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My married name is also German (a very common German name I'm told – kind of like “Smith” in the states). I went from a very easy to pronounce maiden name to a married name I always have to spell out for everyone. UGH.
Greetings,
Since others here have shared something of themselves, in the interest of fraternity I will do likewise. I am on the cusp of my 50s, divorced once and a single father for many years. I remarried a couple of years ago to a remarkable, young woman and now have 2 girls (baby and preschooler) to go along with my teenage son. I also keep in contact with two stepdaughters both, in their early 30s, from my first marriage (I had them in their teen age years). My education is broad, having formal degrees in engineering, national security/military science, education, and engineering administration. Religiously my parents took us to Lutheran and Presbytarian churches. As a child I hated church as I thought their teachings nonsense and I was never into the social aspects of church. In my preteens I tended to see things like Stuart does now. As a teenager I had an epiphany and found belief in the Almighty through solitary contemplation, though still kept my discomforture of churches. While I believe in God, and Jesus as a redeemer and master, I have a more esoteric view of Christianity. I have looked at occult teachings, alchemy, theosophy, Kabbalah, eastern philosophy, Jungian psychology, etc., and have developed a broad view of the cosmos that changes as I learn more in this life. I have had personal revelations and have bore witness to supernatural events so I know the power of good and evil, and that there is also grey, just as in the material world. I feel no creed has a monopoly on truth and most religions have their exoteric and esoteric forms. Mainstream Christian doctrine, is in my opinion, oversimplified to the point of becoming outdated as man continues to advance in knowledge and education. In summary to quote the Bard, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” I am still learning.Cato! Thank you so very much for sharing with us. Very interesting to learn from others about their background. Just is to show you that God calles us out of all walks of life. We all have comtributed to the Family of God.
Preace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 13 2008,02:48) Greetings,
Since others here have shared something of themselves, in the interest of fraternity I will do likewise. I am on the cusp of my 50s, divorced once and a single father for many years. I remarried a couple of years ago to a remarkable, young woman and now have 2 girls (baby and preschooler) to go along with my teenage son. I also keep in contact with two stepdaughters both, in their early 30s, from my first marriage (I had them in their teen age years). My education is broad, having formal degrees in engineering, national security/military science, education, and engineering administration. Religiously my parents took us to Lutheran and Presbytarian churches. As a child I hated church as I thought their teachings nonsense and I was never into the social aspects of church. In my preteens I tended to see things like Stuart does now. As a teenager I had an epiphany and found belief in the Almighty through solitary contemplation, though still kept my discomforture of churches. While I believe in God, and Jesus as a redeemer and master, I have a more esoteric view of Christianity. I have looked at occult teachings, alchemy, theosophy, Kabbalah, eastern philosophy, Jungian psychology, etc., and have developed a broad view of the cosmos that changes as I learn more in this life. I have had personal revelations and have bore witness to supernatural events so I know the power of good and evil, and that there is also grey, just as in the material world. I feel no creed has a monopoly on truth and most religions have their exoteric and esoteric forms. Mainstream Christian doctrine, is in my opinion, oversimplified to the point of becoming outdated as man continues to advance in knowledge and education. In summary to quote the Bard, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” I am still learning.
Hi CatoI appreciate the candour of your post and you have obviously satified your curiosity on a range of belief fronts.
You write that you witnessed 'supernatural event'. How exactly is that possible? If you witness something surely by definition it must be part of the natural world?
You say that in your preteens you saw things the way I do now. Does that mean you had moral arguments for believing christianity to be unethical as I do, and if so how did you overcome those reasoned views?
Stuart
Hello Stuart,
To answer your questions:
I did go through in my late childhood, an athiest phase, stemming from my reaction to the incredulous stories I was told in Lutheran confirmation classes that I just could not accept. I also looked at with disdain, my peers in these classes who I viewed as weak in will and intellectual capacity. So it led me to the idea that the whole idea of religion was a joke, it was for the weak. I was very arrogant back then and life had yet to teach me humility. But it was a belief that religion and so by association, God, was ridiculous. I am sorry to use your name but it was associative and not pejorative.I changed this view during solitary contemplation, and came to the conclusion that the idea of God was not foolish but, rather it made sense. I was evolving into a deist and the best description I can give for what I felt then was as described in Paine's Age of Reason, “creation is the Bible of the deist. He there reads, in the hand-writing of the Creator himself, the certainty of his existence, and the immutability of his power; and all other Bibles and Testaments are to him forgeries. The probability that we may be called to account hereafter, will, to reflecting minds, have the influence of belief; for it is not our belief or disbelief that can make or unmake the fact. As this is the state we are in, and which it is proper we should be in, as free agents, it is the fool only, and not the philosopher, nor even the prudent man, that will live as if there were no God.”
