- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,16:15) Hi David, Regarding god, we have to differentiate between Hebrew, Greek, and English. In Hebrew “El” and “Elohim” don't necessarily mean only YHWH. We've been through that before. Now, given this understanding, that everyone knows “El” is basically an old semitic word that refers to power, what point do you think YHWH was trying to make when He said, “There is no god besides Me”? Do you think He wanted us to keep calling other beings El, or do you think He wanted us to not use El unless qualified, as it always is, either by calling them false El, or by clearly calling them a representative of YHWH, as with Moses, or by saying that the El/angels shall worship YHWH, as in acknowledge that they are not El at all, or by saying to the El, “You shall die like men.”
Now the New Testament theon/theos/theoi is far more restrictive, as WJ has pointed out and you haven't responded to. Theos doesn't mean power, it means God. Jesus is called Theos without qualification. Your only response has been John 10, and you have yet to answer me, are these angels or human judges that Jesus is talking about?
Regarding worship, the Bible certainly does teach us to worship Jesus. You just refuse to believe that all the times proskunein is used about Jesus that it can't mean worship. I wonder why the writers used such an ambiguous word if YHWH is so jealous? But Jesus certainly is worshipped when He is confessed as Lord, called Saviour (not “the one THROUGH whom YHWH saves us”), when Peter says, “To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” and when He receives the exact same praise as the Father in Revelation 5:13.
David, I know it's difficult to believe that Jesus is God. That's the last thing sin and the devil want us to believe. That's why this evil cult of the Jehovah's Witnesses has tricked you. But I was there too. I used to think Jesus was just one of the many sons of God. But this is ridiculous. You can't write a book like the New Testament about someone who isn't God. Jesus is God. Please, please, believe, and you will be free.
Tim
DavidConcerning worship. You have never answered my question.
Why did Yeshua use “Proskuneo” the word that was used in worship of himself to describe our worship to the Father in John chapter 4?
And if you bring up the straw how the soldiers mocked him using the word to say that proves it wasnt true worship to Yeshua in every other case, then you should also say that it is not true worship to the Father that he is speaking of then.
Jesus could have used other greek words for honour and bowing down and praise. But he uses “Proskuneo”, and again there is no case where the word is applied to a man or an angel where it was not discouraged other than the Father and Yeshua!
In your opinion why did Jesus use the word to describe worship to the Father?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:15) HiW,
Was Paul a polytheist?
[1Cor 8]
Was Jesus a polytheist?
[Jn10]
NHNo Paul was a Monotheist, and Jesus knew they were not gods at all, for he was God in the flesh.
Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?Quote You yourself argues that the word “Theos” and “Elohim” can mean rulers and judges and angels. Which are no gods at all. When the Bible speaks of ones as being “no gods” at all, it isn't really speaking of the rulers, judges or angels:
(Jeremiah 2:11) “Has a nation exchanged gods, even for those that are no gods? But my own people have exchanged my glory for what can bring no benefit.”
(Jeremiah 16:20) “Can earthling man make for himself gods when they are no gods?”
(2 Chronicles 13:9) “Have YOU not driven out Jehovah’s priests, the sons of Aaron, and the Levites, and do YOU not keep making priests for yourselves like the peoples of the lands? As for anyone that came and filled his hand with power by means of a young bull and seven rams, he became a priest of what are no gods.”
(Deuteronomy 32:39) “SEE now that I—I am he And there are no gods together with me. I put to death, and I make alive. I have severely wounded, and I—I will heal, And there is no one snatching out of my hand.”
(Isaiah 37:19) “And there was a consigning of their gods to the fire, because they were no gods, but the workmanship of man’s hands, wood and stone, so that they destroyed them.”
When the Bible speaks of those that are “no gods” it seems to be those that are the workmanship of man's hands, things that have no “power.”
Then we have scripturs like this:
Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. –2 kings.
With the exception of me there is no God. –Isaiah.These things that were called gods, but were really “no gods” were the work of man's hands and were formed. But they were not really gods.
Compared to Jehovah and from Jehovah's standpoint, there are no Gods but him. He doesn't have a God, unlike Jesus.It's like a human standing in a pile of ants. Imagine that the human standing in a pile of ants is everything, the whole universe. The human may say: “Besides me, there is no one with power.” Yet, we know that among the ants, certain ones have more power than others, the queen for example, the soldiers. Yet, for the human, who can crush them beneath his feet, they have no power, at all. It is laughable to compare the two.
