God’s Family

[Cubes]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ July 09 2006,07:21)

This is why Jesus calls them gods, because this is why he came to make us gods. Joh 10:35  If he called them gods, UNTO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME, and the SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN; Joh 10:36  Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? Those that are called gods are ALL Sons of the most high. Psa 82:6  I have said: You are gods and ALL OF YOU THE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH. How do we become Sons of God to partake in his divine nature?

Hi SS:

I agree that the sons of God may be called Gods as scripture shows, but your premise is at fault as you seem to confuse Jesus with his Father:  it is not Jesus who calls them Gods, it is the Father who calls them Gods.  It is the Father who pronounces Moses a God to Pharoah.  It is the Father who pronounces Christ as a God, and his other sons as Gods. Jesus was merely quoting the Father in John 10:35.

This also clearly shows why the Father is the GOD Most High.

Also to say that Jesus, the Son of God is the King of Israel and so God (Most High), does not work.

King David was a king of Israel, as was Solomon.  Ahab was King of the 10 Northen Tribes, etc.

And being a King of Kings is a title that applies to earthly emperors as well and in and of itself, does not make one Christ nor does it make Christ, a king equal to or above his Father.  The Father installed his Son as King (Hebrews 1:8-9).  His Son may himself install kings (the overcomers will have thrones and rule nations).  BUT NO ONE installs the Father as King.  He just is, and this is what makes him the ultimate Alpha and Omega and King of Kings.  It is as the centurion said, a matter of authority!  This is the faith and understanding that Jesus praised in the Centurion.  Jesus is Lord under his Father's authority.  The Father is under no one's authority.

Much love to you.

[NickHassan]

Hi ss,
You say;
“2Pe 1:3  ACCORDING AS HIS DIVINE POWER HATH GIVEN UNTO US ALL THINGS that pertain unto life AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are GIVEN UNTO US EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: that by these ye might be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

His Divine Nature, the Greek word is phusis foo'-sis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: – ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:”For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”

This is why Jesus calls them gods, because this is why he came to make us gods.”

My view;

Christ was filled with the Spirit of God, which is the fullness of deity, because of the Father's Spirit filling his vessel he was able to reveal the full nature and abilities of his Father God on earth. We too can continue that work by Christ's Spirit in us.

To become partakers of the divine nature we must first be reborn into Christ by water and the Spirit. That Spirit can grow in us and begin to sprout and show leaves and the fruit of the nature of God. As we allow that Spirit can lead and teach us from within and make us into new creations, sons of God.

God does not want to make us gods. Peter's second letter shows us what graces we need to pray for so that fullness can grow in us to the extent God wishes so we can be His bondservants forever. We are not worshipped but have the privelege to be used of the Spirit of God for the purposes of God.

[seminarian]

Truth Seeker,

First off, there is no scripture which calls our Lord Jesus the “eternal” Son.  This is a term added to scriptures and I see it was slipped into your post as well. What the scriptures DO say, more than 49 times in fact, is the Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  Read Roman's 16:26.  Only the Father is eternal.  Our Lord Jesus was begotten by the Father so there was a time when Jesus was not.  The same can not be said of the Father who “begot” him and who alone is eternal just by this very fact.  “..prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God so that all nations might believe and obey Him 27 to the ONLY WISE GOD be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. [Romans 16:26-27]

Likewise the words trinity, triune and God the Son are NOT found anywhere in scripture.  They were added by men.

So many wish to explain away the scripture which clearly teaches that God the Father is the “head” of Christ, however, your's is perhaps the most creative.  Once again your explanation has no Biblical basis because when all is said and done, Christ will return the Kingdom back over to his God and Father after ruling by GOD'S AUTHORITY for 1,000 years. Read:

“When he has sone this, then the Son himself will be made SUBJECT to Him who PUT everything under him, so that God may be all in all. [ 1 Cor. 15:28 ]

Sorry but that is no co-equal, co-eternal relationship as the trinity doctrine dictates. No matter what flavor of trinity doctrine you subscribe to, they ALL center on that.

I'll ask you the same questions I asked the pastor of education at my church:

1.) Does God the Father have a god?   Yes/No

2.) Does Jesus Christ our Lord have a God?  Yes/No

Now your answers must be based on sound scripture, not what the trinity doctrine says you must answer.  Also base your answers on what the Bible actually says, not some individual interpretation.

