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The purpose of studying these three scriptures is to discover what scripture actually states about angels entering heaven.
Genesis 28:10-13(NIV)reads:
Quote Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it. There above it stood the LORD, and he said: “I am the LORD, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying.
Some points from Genesis 28:10-13.
Point 1: This is a dream from God.
Point 2: Angels ascend and descend from heaven on a stairway.
Point 3: God stands above the stairway.
John 1:46-50(NIV) reads:
Quote “Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked.
“Come and see,” said Philip.
When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, “Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit.”
“How do you know me?” Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, “I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you.”
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”
Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You will see greater things than that.” He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
Some points from John 1:46-50.
Point 1: Nathan believes because Jesus stated he saw Nathan under a fig tree.
Point 2: Jesus prophesizes that Nathan will see thing greater than what brought his to believe Jesus is the Anointed.
Point 3: He then stated Nathan would see the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man as an example of what he meant.
Judges 13:2-21(NIV) reads:
Quote A certain man of Zorah, named Manoah, from the clan of the Danites, had a wife who was childless, unable to give birth. The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, “You are barren and childless, but you are going to become pregnant and give birth to a son. Now see to it that you drink no wine or other fermented drink and that you do not eat anything unclean. You will become pregnant and have a son whose head is never to be touched by a razor because the boy is to be a Nazirite, dedicated to God from the womb. He will take the lead in delivering Israel from the hands of the Philistines.”
Then the woman went to her husband and told him, “A man of God came to me. He looked like an angel of God, very awesome. I didn’t ask him where he came from, and he didn’t tell me his name. But he said to me, ‘You will become pregnant and have a son. Now then, drink no wine or other fermented drink and do not eat anything unclean, because the boy will be a Nazirite of God from the womb until the day of his death.’”
Then Manoah prayed to the LORD: “Pardon your servant, Lord. I beg you to let the man of God you sent to us come again to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.”
God heard Manoah, and the angel of God came again to the woman while she was out in the field; but her husband Manoah was not with her. The woman hurried to tell her husband, “He’s here! The man who appeared to me the other day!”
Manoah got up and followed his wife. When he came to the man, he said, “Are you the man who talked to my wife?”
“I am,” he said.So Manoah asked him, “When your words are fulfilled, what is to be the rule that governs the boy’s life and work?”
The angel of the LORD answered, “Your wife must do all that I have told her. She must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, nor drink any wine or other fermented drink nor eat anything unclean. She must do everything I have commanded her.”
Manoah said to the angel of the LORD, “We would like you to stay until we prepare a young goat for you.”
The angel of the LORD replied, “Even though you detain me, I will not eat any of your food. But if you prepare a burnt offering, offer it to the LORD.” (Manoah did not realize that it was the angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah inquired of the angel of the LORD, “What is your name, so that we may honor you when your word comes true?”
He replied, “Why do you ask my name? It is beyond understanding.” Then Manoah took a young goat, together with the grain offering, and sacrificed it on a rock to the LORD. And the LORD did an amazing thing while Manoah and his wife watched: As the flame blazed up from the altar toward heaven, the angel of the LORD ascended in the flame. Seeing this, Manoah and his wife fell with their faces to the ground. When the angel of the LORD did not show himself again to Manoah and his wife, Manoah realized that it was the angel of the LORD.
Some points from Judges 13:2-21.
Point 1: The couple believed the angel was a human that looked like an angel and not a man of God.
Point 2: The angel stated his name was unspeakable.
Point 3: The angel was treated as God by this scripture in what he said and did.
Point 4: The angel astonished the couple by ascending to heaven in fire.
Point 5: The couple expected to see him after he ascended if he was human.
Point 6: The angel declined to eat.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 10 2011,02:46) Pierre, It appears that one must literally ascend to enter heaven.
Kerwinyou mean if you are in the basement ,if you want to go out you have to come up ??
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 09 2011,19:16) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 10 2011,02:46) Pierre, It appears that one must literally ascend to enter heaven.
Kerwinyou mean if you are in the basement ,if you want to go out you have to come up ??
Pierre
That is correct.Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2011,19:46) Pierre, It appears that one must literally ascend to enter heaven.
Where in the Bible do you read that any one, human, will go to heaven?Georg
Quote (Baker @ Jan. 11 2011,14:39) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2011,19:46) Pierre, It appears that one must literally ascend to enter heaven.
Where in the Bible do you read that any one, human, will go to heaven?Georg
Georg,I assume you mean besides Jesus.
2 Kings 2:1(NIV) reads:
Quote When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 11 2011,21:20) Quote (Baker @ Jan. 11 2011,14:39) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 09 2011,19:46) Pierre, It appears that one must literally ascend to enter heaven.
Where in the Bible do you read that any one, human, will go to heaven?Georg
Georg,I assume you mean besides Jesus.
2 Kings 2:1(NIV) reads:
Quote When the LORD was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
No, not besides Jesus, Jesus came from heaven.Hbr 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hbr 11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
See what Paul said about all the holy man, and woman of the Bible? but then notice what he said happened to them.
