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Hi Ken
You say
“The seeds of the Spirit are sown in ALL the hearts of men. Some hearts are cold and hard and so reject the Spirit. “
When is this event?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 15 2008,13:24) Hi Ken
You say
“The seeds of the Spirit are sown in ALL the hearts of men. Some hearts are cold and hard and so reject the Spirit. “
When is this event?
The gospel will be Preached in all the world then the world will end!Hi SOL,
We were warned to expect demonic doctrines like gnosticism.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 21 2008,08:08) Hi SOL,
We were warned to expect demonic doctrines like gnosticism.
1 Timothy 4:1
But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
Well since gnosticism preceeds orthodoxy.I find this to be turning the evidence on its head.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 20 2008,15:36) Hi SOL,
Gnosticism diverts from truth adding esoteric doctrines of demons.
Can you provide evidence of your accusations?Hi KJ,
Try this from the meta religion site
“Gnosis refers to a knowledge that is essential to free oneself from the evil material world and bodily existence (Crim: 277). Gnostics believe humans err because they are ignorant, unlike the Christian belief that man is sinful by nature. Gnostics will receive salvation when they gain knowledge, gnosis. The knowledge must be of their inner self or soul. It is similar to the Hindu definition of meditation (Borce).Some of the basic beliefs of Gnosticism are as follows:
“Between this world and the God incomprehensible to our thought, the 'primal cause,' there is an irreconcilable antagonism.
The 'self,' the 'I' of the gnostic, his 'spirit' or soul, is unalterably divine.
This 'I,' however, has fallen into this world, has been imprisoned and anaesthetized by it, and cannot free itself from it.
Only a divine 'call' from the world of light loosens the bonds of captivity.
But only at the end of the world does the divine element in a man return again to its home.”(Foerster: 9) Another unique aspect of the Gnostic belief system is their view of the creation of the world. They believe that the true God has a feminine side, Sophia, the Spirit part of God. Jesus was a product of God and Spirit, and joined them to make up the Trinity. Sophia wanted to give birth to a being like herself. She proceeded without permission from God. The result was imperfect and she was ashamed of it, so she hid it in a cloud away from the other immortals. The child was the Demiurge. He was born with some power (from the Spirit) and used it to create the physical world. This trapped the “spirit in matter”(Borce). The view of the imperfections of creation are similar to those in Hebrew scripture, just as the Creator is incompetent (McManners: 27). The Gnostics taught that the Demiurge was Yehovah from the Old Testament. Jesus, on the other hand, they believe came from God and the Holy Spirit, not from the Demiurge. Jesus taught Gnostics the secret knowledge (gnosis), which he did not teach to the church. This belief created animosity between the church and the Gnostics. Also, contrary to Christian teachings about Jesus being born of the virgin Mary, Gnostics believe that Jesus entered Mary's body via sexual intercourse between Mary and Joseph (Borce).
Gnostics had several other beliefs that dismayed early Christians. They scorned bishops, priests and deacons, however, they let women hold leadership and liturgical positions (McManners: 28). Many Gnostics would not make the sign of the cross, because to them the “suffering of Jesus was no actual event but a symbol for the universal condition of the human race.”(McManners: 28) Christ could not have become flesh in order to be crucified, since they believe that there is a separation of spirit from matter. They view flesh as polluting (McManners: 27). This belief would also support why they do not put faith in the eucharist, which is supposed to be the body of Christ. Mani, the leader of the Manicheaists, also did not believe in the drinking of wine, the blood of Christ, because he saw it as an invention of the devil. Many Gnostics also do not recognize the significance of baptism in water (McManners: 27). They also believe they are the elect group that will gain salvation, via gnosis, and everyone else will be annihilated. “Moral virtue was of little interest to Gnostics, whose confidence in their own salvation made all that seem a matter of indifference.”(McManners: 28)
Gnostics also have a different view of the make up of the world. Aeons are worlds, or “distinct spiritual entities,” which all together make up the pleroma, or fullness (Foerster: 24). The pleroma is above the cosmos and is the “spiritual Divine Reality,” the true God's realm (Gnosticism). This is the place a Gnostic hopes to return to through salvation.