Bless ya' much,

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Hi s,
Yes.

1Jn 5.11
“…God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son”

We are given eternal life.
That life does not go backwards into eternity but forwards into eternity.

Eternity is not necessarily a retrospective term.

[seminarian]

Hey Nick,

Agreed.  However when trinitarians made up the term, the Eternal Son of God,
they are specifically referring to the co-equal, co-eternal portion of the trinity
doctrine.  

They are saying that Christ, retrospectively, is co-eternal with the
Father.  As the begetter, the Father had to be there FIRST to
beget our Lord.

That was the point I was addressing.  Also “Eternal” may not be the most accurate
translation of the original Greek even though it is used in many translations.
I'll look or you can also at a Greek interlinear.  If the word is
anion it should be translated as eon or age, i.e. a set period of time.
Eternal means always having been. Without beginning or end.
Everlasting however, would be more accurate in this scripture:

1Jn 5.11
“…God has given us everlasting, life and this life is in His Son”

To clarify this even more, here is Young's Literal Translation which holds true to the definition I gave of eon = age. Check Bullinger's Companion Bible which is from the KJV but he also does a word study on eon.

1John 5:11
“…that God did give to us life age-during and this – the life – is His Son.

Now that is very literal but closer in fact to the original Greek translation.

Best,

Semmy

[NickHassan]

Thanks s,
Of course their view denies that Jesus is the only begotten son of God because a son derives from a father.
Since they say God came in flesh again they deny the physical sonship of Jesus to God.

There are scriptures in 2 Peter and somewhere else about those who deny the Master.

[Cubes]

Quote (seminarian @ July 11 2006,09:45)

Truth Seeker, What the scriptures DO say, more than 49 times in fact, is the Jesus Christ is the Son of God.  Read Roman's 16:26.  Only the Father is eternal.  Our Lord Jesus was begotten by the Father so there was a time when Jesus was not.  The same can not be said of the Father who “begot” him and who alone is eternal just by this very fact.  “..prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God so that all nations might believe and obey Him 27 to the ONLY WISE GOD be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen. [Romans 16:26-27]

Amen, Semmy.

[Cubes]

Quote (Scripture Seeker @ July 10 2006,02:53)

Looking at 1Co 11:3 1Co 11:3  But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Indeed you are correct. But I always have to look “before the fall” and after the “restoration from the fall” to see what’s going on. Looking at Man and Women. Before the fall, Man and Women where equal Gen 3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; AND THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND, AND HE SHALL RULE OVER THEE. It wasn’t until after the Women lead the Man into Sin that God made the Man the head of the Family. Restoration after the fall, man and women will again be equal. Gal 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Notice also in Gen 3:16 it says that Husband will be head over there Wife it does not mention all men being head over all women. So I believe Men are only head of there own Wife’s and not other Women. When we are made Sons and Daughters of God this will no longer matter. Luk 20:35  But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, NEITHER MARRY, NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE:

Hi SS:

Eve is hardly mentioned.  Adam bears the brunt of what happened.  Why?

He is noted as the first Adam through whom death came as you aptly showed elsewhere in your posts, and Christ, the FIRSTBORN of all creation is in this case, even considered the Second Adam, just for clarification.  Why is Adam the First Adam?  Cos he was here first.  I was even willing to look at Adam as meaning Adam and Eve, or mankind, but this didn't work

[seminarian]

BLESS YOU CUBES!

Whew!  Nothing gets by you.  This is just what I tried to explain to the pastor o' education at the church I serve.  He still appears bummed out that he lost the debate as I showed him IN SCRIPTURE that Jesus has a God.  

Excellent clarification on Psalm 82:6.  I am reviewing the Apostles Bible which are the same Greek scriptures that our Lord and his disciples used and quoted from.  It offers even more clarification because like Young's, it is a very literal translation.

Anyway you wrote, (brilliantly I might add)…..

“I agree that the sons of God may be called Gods as scripture shows, but your premise is at fault as you seem to confuse Jesus with his Father: it is not Jesus who calls them Gods, it is the Father who calls them Gods. It is the Father who pronounces Moses a God to Pharoah.  It is the Father who pronounces Christ as a God, and his other sons as Gods. Jesus was merely quoting the Father in John 10:35.

This also clearly shows why the Father is the GOD Most High.

