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Hi,
Just put this together it covers what I believe is the difference between adopted Sons of God and the eternal Son of God.What does it mean for us to be made a Son of God….
1Co 2:9 But as it is written, EYE HATH NOT SEEN, NOR EAR HEARD, NEITHER HAVE ENTERED INTO THE HEART OF MAN, THE THINGS WHICH GOD HATH PREPARED FOR THEM THAT LOVE HIM.
2Co 6:18 And I will receive you. And will be a Father to you: AND YOU SHALL BE MY SONS AND DAUGHTERS, SAITH THE LORD ALMIGHTY.
Here is where things start to get interesting…
2Pe 1:3 ACCORDING AS HIS DIVINE POWER HATH GIVEN UNTO US ALL THINGS that pertain unto life AND GODLINESS, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are GIVEN UNTO US EXCEEDING GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: that by these ye might be PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
His Divine Nature, the Greek word is phusis foo'-sis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: – ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:”For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
This is why Jesus calls them gods, because this is why he came to make us gods.
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, UNTO WHOM THE WORD OF GOD CAME, and the SCRIPTURE CANNOT BE BROKEN;
Joh 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?Those that are called gods are ALL Sons of the most high.
Psa 82:6 I have said: You are gods and ALL OF YOU THE SONS OF THE MOST HIGH.
How do we become Sons of God to partake in his divine nature?
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, HE GAVE THEM POWER TO BE MADE the sons of God, TO THEM THAT BELIEVE IN HIS NAME.
Joh 1:13 Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.The Son who is God became flesh so we would become gods
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth.
So I believe those that Love the Father and do his will become Sons of God, so there are many gods even on Earth.
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, WHETHER IN HEAVEN OR IN EARTH, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
Look at the revelation of the other gods they are either manmade or self proclaimed, here are just some of these so called gods.
Lev 19:4 Turn ye not unto idols, NOR MAKE TO YOURSELVES MOLTEN GODS: I am the LORD your God.
Exo 20:23 Ye shall not make with me GODS OF SILVER, neither shall ye make unto you GODS OF GOLD.Exo 23:32 Thou shalt make NO COVENANT WITH THEM, NOR WITH THEIR GODS.
Exo 23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: FOR IF THOU SERVE THEIR GODS, IT WILL SURELY BE A SNARE UNTO THEE.Do we dare to be asked to become a god without the only true Son of God?
Exo 32:22 And Aaron said, LET NOT THE ANGER OF MY LORD WAX HOT: THOU KNOWEST THE PEOPLE, THAT THEY ARE SET ON MISCHIEF.
Exo 32:23 For they said unto me, MAKE US GODS, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.Exo 23:13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Jos 23:7 That ye come not among these nations, these that remain among you; NEITHER MAKE MENTION OF THE NAME OF THEIR GODS, nor cause to swear by them, neither serve them, nor bow yourselves unto them:
Jer 16:20 SHALL A MAN MAKE GODS UNTO HIMSELF, AND THEY ARE NO GODS?
None of them are really Gods only the Sons of the Most High become gods.
So to become a Son of God, does this make us equal to Jesus? NO SHOW! because we only become like him by nature not essence, he is Creator and Saviour.
Instead we become equal unto the angels. We are created as Sons of God…. the true begotten Son is the Word of God he is eternally Son.Luk 20:35 BUT THEY WHICH SHALL BE ACCOUNTED WORTHY TO OBTAIN THAT WORLD, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are EQUAL UNTO THE ANGELS; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.But the eternal Son of God is begotten not made, the family is eternal and as the Father is a perfect Father, the Son is the perfect image of his Father.
How can the Son not be equal to the Father if he is eternally a perfect Father? No issues regarding authority as the perfect eternal Son would be obedient to his Father.
Look at the Light that Jesus has compared to the light adopted Sons of God will have.Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: FOR HE IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the Blessed and only Mighty, THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS:
1Ti 6:16 WHO ONLY hath immortality and inhabiteth LIGHT INACCESSIBLE: whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and EMPIRE EVERLASTING. Amen.As the Son is the perfect image of the Father, no man would be able to look upon him without HIM first emptying himself to take on flesh.