Hi,
So gnosticism is an ancient humanistic religion that can appear in the guise of Christianity adopting some of the truth.Hi,
1 Tim 6
20O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”–21which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith Grace be with you.”
I am beginning to realise the huge impact the false knowledge of gnosticism has made in corrupting the beliefs of the Church. Even the JW doctrines, with their fanciful extrapolations from single verses, are a type of this evil.
Hi,
This very early heresy with reliance on KNOWLEDGE from outside of scripture continues to plague the church.1 Timothy 6:20
O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge”–Hi DK,
I copied your post from another thread to here.
“Trinity is the only Gnostic concept to have ever remained and taken root in mainstream Christian thinking. The word does not exist in the accepted books of the current New Testament. It is something alluded to in concept by the reiteration of the 2nd and 3rd century AD Catholic formula: “Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” This is found, amazingly, in the end of Matthew where Jesus gives them his final instruction before ascending into heaven, and, lo and behold, the latter day Catholic benediction follows (Matthew 28): “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”However, in the book of Acts of the Apostles, penned by Luke who was an actual eyewitness to the early events of the Apostolic Age, the Apostles only baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:38) “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” This is true also of Paul, who in his epistles makes no references to the concept of trinity. These are just a couple of examples of where actual application in the apostolic age shows that a supposed earlier (from their point of view) instruction (such as in Matthew 28) did not occur.
The introductions and benedictions of the letters of Ignatius (circa 107 AD) and Polycarp (circa 130 AD) maintain the same formula as in all apostolic New Testament letters except inverting the precedence, now with Jesus Christ coming first instead of God the Father. This noteworthy change helps textual and Biblical students to date certain New Testament era writings, plus New Testament apocryphal writings. There is still no such mention of the “Holy Ghost” in any of the benedictions and salutations. Jews never regarded God’s own spirit as a separate entity. Just when that little ditty was added to Matthew no one knows, but it had to be toward the latter part of the 2nd century, if not later.
As the church became an almost wholly Gentile institution there were clear problems encountered between the Jewish origin of the religion and the Greek Gnostic rationalizing that was entering the church. Many Greeks could not believe that corrupt flesh could be one with the Spirit of God, and therefore they rationalized a whole slough of ideas to make the Messiah conform to their Greek background and prejudices. Docetism was born to show Jesus was not born. Then there was Valentinus who even saw fit by esoteric means to describe Jesus’ pure digestive system. Fragment E of the Epistle to Agathapous reads: “He was continent, enduring all things. Jesus digested divinity; he ate and drank in a special way, without excreting his solids. He had such a great capacity for continence that the nourishment within him was not corrupted, for he did not experience corruption.”
Already by the time of Cerinthus (circa late 1st century) there was an ongoing attempt to rationalize the divinity of Jesus, especially in light of the firm scriptural stance on “One God.” Coupled with Greek Stoic and Gnostic contempt for the flesh, several peculiar divisions between God and Jesus were proposed.
One was from the Naassene Gnostics who thrived during the time of Trajan and Hadrian. They clearly possessed the Gospel of John, which in its early days was first used exclusively by Gnostics because it was so Gnostic, often engaging, oratorical, and mystically Greek. Hippolytus describes their unusual views of a Triethism— the earliest term discovered referring to a Trinity.
It is Christian counter-philosophy to explain to Greeks the actual unity of God while at the same time trumping Cerinthian Gnosticism, and explaining why Jesus is God but that he is also Jesus. It may not be accurate, and should not be regarded as holy oracle, but it was explaining to Greeks the things of Hebrew writings they never had and Hebrew prophecy they had no cultural way of understanding. This must be remembered at all times by Jews and modern Christians— Gentiles back then had little knowledge of Scripture or Hebrew culture. They would naturally try and rationalize what they were being told. That neither makes their rationalizations heresy or the counter explanations by the church holy writ. Church leaders were trying to put Judaism and Christianity into Greek thought.
This, however, opens the door on the problem today: that Jews are told that Trinity is holy oracle when it is not. It was passing counter philosophy to stop the separation that Gnostics were proposing. The Gnostics themselves were grappling with trying to understand how Jesus can be God if there is but one God. The omnipresence and omnipotence of God was not understood.