Also to say that Jesus, the Son of God is the King of Israel and so God (Most High), does not work.

King David was a king of Israel, as was Solomon.  Ahab was King of the 10 Northen Tribes, etc.

And being a King of Kings is a title that applies to earthly emperors as well and in and of itself, does not make one Christ nor does it make Christ, a king equal to or above his Father.  The Father installed his Son as King (Hebrews 1:8-9).  His Son may himself install kings (the overcomers will have thrones and rule nations).  BUT NO ONE installs the Father as King.  He just is, and this is what makes him the ultimate Alpha and Omega and King of Kings.  It is as the centurion said, a matter of authority!  This is the faith and understanding that Jesus praised in the Centurion.  Jesus is Lord under his Father's authority.  The Father is under no one's authority.”  

BOO-YAH Cubes!!!!

Once again here are those two key questions that put everything in perspective:

1.)  Does our Lord Jesus have a God?  Yes/No

2.)  Does God the Father have a god?  Yes/No

Though the Lord Jesus is certainly God as he defined himself in Psalm 82:6, we must always remember that everything that made him “God” or like his Father was GIVEN to HIM FROM THE FATHER.  Is there anyone who would even dare to say that someone GAVE God the Father all that HE possesses?
I don't think so.  

Thanks for posting this reply as it was much more detailed than my own but given the circumstances of the minds of the pastor at the church, would most likely have been rejected also.

Bless ya'

Semmy

[Proclaimer]

Quote (seminarian @ July 12 2006,16:13)

Agreed. However when trinitarians made up the term, the Eternal Son of God, they are specifically referring to the co-equal, co-eternal portion of the trinity doctrine.

Hi Semmy.

Yes they believe in an eternal generation of the son, which means that the son has always proceeded from the Father, that is eternal past and into the future.

But scripture doesn't support this eternal generation theory.

He came from God and was with God as the Word.

John 8:42
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me.

John 16:27
No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God.

But the so-called scholars and wise think differently from the above 2 scriptures.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

[Scripture Seeker]

Hello Friends,

Thanks for your replies I have gone over them and prayed about them and personally believe there is a misunderstanding of the nature of Jesus.

I have no problem with the revelations of Jesus being the Son of Man. There are many revelations of him being the Son of Man, both in the Old Testament and the New Testament. This is not by concern I agree with all of these scriptures, they are beautiful revelations of “the word” in his humble state, taking on the nature of a mere mortal man.

It is of no concern to me that Jesus is revealed as a servant because he is also revealed as the Son of God who was begotten and NOT made, creator and saviour among many “many” examples where God says see ye that I am alone, there is no one before me, there is no one beside me and there will be no one after me. Now surely everyone believes that Jesus “the word” existed before these people, the ones that where inspired by the Holy Spirit to write these scared scriptures?
If so, why is it then, that every time God says “see that I am alone”, Jesus “the word” is always revealed? Read the first few posts again see for your self.    
   
I truly believe the misunderstanding is with Jesus the person who becomes man thus taking upon himself a second nature. Jesus is unique he has 100% the nature of his Father and 100% the nature of his creation, Man.

The “WHAT” identifies the NATURE. To identify the nature of Jesus we ask “WHAT” is he? He is truly the Son of God, “Gods nature” and he is the true Son of Man, “Mans Nature”.
Jesus therefore has two natures!  

The “WHO” identifies the PERSON. To identify the person of Jesus we ask “WHO” is he? He is the Saviour the redeemer of every soul “ever” to walk the face of the earth, this is the key personal characteristic of who Jesus is.

A person cannot exist without a nature, e.g. it is “He” who processes a “nature”.
The nature describes what “He” can do e.g. as a human “He” can have a God, he can eat, sleep, laugh, and he can even die.
Nature limits humans, I haven’t got wings or gills so I can’t fly and I can’t live under water and I definitely can’t walk on water at my desire.

So the nature describes what a person can do. But it is a person who does them.

The nature is the source of operations and these operations are always done by persons.

Even though Jesus had two natures, Jesus was a single person.
Jesus in his human nature was a single person and that person was the Saviour, there was no human person [He was not from the dust], there was only a human nature otherwise there would have been two persons each with his own nature.
Jesus human nature was complete but it was united to his nature as the Son of God. This is why he is only one person but he can still have two natures.
Semmy this is why Jesus “the word “can have his Father as his God also, because he is also a man by nature. But this is by far the lesser revelation, Jesus called God his Father over 170 times in the New Testament. It is important to note that it is only by Jesus taking on a second nature that we have the hope of being ADOPTED Sons of God. So to try and use the voluntary second nature as proof that he is not the nature of God is dangerous grounds to be walking on, well it is for me anyway.