I am amazed that Humans are given the choice to receive the grace to be adopted INTO THE LIGHT and become equal unto the least of the angels in heaven.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet TO BE PARTAKERS OF THE INHERITANCE of the SAINTS IN LIGHT:
Praise God!!!!! What a blessing to be brought, sealed and delivered into the Family of God…
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him…….Praise God
I believe the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are one God as a family not solitude they alone inhabit inaccessible light and are alone are Creator and Saviour, please test this for yourself in the scriptures found latter where God says “I am God, I am alone and there is no one beside me”.
Anyway once we are accepted into the kingdom as Sons of God and no longer be Sons of Man because flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God….will Jesus still be our God?
If so what about 1 Corinthians 15:5
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.First, I believe the Father is head of the Family, So is head over the Godship.
Second, I don’t believe the Son’s subjection to his Father makes him any less God as the Son remains God in essence and substance.
Thirdly, I believe the above subject in 1Co 15:28 is clearly talking of Jesus as the Last Adam as the Son of Man.
Remember currently Jesus is the Son of Man, the role as messiah the Christ! But at the sam
e time he is the Son of God, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. He is eternally the Son of God and changes not “as this is who he is”.
But is there any need for Jesus to remain as the Son of Man “the gate” when those who he has allowed to enter through become Sons of God.When we examine “1Corinthians Chapter 15”.we will see the subjection is spoken of as the Son of Man.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, BY MAN came also the resurrection of the dead.
Jesus is referred to as Man, the last Adam
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Again “the self humbled one” the Son of Man the Last Adam
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; THE LAST ADAM was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: THE SECOND MAN IS THE LORD FROM HEAVEN.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.Sons of Man won’t inherit the kingdom, only Sons of God will.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, BUT WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED.So I believe it is fair to say that Jesus is clearly revealed in Chapter 15 as the Last Adam the Son of Man. When Jesus has chosen his brothers and made them Sons of God he will then retire from his role as the gate the Son of Man!
Jesus WILL NOT change as the Son of God, ALL things are made by him and FOR HIM, he is appointed heir of all things.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Heb 1:2 In these days, hath spoken to us by his Son, WHOM HE HATH APPOINTED HEIR OF ALL THINGS, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLD.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory and the figure of his substance and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high:Rev 4:11 THOU ART WORTHY, O LORD, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast CREATED ALL THINGS, AND FOR THY PLEASURE THEY ARE AND WERE CREATED.
His empire is everlasting.
1Ti 6:16 WHO ONLY hath immortality and inhabiteth light inaccessible: whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and EMPIRE EVERLASTING. Amen.
His kingdom has no end…..it is for ever and ever!
Heb 1:8 But to the Son: Thy throne, O GOD, is FOR EVER AND EVER: a sceptre of justice is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved justice and hated iniquity: THEREFORE GOD (Son), thy God (Father), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.We will be equal to the angels and as the angels worship Jesus even when he was brought into the world as the Son of Man why shouldn’t we.
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God WORSHIP [proskuneō] him.
The Father NEVER EVER teachers that his Son should not be worshiped, instead he commands it.
The Son who is the PERFECT teacher never teachers he should not be worshiped. This is because he does not seek his own glory but seeks to glorify his Father.Joh 5:31 IF I BEAR WITNESS OF MYSELF, MY WITNESS IS NOT TRUE.
Yet the ANGELS REFUSE WORSHIP (Rev 19:10 and 22:8-9). PETER REFUSES WORSHIP (Acts 10:25-26), AS DO PAUL AND BARNABAS (Acts 14:11-15) } Remember on comparison the Angels and the Disciples are hardly worshipped and each time it is tried it is ALWAYS DENIED……
Those who do not worship Jesus…. this should raise some very serious alarms. I believe its kind of like saying that the Father is not a perfect eternal Father because his Son is not worthy of our worship.
Humans cannot look into the hearts of man and of course not into the heart of Jesus. But we are told that when we look at Jesus in the flesh we see the Father.
Is it not fair to assume what we do to the Son we do to the Father?Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 THAT ALL MEN SHOULD HONOUR THE SON, EVEN AS THEY HONOUR THE FATHER. HE THAT HONOURETH NOT THE SON HONOURETH NOT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT HIM.Jesus is worshiped proskuneō meaning to prostrate oneself in worship and meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand. No to mention all the times people fall at his feet and even as dead. Here are just some examples.