The human could rightly say: With the exception of me, there is no one with power, no mighty one, no strong one.
But to the ants, the view is a little different. From the ants view, of course the human is powerful beyond compare. Yet, to the ant, there are other ants that have power.The problem is that, as Tim 2 says:
Quote Regarding god, we have to differentiate between Hebrew, Greek, and English.
Yet, we tend not to. We go around thinking of the word “God” as meaning “Jehovah,” because that is who it primarily refers too. So we lose the meaning of the actual word.To the ants, they may start calling the human “Powerful.” Now, if one of the ants says another ant is powerful, does that mean the ant is The “Powerful” or the human?
The word “God” is a descriptive term.
Quote So again your NWT is faulty and without credibility. I'm not sure what this specific fallacy is called. (I could find it if I really wanted to,) but your conclusion above is in no way connected to the rest of what you said. Out of nowhere, you just decide to say this, as if it's some slam.
Quote And if you bring up the straw how the soldiers mocked him using the word to say that proves it wasnt true worship to Yeshua in every other case, then you should also say that it is not true worship to the Father that he is speaking of then. No, I don't have to come to that conclusion. It has been proven and accepted even by Tim2 that proskyneo doesn't always mean “worship.”
What the soldiers mocking him does prove is that proskyneo definitely without question doesnt' always mean “worship.”
I am not implying that it means the same thing in every case, as you falsely assert.
WE KNOW it doesn't, otherwise either: God is not to be worshipped, or certain humans are.Quote Jesus could have used other greek words for honour and bowing down and praise. But he uses “Proskuneo”, and again there is no case where the word is applied to a man or an angel where it was not discouraged other than the Father and Yeshua! In your opinion why did Jesus use the word to describe worship to the Father?
Listen, obvioulsy if that word can be applied to human rulers, it can be applied to Jesus. Since we know it has a variety of meanings, and is perhaps a stronger word than the others that mean showing honour, it certainly fits Jesus, as Jesus is certainl worthy of more honour or respect than any human king.
I'm not saying that “proskyneo” with reference to Jesus is the exact same as when used of others. I'm saying it's a word with several shades. And I'm saying that if you're trinitarian, you'll see the “worship” shade with reference to Jesus and use that as a paradoxical support of circular reasoning that supports Jesus being God, which supports Jesus being worshipped, which supports Jesus being God….Quote (kenrch @ April 13 2007,09:49) Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God. That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
KYou say…
Quote Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit? So then there is more than One spirit in us?
The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:50) Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?
NHYes I do make this claim in agreement with the Father and John.
Dont you believe the Fathers own words and the inspired words of John?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:50) Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?
NHYes I do make this claim in agreement with the Father and John.
Dont you believe the Fathers own words and the inspired words of John?
NHBTW And no I am not one of you, because you serve a different Jesus than I do.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:50) Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?
NHYes I do make this claim in agreement with the Father and John.
Dont you believe the Fathers own words and the inspired words of John?
Hi W,
So you admit you are making statements about Jesus that go beyond what he had to say?
Are you greater than him?
Or just brave?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:53) Quote (kenrch @ April 13 2007,09:49) Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God. That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
KYou say…
Quote Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit? So then there is more than One spirit in us?
The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
I think it's more like the Holy Spirit has Jesus Sorry bout that Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son. When we gather in Jesus' name who is in our presents?
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus rejoiced in Spirit some translations say Jesus was full of joy IN THE SPIRIT.
Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit then began to speak to the Father.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2007,05:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:50) Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?
NHYes I do make this claim in agreement with the Father and John.
Dont you believe the Fathers own words and the inspired words of John?
Hi W,
So you admit you are making statements about Jesus that go beyond what he had to say?
Are you greater than him?
Or just brave?
NHJesus made statements that he was YHWH, but you are not listening to his words!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,11:32) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 14 2007,05:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 13 2007,17:50) Hi W,
So the Son of God was also God?
You would make those claims on his behalf
as he never made them?Paul, in 1Cor 8,
differentiated FOR US
Jesus as our Lord
from
his Father our God.Did you not read it
or are you not ONE OF US?