The Holy Spirit writes the following in scared scripture. Ask yourself is HE talking about the Father or the Son.

1Ti 3:16  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH, JUSTIFIED IN THE SPIRIT, seen of angels, PREACHED UNTO THE GENTILES, believed on in the world, RECEIVED UP INTO GLORY.

We know the Father did not come in the flesh, and we also know that the Father wasn’t received up into glory. But we do know that Jesus came in the flesh, to say otherwise is to be deceived and to be lead by the spirit of the antichrist. 1Jo 4:3 & 2Jo 1:7
We also know that Jesus was received up into glory, the glory that he had with the Father from the beginning. So the “God that was manifest in the flesh” is GOD BY NATURE and SON BY PERSON, it is God the Son.

Anyway I would like to look at the two greatest revelations of who God is. Then reveal how God can’t possibly live in solitude as one person and still be revealed as……

1: Eternal Father
2: Love

God is Eternal Father
The Father is the Father of all glory, all life, all power and the limitless intensity of knowledge WHICH IS HIS SON.
The Father DID NOT HAVE TO WAIT until he was old enough or mature enough to beget a Son. Either did the Father have to wait until he was lonely enough. God needs no other outside his nature. Being a Father and having a Son go hand in hand, YOU CANNOT HAVE AN ETERNAL FATHER WITHOUT AN ETERNAL SON.

Some people get confused with the following verse.
Rev 3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning (Arche) of the creation of God;
The word “beginning” is the Greek word arche it’s where we get our word “architect” from. It means chief in various applications of order, time, place or rank.
To say otherwise is to say that the Father also had a beginning, because the same word is used for the Father below.

Rev 21:6-7  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING (ARCHE)  and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.

Jesus is truly eternal and is revealed so in scripture.

Mic 5:2  But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, FROM EVERLASTING [‛ôlâm  ].

The word for everlasting here is olam, it is the same word used to show the Father is everlasting, there is no stronger word to indicate everlasting!

H5769
עלם    עולם
‛ôlâm  ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, THE VANISHING POINT; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) ETERNITY; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) ALWAYS: – ALWAYS (-S), ANCIENT (time), any more, CONTINUANCE, ETERNAL, (for, [n-]) EVER (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), PERPETUAL, AT ANY TIME, (beginning of the) world (+ WITHOUT END). Compare H5331, H5703.

The Son is the exact image of his Father, his very nature. This is because they are of one eternal nature.

Col 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn [PRŌTOTOKOS] of every creature:
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, VISIBLE AND INVISIBLE, WHETHER THEY BE THRONES, OR DOMINIONS, OR PRINCIPALITIES, OR POWERS: all things were created by him, AND FOR HIM:

That’s right EVERYTHING invisible or visible was created FOR HIM, he will be more than just a brother in heaven friends, he is the every nature of his Father. The nature describes WHAT something is, Jesus nature is God. It is only the person who is different, the WHO describes the person.

Col 1:17  And he is before all things, AND BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.

Please read this slowly..

Heb 1:3  Who being the BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, and the express image [EXACT IMAGE] of his person [ESSENCE/SUBSTANCE], and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had BY HIMSELF PURGED OUR SINS, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This is why Jesus reveals himself as a true Son and not just one of the arch angels. In fact he created the arch angels in perfect un
ity with his Father. They where created by the one nature, the Creator and Saviour.
To insult the nature of the Son is to insult the nature of the Father. A perfect eternal Father “Fathers” a perfect eternal Son perfectly in HIS OWN NATURE from his own essence/substance ONE NATURE BUT YET DIFFERENT PERSON. God the Father cannot exist as a Father without an Eternal Son, he cannot live in solitude, and the New Testament reveals him as Father over 250 times.  

God is Eternal Love

1Jo 4:8  HE THAT LOVETH NOT knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
1Jo 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. GOD IS LOVE; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

We know God is spirit and we also know God is Love. I believe Love is a quality of the spirit. E.g. How much does it weigh? What colour is it? How big is it?
It defies physical nature but it is of spiritual nature. It is a gift of the spirit, from the breath of God which proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

By revealing what Love is we reveal the invisible nature of God.