Mat 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and WORSHIPPED [PROSKUNEŌ] HIM.
Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Luk 24:52 And they WORSHIPPED [PROSKUNEŌ] HIM, and returned to Jerusalem WITH GREAT JOY:Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I FELL AT HIS FEET AS DEAD. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, FEAR NOT; I AM THE FIRST AND THE LAST:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH.These are just some of the examples, not only are Jesus feet washed with tears but look what the greatest man ever to be created from the dust say about him..
Mat 11:11 Amen I say to you, THERE HATH NOT RISEN AMONG THEM THAT ARE BORN OF WOMEN A GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST: yet he that is the lesser in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, WHOSE SHOES I AM NOT WORTHY TO BEAR: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Oh how much less am I worthy than John the Baptist! I will be just happy to look at his face.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST.
Anyway WHAT does Jesus continually teach after giving the GREAT commandments of Love.
Mat 22:38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
Mat 22:42 Saying: What think you of Christ? Whose son is he? They say to him: David's.
Mat 22:43 He saith to them: How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying:
Mat 22:45 If David THEN CALL HIM LORD, HOW IS HE HIS SON?And again….
Mar 12:33 And that he should be loved with the whole heart and with the whole understanding and with the whole soul and with the whole strength. And to love one's neighbour as one's self is a greater thing than all holocausts and sacrifices.
Mar 12:35 And JESUS ANSWERING, SAID, teaching in the temple: How do the scribes say that Christ is the son of David?That’s two out of three times
Is there something Jesus is trying to say, remember he said if here bear witness of himself his witness is not true…..
The third time Jesus gives us the teaching on who is our neighbor is to clarify this part of the commandment of Love.
Luk
10:27 He answering, said: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with all thy strength and with all thy mind: and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:30 And JESUS ANSWERING, SAID: A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho and fell among robbers, who also stripped him and having wounded him went away, leaving him half dead.So when I read John 17:3…. I remember Jesus become part of his creation so we could be part of the created family he made in heaven…I then understand that Jesus does not bear witness of himself, but he always leaves the answer one or two verses after so the Holy Spirit will then glorify him.
Joh 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus CHRIST, whom thou hast sent.
Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, GLORIFY THOU ME WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.On top of that Jesus also said that he was IN the Father and after quoting a revelation from that is applied to God alone in the Old Testament then said the Father and I are one.
They are indeed one as a family in unity of substance. They are one God [eternal family] Creator and Saviour.Otherwise God would have to be lairing with the following scriptures…please read them slowly.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD THY REDEEMER, and THY MAKER, FROM THE WOMB: I AM THE LORD, THAT MAKE ALL THINGS, that ALONE STRETCH OUT THE HEAVENS, that established the earth, AND THERE IS NONE WITH ME.
How can argue against the word of God?
And again…..
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD THAT CREATED THE HEAVENS; GOD HIMSELF THAT FORMED THE EARTH AND MADE IT; HE HATH ESTABLISHED IT, HE CREATED IT NOT IN VAIN, HE FORMED IT TO BE INHABITED: I AM THE LORD; AND THERE IS NONE ELSE.
Job 9:7 Who commandeth the sun, and it riseth not: and shutteth up the stars, as it were, under a seal:
Job 9:8 WHO ALONE SPREADETH OUT THE HEAVENS, AND WALKETH UPON THE WAVES OF THE SEAHere are just some examples of the only begotten and not made Son who is the creator.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him: AND WITHOUT HIM WAS MADE NOTHING THAT WAS MADE.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved justice and hated iniquity: THEREFORE GOD (Son), thy God (Father), hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 AND: THOU IN THE BEGINNING, O LORD, DIDST FOUND THE EARTH: AND THE WORKS OF THY HANDS ARE THE HEAVENS.This is why John 1:1 reads as follows…..
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God [log'-os]: and the Word was God [log'-os].
If that’s not enough…….
Here is the unity in essence as one Saviour.. take the time to read these.Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.
And again….
Hos 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: FOR THERE IS NO SAVIOUR BESIDE ME.
What is the Father trying to imply? What is revealed?
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of GOD OUR SAVIOUR;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the LORD JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR.There are many examples to show this, but would anyone dare to say that Jesus Christ is not there Saviour?