The excessive overkill to link God to Jesus as the Christ, while yet not being able to explain how they are still separate, eventually had the Spirit added to it. The concept of Trinity was eventually ingrained until it became an article of faith, though it is proclaimed to be a mystery how God can be one but there are three entities to him. Many examples are used, like an egg or an apple; but none of those preachers trying to rationalize it know they are close to Naassene rationalizations for a Triethism. It is incomprehensible because it is irrational and opposed to the word of God. God is one and unique.
The sad result of not remaining firmly based in Scripture was to create a Trinity, 3 in one, working in tandem. There were many examples of this in Roman religion, such as the Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. Trinity is a less “Gnostic” Naassene Tritheism, one meant in all good Christian Greek philosophizing to destroy it and show that all things are represented by the Christian trinity that is united in Christ. However laudable and understandable it was back then, it clung to a church that outlived the Gnostics, outlived Greek philosophy, and outlived the concept of gods being represented in varied forms to express incarnations of their various attributes. It is simply time that the church realizes it must outlive some of its counter rationalizing and realize it must stop calling some of this holy word. “
Hi,
Gnosticism seems too be still alive and well.
Men are still coming up with ideas from outside of scripture and adding them in saying they are truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 20 2008,13:50) Hi DK,
I copied your post from another thread to here.
“Trinity is the only Gnostic concept to have ever remained and taken root in mainstream Christian thinking. The word does not exist in the accepted books of the current New Testament. It is something alluded to in concept by the reiteration of the 2nd and 3rd century AD Catholic formula: “Father, Son and Holy Ghost.” This is found, amazingly, in the end of Matthew where Jesus gives them his final instruction before ascending into heaven, and, lo and behold, the latter day Catholic benediction follows (Matthew 28): “And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”However, in the book of Acts of the Apostles, penned by Luke who was an actual eyewitness to the early events of the Apostolic Age, the Apostles only baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 2:38) “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” This is true also of Paul, who in his epistles makes no references to the concept of trinity. These are just a couple of examples of where actual application in the apostolic age shows that a supposed earlier (from their point of view) instruction (such as in Matthew 28) did not occur.
The introductions and benedictions of the letters of Ignatius (circa 107 AD) and Polycarp (circa 130 AD) maintain the same formula as in all apostolic New Testament letters except inverting the precedence, now with Jesus Christ coming first instead of God the Father. This noteworthy change helps textual and Biblical students to date certain New Testament era writings, plus New Testament apocryphal writings. There is still no such mention of the “Holy Ghost” in any of the benedictions and salutations. Jews never regarded God’s own spirit as a separate entity. Just when that little ditty was added to Matthew no one knows, but it had to be toward the latter part of the 2nd century, if not later.
As the church became an almost wholly Gentile institution there were clear problems encountered between the Jewish origin of the religion and the Greek Gnostic rationalizing that was entering the church. Many Greeks could not believe that corrupt flesh could be one with the Spirit of God, and therefore they rationalized a whole slough of ideas to make the Messiah conform to their Greek background and prejudices. Docetism was born to show Jesus was not born. Then there was Valentinus who even saw fit by esoteric means to describe Jesus’ pure digestive system. Fragment E of the Epistle to Agathapous reads: “He was continent, enduring all things. Jesus digested divinity; he ate and drank in a special way, without excreting his solids. He had such a great capacity for continence that the nourishment within him was not corrupted, for he did not experience corruption.”
Already by the time of Cerinthus (circa late 1st century) there was an ongoing attempt to rationalize the divinity of Jesus, especially in light of the firm scriptural stance on “One God.” Coupled with Greek Stoic and Gnostic contempt for the flesh, several peculiar divisions between God and Jesus were proposed.
One was from the Naassene Gnostics who thrived during the time of Trajan and Hadrian. They clearly possessed the Gospel of John, which in its early days was first used exclusively by Gnostics because it was so Gnostic, often engaging, oratorical, and mystically Greek. Hippolytus describes their unusual views of a Triethism— the earliest term discovered referring to a Trinity.