First we know that Love does not live in Solitude and it doesn’t bear witnesses of itself, it is all life giving and it is eternal because God is eternal.

We also know that the fullness of ones love is only interchangeable with an equal.
E.g.  If I was trapped on an island with only a cat or a dog I could not possibly love these animals as I could another human. In fact I would eventually end up cooking these animals up once starvation kicked in.
Now if God had none to love apart from inferiors it would be hard to believe that God is Love. We can not love God with adequate love as we are finite and we can’t fully respond to Gods infinite love, neither can we fully comprehend it.

If God was one person in solitude it would be hard to believe how God is Love, I can’t image the Father eternally loving himself, but I can very easily imagine the Father eternally loving his only Son, with there eternal relationship of there love being the Holy Spirit. In the Son and the Holy Spirit infinite love is infinitely returned. Love is ever giving and doesn’t seek its own glory it is not self-centred or selfish OR BOASTFUL.
Love can never fail because it is who God is.

1Co 13:8  [LOVE] CHARITY NEVER FAILETH: but whether there be PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; whether there be TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE; whether there be KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY.
1Co 13:9  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Co 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
1Co 13:11  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12  FOR NOW WE SEE THROUGH A GLASS, DARKLY; but then face to face: NOW I KNOW IN PART; BUT THEN SHALL I KNOW EVEN AS ALSO I AM KNOWN.
1Co 13:13  And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity [Love].

Satan always attacks Love, he fools the man made Churches into believing they are justified without it and his greatest trick is to try and isolate the saviour who bought us from the greatest commandment of Love. Let’s not turn our Saviour into mere man. Jesus doesn’t belong to the commandment given to serve creation he belongs to the commandment that is given to serve creator, remember we are made FOR HIM.

It is impossible for God to live in solitude as an Eternal Father especially as perfect Eternal Love.

Please take the time to read the 13 descriptions applied to Father Son and Holy Spirit.

VII. 13 DESCRIPTIONS APPLIED TO ALL THREE IN THE TRINITY

http://web.archive.org/web/20040217141524/ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ99.HTM

Love and Blessings in the name of Jesus

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
If Jesus called God”father”170 times why will men not believe he really is the Son of God?

Your words
“Semmy this is why Jesus “the word “can have his Father as his God also, because he is also a man by nature. But this is by far the lesser revelation, Jesus called God his Father over 170 times in the New Testament.”

You say he is a true son of God then claim he has never been separate from that God. What gives?

“This is why Jesus reveals himself as a true Son and not just one of the arch angels.”

God is a Father but the same statement says He has begotten a Son -so though they come to us from”the beginning” the Son has an origin but you say
.
” God the Father cannot exist as a Father without an Eternal Son, “

If Jesus was like to us in all ways except sin then he too was of the dust through Mary. You misunderstand the anointing at the Jordan when the vessel of Jesus was filled with the glorious treasure, the fullness of the Spirit of God such that he thence revealed the powers and nature of God himself such that “God was manifest in the flesh”.

It was not his own power from his own divine origins, as he shed all such glory and advantages [Phil 2]when he came as a servant. But you suggest he was God and that God was created!

“Even though Jesus had two natures, Jesus was a single person.
Jesus in his human nature was a single person and that person was the Saviour, there was no human person [He was not from the dust], there was only a human nature otherwise there would have been two persons each with his own nature.
Jesus human nature was complete but it was united to his nature as the Son of God. This is why he is only one person but he can still have two natures”

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
You say
“I truly believe the misunderstanding is with Jesus the person who becomes man thus taking upon himself a second nature. Jesus is unique he has 100% the nature of his Father and 100% the nature of his creation, Man.”
“GOD BY NATURE and SON BY PERSON, it is God the Son.”
“The “WHAT” identifies the NATURE. To identify the nature of Jesus we ask “WHAT” is he? He is truly the Son of God, “Gods nature” and he is the true Son of Man, “Mans Nature”.
Jesus therefore has two natures! “
“The Son is the exact image of his Father, his very nature.”
“A person cannot exist without a nature, e.g. it is “He” who processes a “nature”.”

So To be a Son of God is just to possess the nature of God.