So I believe the Creator and the Saviour this is the Unity that the Word, Spirit and Father has with one another. Jesus tells us that HE and the Father are one this comes from the revelation of Deu 32:39 Isa 43:13
Isa 43:13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND: I WILL WORK, AND WHO SHALL LET IT?
Here we go again.
Deu 32:39 See ye that I ALONE AM, and THERE IS NO OTHER God besides me: I will kill and I will make to live: I will strike, and I will heal, AND THERE IS NONE THAT CAN DELIVER OUT OF MY HAND.
Deu 32:40 I will lift up my hand to heaven, AND I WILL SAY: I LIVE FOR EVER.SEE YE THAT I AM ALONE….
Joh 10:25 JESUS ANSWERED THEM, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, THEY BEAR WITNESS OF ME.
Indeed his works bear witness…
Joh 10:28 [Jesus speaking] And I GIVE THEM LIFE EVERLASTING: and they shall not perish for ever. AND NO MAN SHALL PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND.
Joh 10:29 That which my Father hath given me is greater than all: and NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF THE HAND OF MY FATHER.
Joh 10:30 I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.
The eternal family is indeed one.
Love and Blessing’s in the Name of Jesus.
Scripture Seeker, I agree with a lot of your points, but the Trinity teachings you slipped in I cannot go with. I am not sure why people want to slant the scriptures that way. We should let scripture speak for itself, should we not?
The true way to understand Christ being one with God is to understand how a woman and man can be one, how the Church can be one, and how we can be one with God and his Christ. It is about intimate relationship.
Thx
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.John 10:27-36
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken–
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?Jesus was accused of claiming to be God, but he defended this accusation by saying that he was the son of God, and that we are gods (sons) too. Perhaps (as you say) in reference to the divine nature (nature of God) that we are destined to partake of.
Partaking of God's nature doesn't make anyone the Most High God. The Most High God doesn't partake in the nature because it is his nature.
Hi,
Mk 3.34
“Looking about at those sitting around him, he said
'Behold my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of God, he is my brother and sister and mother'”Such is the family of God.
Hi SS,.
Here is Ps 82“1God takes His (A)stand in His own congregation;
He (B)judges in the midst of the ©rulers.
2How long will you (D)judge unjustly
And (E)show partiality to the wicked? Selah.
3(F)Vindicate the weak and fatherless;
Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.
4(G)Rescue the weak and needy;
Deliver them out of the hand of the wicked.
5They (H)do not know nor do they understand;
They (I)walk about in darkness;
All the (J)foundations of the earth are shaken.
6I (K)said, “You are gods,
And all of you are (L)sons of the Most High.
7″Nevertheless (M)you will die like men
And fall like any (N)one of the princes.”
8(O)Arise, O God, (P)judge the earth!
For it is You who (Q)possesses all the nations”Jesus quoted it to show that men, judges, were called “gods”.
So to relate this verse to the new sons of God in Christ is not appropriate is it?
hi ss,
“First, I believe the Father is head of the Family, So is head over the Godship.”So you are not maintaining the view of God as a trinity of three equal persons?
Now there is a family trinity with a many gods and the Father is the greatest God among the many?
Then you fall back on claiming hidden equality of the the Son, and yet grant such equality to no others?
And I suppose you will tell us this is unrelated to the polytheism you say you abhor?
Is the Son of God really a son of God or is it only a title?
If it is only a title then how can we claim to be any form of a son in him?Hi ss,
“Instead we become equal unto the angels”Surely you know that Christ is above the angels?
In him we are also above the angel who are servants to the sons of God?[Heb 1.14]
We are in Christ at the right hand of glory.[Coll 3.1]
We will even judge angels![1Cor 6.3]Quote (t8 @ July 09 2006,07:11) Scripture Seeker, I agree with a lot of your points, but the Trinity teachings you slipped in I cannot go with. I am not sure why people want to slant the scriptures that way. We should let scripture speak for itself, should we not? The true way to understand Christ being one with God is to understand how a woman and man can be one, how the Church can be one, and how we can be one with God and his Christ. It is about intimate relationship.
Thx
John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.John 10:27-36
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one.
31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any of these,” replied the Jews, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.“
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods'?