It is Christian counter-philosophy to explain to Greeks the actual unity of God while at the same time trumping Cerinthian Gnosticism, and explaining why Jesus is God but that he is also Jesus. It may not be accurate, and should not be regarded as holy oracle, but it was explaining to Greeks the things of Hebrew writings they never had and Hebrew prophecy they had no cultural way of understanding. This must be remembered at all times by Jews and modern Christians— Gentiles back then had little knowledge of Scripture or Hebrew culture. They would naturally try and rationalize what they were being told. That neither makes their rationalizations heresy or the counter explanations by the church holy writ. Church leaders were trying to put Judaism and Christianity into Greek thought.
This, however, opens the door on the problem today: that Jews are told that Trinity is holy oracle when it is not. It was passing counter philosophy to stop the separation that Gnostics were proposing. The Gnostics themselves were grappling with trying to understand how Jesus can be God if there is but one God. The omnipresence and omnipotence of God was not understood.
The excessive overkill to link God to Jesus as the Christ, while yet not being able to explain how they are still separate, eventually had the Spirit added to it. The concept of Trinity was eventually ingrained until it became an article of faith, though it is proclaimed to be a mystery how God can be one but there are three entities to him. Many examples are used, like an egg or an apple; but none of those preachers trying to rationalize it know they are close to Naassene rationalizations for a Triethism. It is incomprehensible because it is irrational and opposed to the word of God. God is one and unique.
The sad result of not remaining firmly based in Scripture was to create a Trinity, 3 in one, working in tandem. There were many examples of this in Roman religion, such as the Capitoline Triad of Jupiter, Juno and Minerva. Trinity is a less “Gnostic” Naassene Tritheism, one meant in all good Christian Greek philosophizing to destroy it and show that all things are represented by the Christian trinity that is united in Christ. However laudable and understandable it was back then, it clung to a church that outlived the Gnostics, outlived Greek philosophy, and outlived the concept of gods being represented in varied forms to express incarnations of their various attributes. It is simply time that the church realizes it must outlive some of its counter rationalizing and realize it must stop calling some of this holy word. “
NHIsa 1:18 had already called DK out for his plagerism in quoting this source without giving the source credit.
Not to mention that he cut and past bits and pieces of the article that suited him.
In fact he left this part out, emphasis mine….
On the whole, most scholars agree today that the following books are penned in response to Gnosticism: Ephesians, 2 Thessalonions, 2 Peter, Gospel of John, 1, 2 & 3 of John, Book of Revelation, plus elements within the Pastoral letters of Timothy and Titus, all of which are not regarded as genuinely apostolic anymore— and except for Ephesians and 2 Thessalonians all were at one point disputed as being inauthentic even by the ancients. All of the works of John are certain, since even the ancients maintained that John wrote these in response to Cerinthus’ Gnosticism at Ephesus.
John the presbyter was really in the hotbed of Gnosticism, being at Ephesus where the Nicolaitans and Cerinthus were starting their philosophizing. Instead of simply denouncing it, he must have seen that many Greeks were drawn to it. He was so Hellenized himself that he sought to christianize Gnosticism’s wilder philosophies rather than simply to denounce them entirely. An early reflection of Gnostic Logos being Christ’s spir
it can be seen in the book of Ephesians, penned possibly 15 or 20 years prior to John’s books. This can be seen in Ephesians not by overt statements but by the clear christianizing (by unifying) of Gnostic principles of separate entities. A clear differentiation is always made between God and Jesus Christ while at the same time trying to link them in a duel way. In Ephesians there is found the comment “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.” The last comment is more than a slight nod to the Logos concept of Jesus as the express image of God’s creative self and power. This is more bluntly stated in John’s prologue in his gospel.So tell me NH would you propagate the teachings of someone who regarded the scriptures as such?
WJ
Hi TaA,
Trinity belief is not taught in the bible.
So the basis of belief in it falls in the gnostic realm-
things taken to be true by some but not actually taught in the bible.Hi,
Since this heresy is based on what men think they KNOW from outside of scripture
I would say it is still a rampant issue as men speculate and infer.
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