Scripture shows there are other sons of God with God. Are they in the same relationship with the Father as the only begotten Son? Does God have many, many persons in Him rather than just three then?

How can a person be a person, and be with God, but not ever begotten from God? You call Jesus the only begotten Son but your begettal seems incomplete if Jesus is still conjoined with his Father.

Are all the sons still conjoined with their Father too?

How can God, out of Love, love a being who is not separate from Him?

If the Son is still a part of God is not not rather unsurprising that God loves Himself?

[NickHassan]

Hi SS,
Was Jesus ever a being?
Was he a divine being?
Did he become a human being?
If he was never a human being was it just an illusion men saw?
Or is Jesus only only a person in God?
Scripture says he has been given to have “life in himself”
Does that not make him a being?
Is a person not a being?

[seminarian]

Quote (t8 @ July 12 2006,23:49)

Quote (seminarian @ July 12 2006,16:13) Agreed.  However when trinitarians made up the term, the Eternal Son of God, they are specifically referring to the co-equal, co-eternal portion of the trinity doctrine. Hi Semmy. Yes they believe in an eternal generation of the son, which means that the son has always proceeded from the Father, that is eternal past and into the future. But scripture doesn't support this eternal generation theory. He came from God and was with God as the Word. John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. John 16:27 No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. But the so-called scholars and wise think differently from the above 2 scriptures. 1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

Exactly T8,

It is simple to deduce knowing the Father to be the “begetter” of our Lord, He had to be here first. Also
as the “begotten” Son of God, there was a time when
our Lord was not. Arius deduced this and the majority of Christians before the Nicean Council of 325 AD agreed with him. Even Turtullian, the father of the trinity doctrine, said Christ was in a position “inferior” to the Father. Say those words to a trinitarian today and watch them explode!

I really liked your closing scripture from 1 Cornithinans 1:20 asking where is the scholar, philosopher and wise(guys) of this age. Very true! I have listened to and researched really old southern spirituals and gospel music. Now these were written by humble, illiterate slaves but one song really got to me as far as understanding the simplicity of the sound doctrine of Christ.

It goes in part:

“As soon as I see my King Jesus, the MAN who died for me, the man who bled and suffered, you know he hung on Calvary…”

There is no third person of the trinity or God found in three persons in that song! That stuff came from the high minded scholars, wise men and philosophers. This poor slave even knew:

1.) Jesus was her King

2.) That he was a man. (Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the FLESH is FROM GOD. [1 John 4:2])

3.) That he died on Calvary for her and was raised to life by God.

So that scripture caps it of beautifully. Thanks for that T8!

Homework awaits,

Semmy

[seminarian]

Uh Scripture Seeker,

You said this, (without qualification or scriptural support I might add):

Scripture Seeker said:  “We also know that Jesus was received up into glory, the glory that he had with the Father from the beginning. So the “God that was manifest in the flesh” is GOD BY NATURE and SON BY PERSON, it is God the Son.”

First of all the word MANIFEST means to make clear.  You are implying that God was incarnated, a word that is NOT in the Bible at all.  There is a vast difference between manifest and incarnation, the latter of which is what you are intimating.  In fact the Bible clearly says God is not a man.  So your claim of “God as the Son” becoming a man is impossible according to Hosea 11:9 which says: “For I AM GOD and NOT a man.”

Second of all, your blithely calling our Lord Jesus, “God the Son” is also NOT in the Bible.  Nowhere in scripture is Jesus ever called God the Son.  However he IS called the Son of God more than 49 times so you've missed out on this point also.

Third of all you assume our Lord had TWO natures. That is another extra-Biblical doctrine not found ANYWHERE in scripture but invented by the Roman Catholic Church. Our Lord was fully human as the scriptures say he had to be made just like his brothers. Sorry but I don't have a God-nature but by way of the gift of holy spirit, I do have the indwelling of God's nature even as Christ did. That's how we are told in Revelation 3:21 by Jesus to overcome as he has overcome. That would be impossible for me unless I was 100% God and 100% man as your belief suggests.

See you can't add words and definitions to the Bible that just aren't there.  The Catholic Church started doing this with the Council of Nicea in 325 AD and that's where most of these extra-Biblical creeds came from. Trinity, triune, incarnation, God the Son and the alleged dual nature of Christ are all words not in the Bible nor were they ever taught by Christ and his apostles.