NHYes I do make this claim in agreement with the Father and John.
Dont you believe the Fathers own words and the inspired words of John?
Hi W,
So you admit you are making statements about Jesus that go beyond what he had to say?
Are you greater than him?
Or just brave?
NHJesus made statements that he was YHWH, but you are not listening to his words!
Where did Jesus say thatQuote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:53) Quote (kenrch @ April 13 2007,09:49) Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God. That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
KYou say…
Quote Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit? So then there is more than One spirit in us?
The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
I think it's more like the Holy Spirit has Jesus Sorry bout that Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son. When we gather in Jesus' name who is in our presents?
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus rejoiced in Spirit some translations say Jesus was full of joy IN THE SPIRIT.
Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit then began to speak to the Father.
KSorry this is still not clear to me.
Its still seems like you are seperating Jesus Spirit from the Holy Spirit.
We know God is Spirit!
Is there One Spirit or not?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,11:36) Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:53) Quote (kenrch @ April 13 2007,09:49) Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God. That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
KYou say…
Quote Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit? So then there is more than One spirit in us?
The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
I think it's more like the Holy Spirit has Jesus Sorry bout that Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son. When we gather in Jesus' name who is in our presents?
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus rejoiced in Spirit some translations say Jesus was full of joy IN THE SPIRIT.
Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit then began to speak to the Father.
KSorry this is still not clear to me.
Its still seems like you are seperating Jesus Spirit from the Holy Spirit.
We know God is Spirit!
Is there One Spirit or not?
You don't know if Jesus has the Holy SpiritQuote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:38) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,11:36) Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:15) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,02:53) Quote (kenrch @ April 13 2007,09:49) Jesus the man was filled with God. We are not filled but if born again we have at least some of God. That part of us that is of the Spirit is God. God all in all 1 Cor. 15:28.
Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit?
2Co 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
LORD:
G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): – God, Lord, master, Sir.Jud 1:4 For1063 there are certain5100 men444 crept in unawares,3921 who were before of old ordained4270, 3819 to1519 this5124 condemnation,2917 ungodly men,765 turning3346 the3588 grace5485 of our2257 God2316 into1519 lasciviousness,766 and2532 denying720 the3588 only3441 Lord1203 God,2316 and2532 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ.5547
GOD
G2316
θεός
theos
theh'-os
Of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with G3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively a magistrate; by Hebraism very: – X exceeding, God, god [-ly, -ward].1Co 8:6 But235 to us2254 there is but one1520 God,2316 the3588 Father,3962 of1537 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 in1519 him;846 and2532 one1520 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547 by1223 whom3739 are all things,3956 and2532 we2249 by1223 him.846
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Lord Jesus Christ:
Supreme in authorityOne God the Father
Diety
One LORD one GOD IN ONE SPIRIT
KYou say…
Quote Do we have the Spirit of Jesus that has the Holy Spirit? So then there is more than One spirit in us?
The Spirit of Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
I think it's more like the Holy Spirit has Jesus Sorry bout that Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
I believe the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son. When we gather in Jesus' name who is in our presents?
Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Jesus rejoiced in Spirit some translations say Jesus was full of joy IN THE SPIRIT.
Jesus rejoiced in the Spirit then began to speak to the Father.
KSorry this is still not clear to me.
Its still seems like you are seperating Jesus Spirit from the Holy Spirit.
We know God is Spirit!
Is there One Spirit or not?
You don't know if Jesus has the Holy Spirit
KIf Jesus has the Holy Spirit then that would be 2 Spirits, his and the Holy Spirit.
There is One Spirit, God is Spirit.
The Lord is that Spirit.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Spirit?
Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:40) Do you have the Holy Spirit Was Jesus the Son of Man
KYes but I am not the Spirit.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Spirit!
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,11:42) Quote (kenrch @ April 14 2007,11:40) Do you have the Holy Spirit Was Jesus the Son of Man
KYes but I am not the Spirit.
The Bible says that Jesus is the Spirit!
The bible says Jesus is the Holy Spirit or that Jesus received the holy Spirit without measure? Lets see Jesus is the Holy Spirit but received the Holy Spirit when He was baptized Now I'm confused; How many Spirits is that
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
