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Hi, Im new. Not a big debater but am interested in viewing and will pop in every now and then. I was raised a JW and foud that it was had a form of godliness but rejected the power(I have made Jesus the Lord of my life, and believe that God sent his only begotten son to be my Lord so I can partake in the restoration of a relationship with the father that was once dead but is now alive if we chose it). I am not really sure what to believe for doctrine, but just cant believe in the Trinity. I looked up the definition of Elohim and this is what I have found so far. Elohim can either be plural or singular. When it is in plural form its meaning changes, not to mean many gods but means Strong one. So the Hebrew meaning goes like this. Singular form means Almighty God(the father) Plural form means Strong or might one. Interesting, I wish I knew how to speak Hebrew.
Hi and welcome chloe,
We are all learning from scripture and each other so feel free to join in. We support no denominations and find they limit the discovery of truth. Be reborn into the Son and feed on the Word.When it says in Genesis: The word was god,itwas using plural at that time. Most Hebrews dont believe in the Trinity so Im told. I dont know many that are born again, but we do have one good friend that was born and raised in Isreal, by the Letter. It would be interesting to see what he believes regarding the trinity. I know that there are others that are in the body of Christ that dont believe in the Trinity, but its very hush hush. I wouldnt be surprised if he was one of them, but the subject has never come up. Will post if anything interesting comes up in conversation.
If it says the “Word was God and was using plural that means it was saying Jesus is a strong being not that he was Almighty GOd. Doesnt that prove against the Trinity there?
And thank you Nick. I believe that God doesnt have boundaries in relgions so why should we? We limit God so much. I will find Truth despite a name or denomination and will not throw the baby out with the bath water. The only true way is through Jesus, not through a church or denomination. Truth is truth is truth.
Hi,
Ps 89
“5The heavens will praise Your wonders, O LORD;
Your faithfulness also in the assembly of the holy ones.
6For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD?
Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD,
7A God greatly feared in the council of the holy ones,
And awesome above all those who are around Him?
😯 LORD God of hosts, who is like You, O mighty LORD?
Your faithfulness also surrounds You.So in the heavenly council are holy ones, sons of the Mighty God
and none of them is equal to Him.Who among us has made himself incorruptible to live for ever and ever in likeness as God is;
Who was the god that prevailed who was dead and prolonged his life.
Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;To day you are my son today I have begotten you; the very root of the father of CHRIST and hearken and hear and your soul shall live even the sure mercies of David. A covnant to the elected “god” King David
Who was elected over Mosescharity
Hi charity,
No greatness is found among men-Abraham, Moses, David or Nehemiah-except by the grace of their God.
All became reflections of the grace of God
There is no advantage or superiority found manifest in vessels as to the grace of God.
God chooses the weak to shame the strong that God be found worthy of praise as their source of all glory.When a plate of food is put before you by heavenly hosts
It’s good to eat what you can digest
And it’s rude to use power and control casting the remains to the ground so no one else may eat; by your own knowledge;
Be more attentive to what’s Good than that which is evil keeping the conversation good showing yourself godly mindedI might calrify that it was the relationship that was once dead and not the father, but I think you guys are all smart and saw past my lack of good communications skills.
Hi Chloe,
All men are sons of God through Adam[Lk3]
But God no longer recognises the relationship.
Since Adam obeyed Satan, Satan became the god of this world and the father of all men.
God wants to adopt us back.Hi Chloe,
Sure.
The god is defeated but we must shed his remaining control.
But that god blinds men to what our God has done through His Son.Eph 2
' 1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. '
2Thess 2
'9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders,10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false,
12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
That is why each must repent of their idolatry and love truth, turn back and walk back to God.
For Tim2
The Imperial Bible-Dictionary nicely illustrates the difference between ’Elo·hiḿ (God) and YHWH.