As for the supernatural, perhaps I should say paranormal instead? I could write a whole book on what I have witnessed. I don't usually go in to what I have seen as I wouldn't believe my own story if heard from someone else. Suffice to say it concerned apparitions and even what would commonly be called possesion. Perhaps there were “natural” causes, but I could find none and what tests I was able to run during the times I came across same, I could only conclude that there were unexplained forces at work. Despite my skeptical nature, I concluded that what I had seen and witnessed was outside of what is considered explainable through normal phenomenon. These then precipitated research and interest by me in the occult and paranormal. I found, at least in my opinion, it is not all smoke and mirrors or self-hypnosis and suggestion. During this time of continuing study I contemplated Jesus and came to the conclusion that he was a great redeemer and master, though I have no true inkling of his exact nature. I know he himself never claimed godhood nor do I view him as such, but I do revere him as a great master of and model for humanity. I consider myself Christian, in the same sense as Thomas Jefferson did, a follower of Jesus' teachings. I know I have left much unanswered and I can not provide data but I hope this answers most of your questions.
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 15 2008,02:32) Hello Stuart, To answer your questions:
I did go through in my late childhood, an athiest phase, stemming from my reaction to the incredulous stories I was told in Lutheran confirmation classes that I just could not accept. I also looked at with disdain, my peers in these classes who I viewed as weak in will and intellectual capacity. So it led me to the idea that the whole idea of religion was a joke, it was for the weak. I was very arrogant back then and life had yet to teach me humility. But it was a belief that religion and so by association, God, was ridiculous. I am sorry to use your name but it was associative and not pejorative.I changed this view during solitary contemplation, and came to the conclusion that the idea of God was not foolish but, rather it made sense. I was evolving into a deist and the best description I can give for what I felt then was as described in Paine's Age of Reason, “creation is the Bible of the deist. He there reads, in the hand-writing of the Creator himself, the certainty of his existence, and the immutability of his power; and all other Bibles and Testaments are to him forgeries. The probability that we may be called to account hereafter, will, to reflecting minds, have the influence of belief; for it is not our belief or disbelief that can make or unmake the fact. As this is the state we are in, and which it is proper we should be in, as free agents, it is the fool only, and not the philosopher, nor even the prudent man, that will live as if there were no God.”
As for the supernatural, perhaps I should say paranormal instead? I could write a whole book on what I have witnessed. I don't usually go in to what I have seen as I wouldn't believe my own story if heard from someone else. Suffice to say it concerned apparitions and even what would commonly be called possesion. Perhaps there were “natural” causes, but I could find none and what tests I was able to run during the times I came across same, I could only conclude that there were unexplained forces at work. Despite my skeptical nature, I concluded that what I had seen and witnessed was outside of what is considered explainable through normal phenomenon. These then precipitated research and interest by me in the occult and paranormal. I found, at least in my opinion, it is not all smoke and mirrors or self-hypnosis and suggestion. During this time of continuing study I contemplated Jesus and came to the conclusion that he was a great redeemer and master, though I have no true inkling of his exact nature. I know he himself never claimed godhood nor do I view him as such, but I do revere him as a great master of and model for humanity. I consider myself Christian, in the same sense as Thomas Jefferson did, a follower of Jesus' teachings. I know I have left much unanswered and I can not provide data but I hope this answers most of your questions.
Hope you dont mind if I say something here. Good post and I know what you are talking about, I too experienced similar to what you did. I was in the Catholic Church all my Life until I was 46 and my Husband was 47. We had never read the Bible before and when we did, God opened our eyes big times. One night I was praying and it was like there were two Spirits. I never addresses God as the God of the Universe, but that night I did, and something amazing happened. One ugly Spirit left and God and Jesus stayed. We were Baptized according to scripture and We have been learning a lot since then. That is now 22 years ago. I am forever thankful to God for calling us out the world.