35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken–
36 what about the one whom the Father set ; Apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, `I am God's Son'?Jesus was accused of claiming to be God, but he defended this accusation by saying that he was the son of God, and that we are gods (sons) too. Perhaps (as you say) in reference to the divine nature (nature of God) that we are destined to partake of.
Partaking of God's nature doesn't make anyone the Most High God. The Most High God doesn't partake in the nature because it is his nature.
Hi T8,
You as well as many others have forced me to learnt so much here its amazing…..Thanks heapsOne important thing I have learnt is there are a few different variations on the Trinity.
I originally had a twisted view of what the Trinity really meant and was. I now understand it in very simple terms and it makes sense to me.Thanks for your reply, you provide great examples to test what I believe is the pillar and ground of truth and you are bearing full weights of truth, that I am being forced to stack upon it.
Looking at 1Co 11:3
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.Indeed you are correct.
But I always have to look “before the fall” and after the “restoration from the fall” to see what’s going on.Looking at Man and Women.
Before the fall, Man and Women where equal
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; AND THY DESIRE SHALL BE TO THY HUSBAND, AND HE SHALL RULE OVER THEE.It wasn’t until after the Women lead the Man into Sin that God made the Man the head of the Family.
Restoration after the fall, man and women will again be equal.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, THERE IS NEITHER MALE NOR FEMALE: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.Notice also in Gen 3:16 it says that Husband will be head over there Wife it does not mention all men being head over all women. So I believe Men are only head of there own Wife’s and not other Women.
When we are made Sons and Daughters of God this will no longer matter.
Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, NEITHER MARRY, NOR ARE GIVEN IN MARRIAGE:
Now looking at Jesus I believe the Jews wanted to kill him not because he claimed to be God, but because he claimed to be the Son of God. Jesus was revealing himself as God in an eternal family and as the Jews understood the equal and value of this, especially after Jesus broke the law of the Sabbath as if it was his own.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, MY FATHER WORKETH HITHERTO, AND I WORK.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, MAKING HIMSELF EQUAL with God.240 Jesus revealed that God is Father IN AN UNHEARD-OF SENSE: He is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: “No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”; as “the image of the invisible God”; as the “radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature”.There are many examples given for Jesus as the Christ/ Messiah “the Son of Man”…. I need to always look at Jesus as the glory he shares with his Father. If I don’t do this, sometimes I will even question basic pre existence questions.
I believe Jesus will retire from the role as the Last Adam and lamb after he has taken away the sin of the world. But as he changes not he will always remain as the Alpha and Omega as the eternal Son of God.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Rev 1:8 I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE ENDING, SAITH THE LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith THE FIRST AND THE LAST, which WAS DEAD, AND IS ALIVE;
Rev 22:13 I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST.
Look at the revelations from the Old Testament
Isa 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, AND WITH the last; I am he.I don’t believe the above “and with” is a translation error because below we would have another one. I believe the word of God declares the Son in the New Testament and then he reveals him in the Old Testament with direct statements and sometimes uses plural to singular examples to express a Father and Son relation.
What one is the Father and what one is the Son below…..
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [YAHWEH] the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the LORD [YAHWEH] of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
Isa 44:7 AND WHO, AS I, SHALL CALL, AND SHALL DECLARE IT, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isa 44:8 FEAR YE NOT, NEITHER BE AFRAID: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? YEA, THERE IS NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.Love and Blessing in the Name of Jesus.
Hi ss,
The woman was given to Adam as a helpmate.[Gen 2.20]
Adam was rebuked because he had preferred his helpers' teaching to his God's.[Gen 3.17]
You say:
“Looking at 1Co 11:3
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”Who is this God who is greater than Jesus?
Is Jesus not part of a trinity God?
Or is this one of those scriptures where you read 'Father” for God?
Why not do it all the time?
That is the truth.Hi SS,
In the Old Testament one term that refers absolutely to God Himself[The Father] is THE LORD OF HOSTS. God is the one in ultimate charge of all of the Hosts of heavenly beings. It is one of the most common references to Father God occurring hundreds of times.1Cor 8.