Of the name Jehovah, it says:
“It is everywhere a proper name, denoting the personal God and him only; whereas Elohim partakes more of the character of a common noun, denoting usually, indeed, but not necessarily nor uniformly, the Supreme. . . . The Hebrew may say the Elohim, the true God, in opposition to all false gods; but he never says the Jehovah, for Jehovah is the name of the true God only. He says again and again my God . . . ; but never my Jehovah, for when he says my God, he means Jehovah. He speaks of the God of Israel, but never of the Jehovah of Israel, for there is no other Jehovah. He speaks of the living God, but never of the living Jehovah, for he cannot conceive of Jehovah as other than living.”—Edited by P. Fairbairn, London, 1874, Vol. I, p. 856.Quote Is this how you understand scriptures and Gods truth David by pure logic? How is it logical to believe that a Monotheistic Jew like John write that the Word was “A” God, which is what your NWT translates going against all the major credible translations which were translated by over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars. The way I understand it your translators had no credentials for translating at all.
Hi WJ, speaking of logic, you should try to stay away from using false logic (fallacies). I believe you tend to do this quite a bit, your last sentence being an example.
Paul 'reasoned with them from the scriptures,' so the ability to reason things out can't be looked down upon by you that much, can it?
If something is highly unreasonable we should question it, as I know you believe. If something is highly illogical, such as the “mystery” (a pope's words) of the trinity, we should certainly question it, yes?
Quote The confusion is with you and your weak NWT that says there is more than one God which is polytheism. If YOU define polytheism as the belief that in “many” “gods” and Jesus himself said that there were those who were called “gods” and the scripture cannot be nullified, then….
There is only one true God. Until you figure out what that word means, you will be lost.
How can you know what polytheism is if you don't even know what the word “god” means. I would start there.
Quote It rather indicates that “El” was used in the ancient world to denote power, and, as in pagan Canaan, “the Most High God,” but through the revelation of Scripture God asserted that He alone has all power and is almighty. –Tim 2
Hi Tim2.
I agree that El was used to denote power or strength or mightiness. And I agree that through Scripture Jehovah God asserted that he alone is Almighty having unlimited power.But my question was:
What is the meaning of God if Moses was called the god of Pharoah? What does God mean if the angels have that term applied to them? What does that tell us about the very word “god” and in turn, what does that tell us about Jesus being called God?
Do you think that perhaps if these could be called gods, given that this word indicates one who has great “power” that Jesus (who has been “given” all authority and power) could be rightly described as “God”?
I do.Does this mean that he is God Almighty, just because the word “God” is ascribed to him?
No, because others have that word ascribed to them. With these others, it's clear to everyone that they are not God Almighty. With Jesus, who has a lot more “power” then they ever did, and who is much closer to his Father, it is harder for some to distinguish this.
BUT, just because that word is applied to Jesus in no way in itself proves that Jesus is Jehovah.
If that in itself proved anything, then I ask you to look back at my question and answer it and explain what it means.
All I'm saying in this thread is that we can't simply look at the word “god” and say: “Hey, Jesus is called “God” so he must be Jehovah.”
Because we say this, then we must say it of others too.So I ask what the word “god” means, hoping to find insight or understanding. You continue to say that it indicates “power” and I agree. Everyone who has this word ascribed to them, have power. Some, clearly have more than others.
Since Jesus sits on his Father's throne, as his chosen ones are to sit on his throne with Jesus, then clearly Jesus has massive amounts of power and can rightly be called God.
But, this in itself in no way indicates that he is God, the Father.To me, this is much like the “worship” argument.
1.Jesus is God, because he is worshipped. No, the translators translated that word as “worship” with reference to jesus because they saw him as God Almighty.
2. Since Jesus is worshipped, he must therefore be God Almighty.
3. Since Jesus is God Almighty, we can rightly translate that word (proskyneo) as 'worship'
4. Since Jesus is worshiped, he is clearly God almighty.
etc, etc etc.Much of the trinity belief is based on these pillars, each pillar standing on top of itself.
Wikipedia:
“Polytheism is belief in or worship of multiple gods or deities.”I certainly don't “worship” “multiple gods.”
Jesus directed worship to his Father and his God, Jehovah. This is who I worship.
Do I believe in multiple gods? I believe that the Bible uses the word “god” to refer to humans, judges, and angels, and of course Jehovah God and his Son, Jesus.
