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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,17:35) Hi Tim2,
Then who is the Son of God?
It is not OK to read Jesus as God and state it as fact but then find others in scripture also called gods and to take a swerve and say because they are created or angels or men or lumps of stone they can safely be excluded. If you choose to follow one line of greek logic you must be consistent to have validity. You are adding interpretation.
Nick,Paul himself excludes Jesus from these other gods in 1 Corinthians 8. Don't tell me you also think Jesus is another god.
Tim
Quote Paul also tells us the relationship in Titus 2:13 -“our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ.” Isaiah 43:11 says there is no saviour besides YHWH. But Jesus is our saviour. Jesus is YHWH. You seemed to completely miss Jude 25. Let me restate it:
“God, our Savior THROUGH Jesus Christ our Lord.” (See also Acts 13:23.)
This scripture EXPLAINS how God is our Savior. This scripture distinguishes the two, and explains the relationship of how God with Jesus and shows how God is our Savior.
Jesus provided his perfect human life as a ransom.
His Father sent him and it was through this action, through Jesus that his Father is a Savior.Quote Isaiah 43:11 says there is no saviour besides YHWH. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both persons are saviors.
It is Jude 25 that shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
As I said before, let's check the context:
“A reading of Isaiah 43:1-12 shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation, or deliverance, for Israel; that salvation did not come from any of the gods of the surrounding nations.”
Hi Nick,
I believe you've said that the judges of Israel have been called gods. Given Jesus' reference to Psalm 82, I believe the “gods” there are the judges of Israel, as the context suggests. These humans, as you say, were called gods.
Now, I don't think you believe that Jesus is only a judge of Israel. Correct me if I'm wrong. But you think he's a created heavenly being of some sort, right?
Anyway, Jesus response to the Jews seems to be, if these other persons were called gods because they received the word of god (as Moses was also called god to Pharaoh), how dare they challenge Him, the one Whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, who does the works of the Father, the One in Whom the Father is, and Who is in the Father.
I agree that human rulers are often called gods in the Old Testament, but, correct me if I'm wrong, you are not saying that Jesus is just a human ruler, are you? I believe you're including him in the other class of gods, the angels and heavenly beings, are you not? It is this categorization I am disputing.
Tim
Oops, that last one was for David. And again David, you really believe that YHWH needs someone else to save creation? For that matter, YHWH needed someone else to create creation? And YHWH lets someone else be His power and wisdom? and so forth
Quote (Tim2 @ April 11 2007,17:40) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,17:35) Hi Tim2,
Then who is the Son of God?
It is not OK to read Jesus as God and state it as fact but then find others in scripture also called gods and to take a swerve and say because they are created or angels or men or lumps of stone they can safely be excluded. If you choose to follow one line of greek logic you must be consistent to have validity. You are adding interpretation.
Nick,Paul himself excludes Jesus from these other gods in 1 Corinthians 8. Don't tell me you also think Jesus is another god.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
In the same chapter he also differentiated for us
the Father as our God
and
the Son of God, Jesus Christ, as our Lord.Nick,
Then you must also believe that the Father is not our Lord?
Do you believe that all thing are not through God, but through someone else? Romans 11:36.
Tim
Quote
I agree that human rulers are often called gods in the Old Testament, but, correct me if I'm wrong, you are not saying that Jesus is just a human ruler, are you?Of course not. I'm only trying to repeatedly say and perhaps get you to first acknowledge that the word “god” is applied to these other ones.
You have just done this.
Now for step 2:
Why?
What does this tell us about the word “god”?
How could it rightly be applied to them?
What does this indicate about it's meaning?Going back to your question, I think you are having great difficulty differentiating between descriptive words and definitions:
You ask:Quote I agree that human rulers are often called gods in the Old Testament, but, correct me if I'm wrong, you are not saying that Jesus is just a human ruler, are you?
human judges CALLED gods.
Nowhere did anyone suggest that gods MEANS human judges.Listen. You, Tim are a person. “person” is a word that describes you, as I'm sure several words do.
But “Tim” does not MEAN or is not defined as “PERSON.”Please acknowledge that you understand this.
Quote And again David, you really believe that YHWH needs someone else to save creation? What I really believe is that Jehovah used his son to accomplish his purpose, his will. I believe that Jesus was the second Adam, the “corresponding ransom” Jesus being a perfect human who “BECAME flesh.”
Jehovah God Almighty would not have been a corresponding ransom. The price would have been too high.
Quote For that matter, YHWH needed someone else to create creation? Does a king build his own temples? Did Solomon? Perhaps he doesn't “need” to do so.
David,
The word God is used first and foremost with respect to YHWH. Its principal meaning is YHWH. Otherwise we're clueless as to who is creating what in Genesis 1.
I agree that the word El in the OT is some times used to refer to other beings, some times favorably, some times not unfavorably. The favorable times seem to be with respect to human rulers and with angels who are properly worshipping YHWH. Some times the human rulers are condemned. Always the false gods and demons are condemned.