I cant wait for the world tomorrow.Peace and Love Mrs.
Cato and seek and you will find , you have each had an experience that was inexplicable and you have then made a causal link to the Judeo-christian god. My further question to each of you is how do you know that it is that god and not another one that is signifying its presence to you? After all if you had been born in India it is much more likely you would be attributing the inexplicable to Shiva or one of that lot of gods.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:25) Cato and seek and you will find , you have each had an experience that was inexplicable and you have then made a causal link to the Judeo-christian god. My further question to each of you is how do you know that it is that god and not another one that is signifying its presence to you? After all if you had been born in India it is much more likely you would be attributing the inexplicable to Shiva or one of that lot of gods. Stuart
Stu But we were not born in India are we not the lucky ones. Even if we would there are Christians in India are there not?Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,18:30) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:25) Cato and seek and you will find , you have each had an experience that was inexplicable and you have then made a causal link to the Judeo-christian god. My further question to each of you is how do you know that it is that god and not another one that is signifying its presence to you? After all if you had been born in India it is much more likely you would be attributing the inexplicable to Shiva or one of that lot of gods. Stuart
Stu But we were not born in India are we not the lucky ones. Even if we would there are Christians in India are there not?Peace and Love Mrs.
Why is it lucky that you were not born in India?Stuart
Stu I was born in Germany unlucky me. But I am here in the U.S.A. now and very happy to be here and I am an American Citizen for over 50 years now. Born into the Catholic CHURCH. Fortunetely We were called out of that system and now under Christ Jesus Blood of the new Covenant. I know you do not belief in any of this, and that is sad. So have a good life, one day you will bow your knee to our Savior Jesus Christ too. Until then Goodbye.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 16 2008,09:18) Stu I was born in Germany unlucky me. But I am here in the U.S.A. now and very happy to be here and I am an American Citizen for over 50 years now. Born into the Catholic CHURCH. Fortunetely We were called out of that system and now under Christ Jesus Blood of the new Covenant. I know you do not belief in any of this, and that is sad. So have a good life, one day you will bow your knee to our Savior Jesus Christ too. Until then Goodbye. Peace and Love Mrs.
hi seek and you will findThanks for your reply.
I suppose there were bad times to be a German citizen in the 20th Century.
I will not be bowing down to anyone, just as I would not expect anyone to bow down to me (Matthew 7:16).
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:25) Cato and seek and you will find , you have each had an experience that was inexplicable and you have then made a causal link to the Judeo-christian god. My further question to each of you is how do you know that it is that god and not another one that is signifying its presence to you? After all if you had been born in India it is much more likely you would be attributing the inexplicable to Shiva or one of that lot of gods. Stuart
Stuart,You have a point, however I don't feel any of the Hindu deities match up to my view of a supreme unmanifest creator. Though I must admit that my identification with what I view God as the Judeo-Christian God may be prejudice from my upbringing. I do have many problems with how the OT describes God (see my thread in the questions section). Though other sources seem to describe the God of Jesus as more in the line as I see him.
Jesus is and will always be the Savior that died for me and is sitting on the right hand of our Heavenly Father on His throne. He will come again to reign a thousand years as King of King and Lords of Lords. All will be judged and finally we will have Peace and Love forever more. Amen
Peace and Love Mrs.
Hi Cato and seek and you will find
Jesus is not the messiah for most of the population of the world. What is your attitude to them? Are they all (4 billion of them) condemned? What if you're wrong and you are in the condemned 4 billion?
If there is nothing wrong with choosing a different system of deities, then what is special about christianity?Stuart
Quote (Cato @ Mar. 17 2008,06:06) Stuart, You have a point, however I don't feel any of the Hindu deities match up to my view of a supreme unmanifest creator. Though I must admit that my identification with what I view God as the Judeo-Christian God may be prejudice from my upbringing. I do have many problems with how the OT describes God (see my thread in the questions section). Though other sources seem to describe the God of Jesus as more in the line as I see him.
“my view” and “as I see Him” is really applicable for all people.No Nick, you do not understand. Each person has his/her own view of God. Some use the bible to describe Him, some use another religious text. But even when people use the same book, they form their own view beyond that. I think you know that.
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