is not a Prophet, the second Adam, the Lamb, the Son of God or son of any man, etc though he gave rise to such a son.

Please compare:

Mal 3:6 For I YHWH, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed .

Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

To:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

1Jo 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

2 Corinthians 2:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

All spiritual blessings in Christ.

[Cubes]

Quote

I'm sure this has been covered in some other thread…but I'm not sure which one. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God[a] was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory

God dwells in glory: Does not need to be received. Who receives him anyway?
Stephen was received by the greater Jesus.
Who receives God?

[Oxy]

Wow, that was some explaination Cubes.

We know the famous John 1 where it is stated that the Word (Jesus) was with God and the Word was God.

Then we see where He was born, firstborn of God, Son of God. The Bible says Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.

But then we see in John 17:5 where Jesus prays “And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

And in Revelation we see the Word of God returning on the white horse.

Sure He (the Word of God) subjected Himself to become flesh and dwell amongst mankind Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.

Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function,
Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another.

In like manner I see God as being three beings as one God, the Father being the head.

[Proclaimer]

Amen Cubes.

[NickHassan]

Quote (Oxy @ Nov. 17 2006,18:20)

Wow, that was some explaination Cubes.   We know the famous John 1 where it is stated that the Word (Jesus) was with God and the Word was God. Then we see where He was born, firstborn of God, Son of God.  The Bible says Heb 2:9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all. But then we see in John 17:5 where Jesus prays “And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.” And in Revelation we see the Word of God returning on the white horse.   Sure He (the Word of God) subjected Himself to become flesh and dwell amongst mankind Heb 12:2  looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God. Rom 12:4 For even as we have many members in one body, and all members do not have the same function, Rom 12:5 so we the many are one body in Christ, and each one members of one another. In like manner I see God as being three beings as one God, the Father being the head.

Hi Oxy,
Once again it comes down to comparing
what is written with
what you see and
which you give greater validity to.

It should be obvious.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
You compare God with the Body of Christ?
But we are in Christ so are we part of God too?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 18 2006,17:28)

Hi Oxy, You compare God with the Body of Christ? But we are in Christ so are we part of God too?

You are once again putting your own interpreation on what I have written Nick. Please read again what I wrote.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
You say
“In like manner I see God as being three beings as one God, the Father being the head.”

Personal revelation has to be tested for veracity by what is written.
What you are sure about does not appear in the teachings of Christ or the apostles and prophets. Should we rate it with what they teach?
I do not think so.

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,09:10)

Hi Oxy, You say “In like manner I see God as being three beings as one God, the Father being the head.” Personal revelation has to be tested for veracity by what is written. What you are sure about does not appear in the teachings of Christ or the apostles and prophets. Should we rate it with what they teach? I do not think so.

Search the Scriptures Nick.. oh, you already have. Yet still you do not see.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
No trinity there.
God is ONE.
God is the Father.

[NickHassan]

Hi Oxy,
Jesus told the Jews that God was the Father.

Jn 8
” 54Jesus answered,
“If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing;
it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say,
'He is our God';

Should we believe men who would argue with Jesus and instead say NO, NO, God is a being of three parts?

[Oxy]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 19 2006,21:29)

Hi Oxy, Jesus told the Jews that God was the Father. Jn 8 ” 54Jesus answered, “If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, 'He is our God'; Should we believe men who would argue with Jesus and instead say NO, NO, God is a being of three parts?

Yes Nick, God is the Father, Jesus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. Together they make up the Godhead.

What is it that you find so hard to accept about that?

Act 17:29 Then being offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like gold or silver or stone, engraved by art and man's imagination.

Rom 1:20 For the unseen things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being realized by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, for them to be without excuse.

Col 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

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