But again, in all these cases it's obvious that it's not YHWH, because YHWH is speaking or they're being called false gods, or the gods of the nations, etc. This takes me back to Elohim's principal meaning of YHWH. And it's more than principal. It's identical. YHWH is God. There is no other. This is affirmed over and over again. And it's the first commandment. We can't have other gods before YHWH.
As far as the NT goes, it seems to me John 10 is the only place the human rulers are mentioned, and that's quoting its usage in the OT, and Jesus clearly distinguishes Himself from those gods. The NT comes back to the same place as the OT, there is only one God.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
We expect you to uphold high standards of scriptural expression here and not throw in a bit of logic here and your ideas of inference there is you want to be taken seriously.Quote
The word God is used first and foremost with respect to YHWH. Its principal meaning is YHWH.Why do you keep saying that the “meaning” of “God” is YHWH.
IT IS CERTAINLY WITHOUT QUESTION NOT ALWAYS THE MEANING, AND THEREFORE, not the meaning.
YHWH is most often the one being spoken of with reference to that word, but as it is certainly not true in all cases, it is DEFINITELY NOT the definition or meaning of that word.I thought I explained this with the: You are a human, illustration.
Tim is human
Tim doesn't mean human.
Jehovah is God
Jehovah doesnt' mean God
and God doesn't mean Jehovah.Human doesnt' mean tim
Tim doesn't mean human, ratherTim is human.
“human” is a descriptive word, like “god” and like “god” is applied to more than one, which conveys understanding.
How do you understand it when Moses was called “god” to aaron or “God” to Pharoah or when the judges or angels were called gods?
Do you understand that to “mean” that they were Jehovah?
If not, then stop saying that “god” means Jehovah.
Quote Otherwise we're clueless as to who is creating what in Genesis 1.
I guess if we stopped reading there and only read that one chapter…But,
(Genesis 2:4) “This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven.”And then there's the rest of the Bible:
(Isaiah 45:18) “For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited: “I am Jehovah, and there is no one else.”
(Amos 4:13) “For, look! the Former of [the] mountains and the Creator of [the] wind, and the One telling to earthling man what his mental concern is, the One making dawn into obscurity, and the One treading on earth’s high places, Jehovah the God of armies is his name.””
(Acts 4:24) “Upon hearing this they with one accord raised their voices to God and said: “Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them,”
etc.
Quote I agree that the word El in the OT is some times used to refer to other beings, some times favorably,
So does the word “god” mean YHWH here? No.So what does the word “God” actually mean, if it can be applied to these others?
In other words, when that word is used with reference to them, what is it telling us about them? Why was that word used? What is the basic meaning of that word? And don't say it's YHWH again, because if it is, please tell me how THEY are YHWH.
I'm looking for the basic meaning of that word and the basic meaning. If it is rightly used of those others (and the scripture cannot be nullified) then our idea or definition of the word “god” would have to make sense with all it's uses.You believe that “god” means YHWH.
Well it doesn't mean that. You yourself say:
I agree that the word El in the OT is some times used to refer to other beings, some times favorablySo I again ask:
So what does the word “God” actually mean, if it can be applied to these others?
Hi David,
I really don't see how you can separate God from YHWH. It's the first commandment for crying out loud. You shall have no other gods before YHWH. It seems quite bizarre that your response to this would be, “Ahhah, so there are other gods then? I can no longer use God primarily with reference to YHWH, but must acknowledge that it mainly refers to lots of beings.” This seems quite foolish when Paul says they are all only “so-called gods.”
As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power, as in the gods of the nations, or else it rightly ascribes some degree of power to YHWH's angels or human rulers such as Moses and the judges of Israel. But in the end, we have to come back to, “There is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6, 45:5.
Isaiah also asks, “To whom will you liken God?” 40:18. Again, “To whom then will you liken Me that I would be his equal?” 40:25. People on this board keep trying to say that Jesus is like YHWH. Well this isn't possible. No one is like YHWH. Our only choice is to accept that Jesus is YHWH, only people still won't accept that Jesus is eternally a person, but say he's just a vessel for God or God's Spirit. None of these are faithful to Scripture. Only the Trinity is.
Tim
For all interested in this discussion on other gods, I recommend this website:
http://trisagionseraph.tripod.com/othergodsf.html
Tim
Quote (Tim2 @ April 12 2007,05:14) Hi David, I really don't see how you can separate God from YHWH. It's the first commandment for crying out loud. You shall have no other gods before YHWH. It seems quite bizarre that your response to this would be, “Ahhah, so there are other gods then? I can no longer use God primarily with reference to YHWH, but must acknowledge that it mainly refers to lots of beings.” This seems quite foolish when Paul says they are all only “so-called gods.”