Likewise when you have Jesus being called the Son of God more than 49 times in God's Word, guess what?  Jesus Christ is THE SON OF GOD!  Now wasn't that easy?

I'll let the others illucidate on the other errors in your post, (I saw quite a few).  I've got homework.

Best,

Semmy  (Oh brother, I need another Tylenol)  

[Is 1:18]

Quote

It is simple to deduce knowing the Father to be the “begetter” of our Lord, He had to be here first.  Also as the “begotten” Son of God, there was a time when our Lord was not.

Seminarian,
Since you appear to understand “Son of God” means that the Logos was begotten pre-incarnation, I wonder if you can substantiate this by supplying us with scripture that explicity bears this out?

Did the begettal happan pre-incarnation Seminarian? – Show me where it is written.

Blessings

BTW, I asked you two questions in the Heb 1:8 thread. Do you intend to answer them?

[Is 1:18]

Quote

It is simple to deduce knowing the Father to be the “begetter” of our Lord, He had to be here first.  Also as the “begotten” Son of God, there was a time when our Lord was not.

Was there a time where the Lord was not?

No.

Why?….

Time is not an abstract notion, a machination conceived in the minds of men. It is a physical property of the universe. The universe is in fact a continuum of time, space and matter, and all three are irrevocably interlinked, i.e. none of which can have a meaningful existence without the other two (Einstein’s GTR). So if matter was not in existence 'in the beginning', neither was space, or time. Time is a 'thing' Seminarian.

Who created all things?

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

The Logos did. He created all things, not some things and not others – ALL things. Even assuming that the Logos began to exist at all (which is patently unscriptural), His existence would had to have preceded the creation of time itself. So He would not have existed in time, but outside of it. There cannot logically be a time when the Logos did not exist if He preceded the advent of time….

Understand?

Quote

It is simple to deduce knowing the Father to be the “begetter” of our Lord, He had to be here first.  Also as the “begotten” Son of God, there was a time when our Lord was not.

Chronological terminology like 'first', 'last', 'before' and 'after' are appropriate only within a framework of a time-space continuum. There is no “first” in the context of timelessness. There are no succession of moments Seminarian. If you exist in a timeless environ, you transcend time itself, and are, by definition, a time-less being.

Blessings

[NickHassan]

Hi Is.18,
You are right.
Time as a measure of the continuum of life began to exist only as shown in Genesis with the creation through the Son of those things by which time is measured in the universe.

But the Son was present in that eon before time called “the beginning”. He, the Word, was “with God in the beginning”. So too Satan has sinned from the “beginning”[1Jn 38] and has been a murderer from”the beginning”[Jn 8.44]With the other sons of God they were present when the foundation of the earth was laid[ Jb 38.4f].
Indeed all things came through the Son, the only begotten god, the firstborn of creation- in the beginning.

[Proclaimer]

True. If time is a product of creation, then God created time as we know it, through Christ.

So I do not agree with Arius's statement that “There was a time when the son was not”. Unless he was just hard pressed to find a word that meant moment before time.

Justin Martyr (approx 150 A.D) taught that the Son came forth from God, that the son was begotten from the unbegotten God who is the Father. He said that Jesus is the true son of God and holds second place after God himself.

he also said the following:
and just as we see also happening in the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled, but remains the same, and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself, not diminishing that from which it was kindled.

Then Tatian (approx 165 A.D) wrote the following a little later:
And by His simple will the Word sprang forth, and the Word, not coming forth in vain, became the firstbegotten work of the Father . Him [the Word] we know to be the Beginning of the world (cf. Rev. 3:14). But He came into being by participation, not by cutting off, for what is cut off is separated from the original substance, but that which comes by participation, making its choice of function, does not render him deficient from whom it is taken. For just as from one torch many fires are lighted, but the light of the first torch is not lessened by the kindling of many torches, so the Word, coming forth from the Word-Power of the Father, has not divested of the Word-Power Him who begat Him.

Human reasoning perhaps, but food for thought, as they wrote around the year 150 A.D which was quite a bit before Nicene. Although such reasoning could also have helped the resulting creeds later on, they appear to support the idea that the Word sprang forth from God as the first of the Father's works.

Scripture is the sure way to know if this is the case, but scripture is also sparse on the origins of the Word. Perhaps in the next age we will know that which scripture doesn't cover to any great detail.

[Author]

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