“For us there is
One God, the Father…
and
One Lord, Jesus Christ..”You say
” Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [YAHWEH] the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the LORD [YAHWEH] of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
Isa 44:7 AND WHO, AS I, SHALL CALL, AND SHALL DECLARE IT, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto
Isa 44:8 FEAR YE NOT, NEITHER BE AFRAID: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? YEA, THERE IS NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY”The Lord of hosts, the King of Israel, the Redeemer [of the servants-his redeemer]apply only to Father God. From His point of view there are no other comparable gods.
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your reply, but that particular comment was related directly to the First and the Last. Anyway Jesus is also the King of Israel. Would you believe that Jesus is also called YAHWEH if I can provide direct statements for the Old Testament to the New to show he is also the Lord of Hosts?
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, THOU ART THE SON OF GOD; THOU ART THE KING OF ISRAEL.
Again here are just two direct statements regarding the First and the Last….
Rev 2:8 And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith THE FIRST AND THE LAST, WHICH WAS DEAD, AND IS ALIVE;
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD [YAHWEH] the King of Israel, AND HIS redeemer the LORD [YAHWEH] of hosts; I AM THE FIRST, AND I AM THE LAST; and BESIDE ME THERE IS NO GOD.
Isa 44:7 AND WHO, AS I, SHALL CALL, AND SHALL DECLARE IT, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isa 44:8 FEAR YE NOT, NEITHER BE AFRAID: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. IS THERE A GOD BESIDE ME? YEA, THERE IS NO GOD; I KNOW NOT ANY.Looking at the one Lord and one God
1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
If you keep reading 1Corinthians you will see the diversities of operations you quote above, now is the Holy Spirit one God? If so why does your logic not apply here?
1Co 12:13 For by ONE SPIRIT ARE WE ALL BAPTIZED into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by ONE SPIRIT unto the Father.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, AND ONE SPIRIT, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Spirit
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of graces, but the SAME SPIRIT.Lord
1Co 12:5 And there are diversities of ministries. but the SAME LORD.God
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but the SAME GOD, who worketh all in all.The more you study the Holy Spirit the more you will see you have to reject him as the one true God if you reject Jesus as the one true God. Where the Father sends his word he always sends his breath.
The word “Spirit” translates the Hebrew word ruah, which in its primary sense means breath, air, wind.
Spirit rûach roo'-akh From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath.Psa 33:6 BY THE WORD of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them BY THE BREATH OF HIS MOUTH.
Col 1:16 For by him WERE ALL THINGS CREATED, that ARE IN HEAVEN, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
You cannot separate the Father from the Son just as you can’t separate the Word and the Breath contained within it.
Joh 20:21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
Joh 20:22 When he had said this, HE BREATHED ON THEM; and he said to them: RECEIVE YE THE HOLY GHOST.
Joh 20:23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.The Son has came and revealed God as an eternal family. How else would God say “he is alone”, “there is no other”, “no one beside him” “nor will there be any other”.
The Father and Son and Holy Spirit are all Lord and God not one in solitude but as an eternal family, they alone hath immortality and inhabit light inaccessible. They are each referred to Lord and God and Spirit.
Joh 15:26 But when the PARACLETE cometh, whom I WILL SEND you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.
Joh 14:26 But the PARACLETE, THE HOLY GHOST, whom the FATHER WILL SEND in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
Gal 4:6 And because YE ARE SONS, God hath sent forth the SPIRIT OF HIS SON into your hearts, CRYING, ABBA, FATHER.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the SPIRIT OF GOD, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, WHEREBY WE CRY, ABBA, FATHER.2Co 3:17 Now the LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
So let’s not try and confuse things with one Lord one God scripture because this is revealed as diversities of operations and not essence and substance. Unless you want to seperate the one Spirit from the one God?
Scripture can easily reveal each of the following…
The Spirit is Lord the Spirit is God.
The Lord is Spirit he is God.
God is Spirit he is Lord.….we need to look at it basically there is an eternal Father there is an eternal Son and there is an eternal relationship of spirit and love. Like an eternal Child a Husband and Wife would bear in complete love and unity one for one another. The Spirit IS that love and love needs a relationship and this love is eternal and is sent into our hearts crying abba Father.
Joh 20:27 Then he said to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and SAID TO HIM: My Lord AND MY GOD.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.Nick some of your questions can be answered if you take the time to read the two previous posts I have already given on this subject.
Not sure if you are aware but due to family commitments and full time work some days I don’t even get the chance to read the posts let alone pray about them and test them against scripture. So, if I don’t reply straight away, never take offense….