As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power, as in the gods of the nations, or else it rightly ascribes some degree of power to YHWH's angels or human rulers such as Moses and the judges of Israel. But in the end, we have to come back to, “There is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6, 45:5.
Isaiah also asks, “To whom will you liken God?” 40:18. Again, “To whom then will you liken Me that I would be his equal?” 40:25. People on this board keep trying to say that Jesus is like YHWH. Well this isn't possible. No one is like YHWH. Our only choice is to accept that Jesus is YHWH, only people still won't accept that Jesus is eternally a person, but say he's just a vessel for God or God's Spirit. None of these are faithful to Scripture. Only the Trinity is.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Exodus 3:14
God said to Moses, ” I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'”When God spoke these words was it one Person's voice or a chorus of two or three?
Just because you cannot resolve scripture does not give you the right to add to it.
So what does the word “God” actually mean, if it can be applied to these others?
Quote I really don't see how you can separate God from YHWH.
Not sure what that means and I don't want to separate “God” from YHWH any more than I want to separate “human” from you, Tim2.Quote It's the first commandment for crying out loud. You shall have no other gods before YHWH. It seems quite bizarre that your response to this would be, “Ahhah, so there are other gods then?
My response to that commandment is not as you say. But my response to the fact that God's word calls some human's “god” or the angels “gods” makes me interested in why they can be called this–ie: what does the word “god” mean?
You see, if you don't really know what it means, how can you follow that command?Quote This seems quite foolish when Paul says they are all only “so-called gods.” There are clearly some who are no gods at all, despite being called gods. They have no “power” as you say. They are false gods.
Then, there are those who had some degree of “power” such as the Israelite judges, the angels, Satan, and yes, Jesus, who all have the word “God” applied to them.
Then, there is Jehovah who is called God several thousand times. Jehovah is Almighty, without limit in power.
Jehovah is God (powerful) compared to everyone else, including jesus, as he repeatedly called his Father his God, even after his ascension to heaven!Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power,
As do I.Quote As for the meaning of gods when it is applied to these others, I think it either denotes a false assumption of power, as in the gods of the nations, or else it rightly ascribes some degree of power to YHWH's angels or human rulers such as Moses and the judges of Israel. Again, I agree, that when it is used with reference to anyone, it ascribes “power” or strength or might.
So if we had someone who had unlimited mightiness (The Almighty) then they could be described as being the only true one with real power (compared to others) the only true God, right? ? ?
Now, with this clearer understanding,
Quote we have to come back to, “There is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6, 45:5. With this clearer understanding this makes sense. We are no longer troubled by the angels being called “gods” etc, with this above statement. They no longer contradict.
With this understanding of the word “god” all these scriptures finally make sense.Quote Isaiah also asks, “To whom will you liken God?” 40:18. Again, “To whom then will you liken Me that I would be his equal?” 40:25. None! He is the king of eternity, our Creator, with unmatched unlimited power and mightiness. He is the Almighty God.
Quote People on this board keep trying to say that Jesus is like YHWH. Well this isn't possible. No one is like YHWH.
Agreed. Jehovah alone is described as Almighty. Jehovah alone has no God, unlike Jesus and everyone else.Quote Our only choice is to accept that Jesus is YHWH,
That is not our only choice. We have the choice to understand the word “god” correctly, as it is used in its entirety. For a second, i thought you were beginning to see this.david
Tim2 wrote:
People on this board keep trying to say that Jesus is like YHWH. Well this isn't possible. No one is like YHWH. Our only choice is to accept that Jesus is YHWH, only people still won't accept that Jesus is eternally a person, but say he's just a vessel for God or God's Spirit. None of these are faithful to Scripture. Only the Trinity is.
**********************My view is faithful to scripture; and it is possible through scripture. Although it is not a popular view, as I have shared before.
As the Son of God (the literal Son of God), he IS “like” his Father; and a separate person from his Father. Just as your sons are like you, Tim, and they are also different people from yourself.
Our “only choice” is to accept what scripture tells us plainly; and that is, the messiah was predicted to come, he was conceived, he was born of a virgin. Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. If taken literal, these are not hard concepts to grasp. We are not told to believe that Jesus is God. We ARE told to believe that Jesus is the Son of the living God.
I'm not sure when SON OF GOD ever got confused with GOD. I know the religious leaders of Jesus' day were confused on this when they told Jesus he was making himself equal to God. But Jesus corrected them (lets not forget that part), and told him he was the Son of God. Meaning – not God – someone other than God.
David,
So please explain what you think “god” means as applied to Jesus.
The problem is that the New Testament describes Jesus as not just like YHWH, but as YHWH. The Lamb sits on the same throne as God. YHWH would never allow this. The same praise is given to the Lamb as to God. YHWH would never allow this. Nor would YHWH allow salvation to be by the name of another god. Nor would YHWH derive glory from someone kneeling before another god. Nor would YHWH allow another god to be His power. And so forth.
Tim
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