“multiple” means more than one. I do believe that those who used those words with reference to these ones were correct in doing so.
I believe this because I know what the word actually means.Hi David,
Regarding god, we have to differentiate between Hebrew, Greek, and English. In Hebrew “El” and “Elohim” don't necessarily mean only YHWH. We've been through that before. Now, given this understanding, that everyone knows “El” is basically an old semitic word that refers to power, what point do you think YHWH was trying to make when He said, “There is no god besides Me”? Do you think He wanted us to keep calling other beings El, or do you think He wanted us to not use El unless qualified, as it always is, either by calling them false El, or by clearly calling them a representative of YHWH, as with Moses, or by saying that the El/angels shall worship YHWH, as in acknowledge that they are not El at all, or by saying to the El, “You shall die like men.”
Now the New Testament theon/theos/theoi is far more restrictive, as WJ has pointed out and you haven't responded to. Theos doesn't mean power, it means God. Jesus is called Theos without qualification. Your only response has been John 10, and you have yet to answer me, are these angels or human judges that Jesus is talking about?
Regarding worship, the Bible certainly does teach us to worship Jesus. You just refuse to believe that all the times proskunein is used about Jesus that it can't mean worship. I wonder why the writers used such an ambiguous word if YHWH is so jealous? But Jesus certainly is worshipped when He is confessed as Lord, called Saviour (not “the one THROUGH whom YHWH saves us”), when Peter says, “To Him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.” and when He receives the exact same praise as the Father in Revelation 5:13.
David, I know it's difficult to believe that Jesus is God. That's the last thing sin and the devil want us to believe. That's why this evil cult of the Jehovah's Witnesses has tricked you. But I was there too. I used to think Jesus was just one of the many sons of God. But this is ridiculous. You can't write a book like the New Testament about someone who isn't God. Jesus is God. Please, please, believe, and you will be free.
Tim
Quote (david @ April 13 2007,14:57) Quote Is this how you understand scriptures and Gods truth David by pure logic? How is it logical to believe that a Monotheistic Jew like John write that the Word was “A” God, which is what your NWT translates going against all the major credible translations which were translated by over 500 Greek and Hebrew scholars. The way I understand it your translators had no credentials for translating at all.
Hi WJ, speaking of logic, you should try to stay away from using false logic (fallacies). I believe you tend to do this quite a bit, your last sentence being an example.
Paul 'reasoned with them from the scriptures,' so the ability to reason things out can't be looked down upon by you that much, can it?
If something is highly unreasonable we should question it, as I know you believe. If something is highly illogical, such as the “mystery” (a pope's words) of the trinity, we should certainly question it, yes?
Quote The confusion is with you and your weak NWT that says there is more than one God which is polytheism. If YOU define polytheism as the belief that in “many” “gods” and Jesus himself said that there were those who were called “gods” and the scripture cannot be nullified, then….
There is only one true God. Until you figure out what that word means, you will be lost.
How can you know what polytheism is if you don't even know what the word “god” means. I would start there.
DavidRead your bible with open eyes.
You yourself argues that the word “Theos” and “Elohim” can mean rulers and judges and angels. Which are no gods at all.
Do you think that Yeshua would be calling men gods and putting them in the same class as the Father and Yeshua?
Paul says they are “So called Gods”. And I dont believe Jesus fits in that catagory, if you do fine.
But there is only One God and not 2.
Give me “one example” David in the New Testament where “Theos” is ascribed to a *living* king or ruler or angel or son of the most high God.
It was not found in the mouths of the saints, and neither should it be found in ours.
Polytheism
Compact Oxford English Dictionary
“belief in several deities”: the worship of or belief in more than one deity, especially several deitiesMerriam-Webster's Online Dictionary
“belief in” or worship of more than one godCambridge International Dictionary of English
“belief in many different gods”Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia
“Polytheism is belief in” or worship of multiple gods or deities. The word comes from the Greek words poly+theoi, literally “many gods.”Webster's Revised Unabridged
The doctrine of, “or belief in”, a plurality of gods.http://www.onelook.com/?loc=pub&w=polytheism
So again your NWT is faulty and without credibility.
welcome chloe
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