Peace and Blessings in the name of Jesus.
Hi SS,
Does it surprise you that the Spirit of God is one with God? It should not as God is Spirit and the Spirit is of God. To blaspheme and lie to the Spirit is to blaspheme and lie to God. Should 'the Finger of God' not be part of God?Do you believe the Son of God truly is a Son, separate from his Father? It should not as that is what he said about himself. If they are eternally one in retrospect then he is not and never was a Son.
Does it surprise you that the Son is shown in similar ways to the Father that he is now united with, Who gave him complete authority to work and act and forgive sin? It should not because that is what is written about them and their relationship in scripture. He had just spoken of their unity and how seeing him also allowed them to see God and Thomas understood that teaching. Do you?
The One God lives in the Son and so do we.
We share in the Spirit of God from the Son from God.The Father is the First and Last- period.
The Son is the first and last of the works of God.Does similarity show sameness?
No.
Hi SS:
Thanks for your posts. Interesting that you should say:
“One important thing I have learnt is there are a few different variations on the Trinity.”
That in and of itself ought to make you take a step back and look at the thing more objectively.
I am encouraged by your post because I see in it, one who is beginning to question and reach beyond the boundaries drawn by the Nicean Council. I see questions and your attempts to answer them scripturally. The puzzle pieces appear to be the right shapes but when you put them down, they are just shy of clicking into place and seem to give the idea that they are the right ones but that the manufacturer's template might have a little glitch in it to put it a little off.
The Trinity has major glitches because it was not created by the Manufacturer, so does not fit his template. So you can toss the glitchy piece aside until you have a large pile, or you can try to force it in until you have something that appears to hold together but doesn't and the picture at the end is out of wack, and not what God intended, or you can exchange that package offered through the wisdom of men for the authentic one given us in the bible.
We are all learning but I promise you that when you come to see that the Father alone is the God and Father of all, the pieces of your puzzle will fall into place without being forced, the picture that unfolds would bear a resemblance to what scripture intends and you would know beyond any shadow of doubt that you've got the gospel as God intended you to have it, because it would also enable you to recognize Jesus Christ as God has intended.
Here is an example, this time, from Acts 3. It could have been taken from just about any part of Acts. I read it recently and was refreshed anew:
Without further ado, let's listen to the gospel once again being proclaimed by the Apostle Peter to a crowd which has gathered at Solomon's Porch to marvel at what God had done, when he raised the lame man who had been crippled from birth (who daily begged for alms at the Temple Gate Beautiful), in the name of Jesus. The Apostles Peter and John are together. This is what they preached! These are the authentic gospel/puzzle pieces!
Act 3:12 So when Peter saw it, he responded to the people: “Men of Israel, why do you marvel at this? Or why look so intently at us, as though by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk?
Act 3:13 “The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go.
Act 3:14 “But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you,
Act 3:15 “and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 “And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Act 3:17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.
Act 3:18 “But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
Act 3:19 “Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord,
Act 3:20 “and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,*
Act 3:21 “whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
Act 3:22 “For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
Act 3:23 'And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'*
Act 3:24 “Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold* these days.
Act 3:25 “You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, 'And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'*
Act 3:26 “To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”Hi cubes,
Beautiful.
Peter immediately disclaims any responsibility for the miracle which is ascribed to God, done through faith in the name of Jesus. Peter reminds them that they have seen but not recognised this unique prophet who despite them even killing him has been raised and works of power are happening in his name. Yes God is given full credit for everything and this is the plan of God, that they unwittingly helped fulfill. God promised another like Moses and salvation is through him alone.Jesus is presented as
a promised prophet,
a servant of God,
the Messiah or Christ,
the Prince of Life.Jesus remains in heaven till the final days but Peter tells them that if they repent and obey God, He will forgive them and refresh them and send them Jesus as Spirit that they may make each help to up his body on earth
Quote (Scripture Seeker @ July 09 2006,07:21) But the eternal Son of God is begotten not made, the family is eternal and as the Father is a perfect Father, the Son is the perfect image of his Father.
How can the Son not be equal to the Father if he is eternally a perfect Father? No issues regarding authority as the perfect eternal Son would be obedient to his Father.
Look at the Light that Jesus has compared to the light adopted Sons of God will have.Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: FOR HE IS LORD OF LORDS, AND KING OF KINGS: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the Blessed and only Mighty, THE KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS:
1Ti 6:16 WHO ONLY hath immortality and inhabiteth LIGHT INACCESSIBLE: whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and EMPIRE EVERLASTING. Amen.As the Son is the perfect image of the Father, no man would be able to look upon him without HIM first emptying himself to take on flesh.
I am amazed that Humans are given the choice to receive the grace to be adopted INTO THE LIGHT and become equal unto the least of the angels in heaven.
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet TO BE PARTAKERS OF THE INHERITANCE of the SAINTS IN LIGHT:
Praise God!!!!! What a blessing to be brought, sealed and delivered into the Family of God…
Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him…….Praise God
Hi SS:Amen. It is amazing indeed that God has so blessed us to be partakers of such inheritance!
I must say though that 1 Tim 6:15-16 speaks of the Father as king of kings…dwelling in inaccessible light.
It is the Father who is Father of Light. Jesus is the Light of the world and so are we, after his kind. We receive this light through Christ from the Father.
When you speak of Jesus being perfect after the Father, well, we are all born of the same spirit if indeed the Spirit of God is in us. What makes Jesus different is that the Father says he is different and has set him apart and as head. God said it and it is established and we acknowledge and rejoice in the truth.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 11 2006,03:51) Hi cubes,
Beautiful.
Peter immediately disclaims any responsibility for the miracle which is ascribed to God, done through faith in the name of Jesus. Peter reminds them that they have seen but not recognised this unique prophet who despite them even killing him has been raised and works of power are happening in his name. Yes God is given full credit for everything and this is the plan of God, that they unwittingly helped fulfill. God promised another like Moses and salvation is through him alone.Jesus is presented as
a promised prophet,
a servant of God,
the Messiah or Christ,
the Prince of Life.Jesus remains in heaven till the final days but Peter tells them that if they repent and obey God, He will forgive them and refresh them and send them Jesus as Spirit that they may make each help to up his body on earth
Hi Nick,Ironically, the Apostle Peter and the Vatican Papacy and/or Nicean Council couldn't be more in disagreement over this topic of who is God. The Apostle Peter says the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ is God. They say differently!
Hi SS,
You say
“So let’s not try and confuse things with one Lord one God scripture because this is revealed as diversities of operations and not essence and substance. Unless you want to seperate the one Spirit from the one God?”To separate the
Spirit of God from our
Father God as another
person in God
is to do exactly as you warn us against here.By diversity of operations do you suggest there is an order in the trinity you perceive that goes against the persons having true equality?
Or do you accept a dual form trinity-economic and ?
It does get a little complex and claiming “mystery mystery” to explain these vast holes in doctrine sounds more like “mystery babylon” to me.
The Vatican says that Peter is the head of the Church.
But it was really Constantine who was their head and first leader.Revelation 2:13
I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.Is the above verse Rome? Does anyone know?
Hi ss,
You say;
“The more you study the Holy Spirit the more you will see you have to reject him as the one true God if you reject Jesus as the one true God. Where the Father sends his word he always sends his breath.The word “Spirit” translates the Hebrew word ruah, which in its primary sense means breath, air, wind.
Spirit rûach roo'-akh From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath. “I agree God is never separated from his own Spirit and to insult the Spirit is to insult God.
He just eternally shares that Spirit with all He wants to commune with.
Does not scripture say Jesus was filled with the Spirit?
Does this mean he was filled with himself??God blew his breath in man to give life to the dust. [Gen 2.7]
Do you think God gave Adam the Holy Spirit?
God is Spirit. Does this mean God is breath to you?
The Spirit of God behaves like the wind as Jn 3 tells us but if men are already of that breath or wind how can we be further blessed by receiving of that Spirit?Quote (t8 @ July 11 2006,04:25) The Vatican says that Peter is the head of the Church.
But it was really Constantine who was their head and first leader.Revelation 2:13
I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.Is the above verse Rome? Does anyone know?
Hmm, beats me, t8. All I know is that the Vatican preaches another God besides the one Christ and Peter did. It's just remarkable to find all of Peter's sermons in Acts, as well as those by Paul, refute all claims to a Trinity.
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