Hbr 11:13 ¶ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Georg
Georg,
Have you considered the possibility that God is speaking broadly in Hebrews 11:13 and thus it was stated without regard to the exception of Enoch. If you consider that possibility then you should also consider how Adam’s family line is written in Genesis 5:1-32. In that scripture you will note that from the Adam to Lamech, with one exception, it is written that each patriarch lived a total of x years, and then he died. The one exception being Enoch about whom it states “Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.”
You state that Jesus came from heaven and that is true because the Spirit of God the dwells in him came from heaven. I do not see how that negates that he, a human being, ascended to heaven.
kerwin
Why is Jesus called “the Son of God”?
What is the definition of SON? answer; the son receives “”life”” from the Father.
Definition of Father; he who “”gives”” life to the son.
Do you have children? did “you” not give “life” to them? that is why they call you their “father”.
In regard to Heb. 11, no their is no exception.Act 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is “”no respecter of persons””:
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Why does it say, Enoch “lived” 365 years?
Was Enoch without sin? Paul says this.Rom 3:23 For “”all”” have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
So how did Enoch have his sins forgiven?
Paul also said this.Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
There is only ONE reason why people “ASSUME” Jesus was “bodily” resurrected, because his body was not found. There is no scripture to back up a bodily resurrection!
You're forgetting that Paul said, “flesh and blood” can “NOT” inherit the kingdom of God.Don't just fly over these scriptures, meditate on them, think what they say, they are God's words.
Georg
George,
A son of god is a son of God’s Spirit as God is spirit, John 1:12-13, Romans 8:15, and Ephesians 1:5. We who have sinned are adopted as, and so are indirectly, sons by receiving and living by the Spirit after believing all of Jesus’ teachings on how to do so. Jesus is The Son by being given the Spirit of God before he sinned which is his direct relationship to God.
The Spirit, which is from God, gives life and so your argument is also correct in that the Father gives life, the Spirit, to his Son. God also gives life to us indirectly as he gives us life through Jesus.
You ask was Enoch without sin but that is not the correct question to ask to find out if he will not die, Ezekiel 18:20, as you should instead ask was Enoch credited with righteousness by God. Scripture testifies that Enoch walked with God and so he like Abraham and Phinehas are credited with righteousness for their belief, Psalms 106:30-31 and Genesis 15:6.
Enoch was merely one of a few examples of things to come. He like the other Patriarchs, Prophets, and God’s people of those times was made whole though his faith and thus through us for we demonstrate that those who have faith are made whole through the Anointed.
The evidence that Jesus was bodily resurrected is that he gave many convincing proofs that he is alive, Acts 1:3. That is not saying he was resurrected into the same type of body. I am convinced his body was transformed in his tomb and the transforming, which was done by the spirit of God, returned him to life.
Enoch lived 365 years and then he left this earth, i.e. was not. Scripture does not state he died. As I stated before he is one of the few exceptions to the broad statement that all men are appointed to die and then be judged. His judgment came first and God decided that Enoch would not die but would instead enter the kingdom of heaven. That is God’s prerogative.
References:
John 1:12-13(NIV) reads:
Quote
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.Romans 8:15(NIV) reads:
Quote The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.”
Ephesians 1:5(NIV) reads:
Quote he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Ezekiel 18:20(NIV) reads:
Quote The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
Psalms 106:30-31(NIV) reads:
Quote But Phinehas stood up and intervened,
and the plague was checked.
This was credited to him as righteousness
for endless generations to come.Genesis 15:6(NIV) reads:
Quote Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.
Acts 1:3(NIV) reads:
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.
kerwin
Do you “really” want to understand truth? than you first have to go away from your believes that you have now.
Jesus said, you can't put new wine, new truth, into old wine bottles, old doctrines.
As long as you “try” to make scripture match your believes, you wont learn the truth.
Did Paul say, “all” have sinned, or not?
Did Paul say,1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam “”all die””, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
or not?
Did Jesus die for all mankind, or not?
Is God a respecter of person, or not?
By what name “must” we, meaning “all”, be saved?Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is “”none other name”” under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Is that name “Jesus”, or not?
Answer me this, what “was” Jesus before he became man?
Why does it say, Enoch “lived” 365 years?As long as you're not clear about these scriptures, there really is no point in going on with this.
Georg
Georg,
It was not a new doctrine Jesus preached but it is a new covenant. The wine is the Spirit of God as counselor. Jeremiah testifies of it in chapter 31 of the book named after him as the Spirit writes the law on the hearts and mind of those who believe.
Jesus did die for mankind since it is only through his death that the Spirit of God is able to come and live in us as the Holy Counselor.
There is always sense in the student studying what he does not yet understand for in that way he learns.
I agree that even though Enoch inherited heaven before Christ was conceived, much less died, he still was made perfect together with the disciples of Christ as it is written:
Hebrews 11:39-40(NIV) reads:
Quote These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
kerwin
If God writes anything on your heart, how will you be able to read it? at best it's a figure of speech.
No, what Jesus gave was a comparison, you can't put “new” wine into old wine-skins, the new wine would burst the old skins. The Jews had been taught by Moses to observe the “Law”, OLD wine-skins; now Jesus comes along and tells every body, the law saves no one, rather faith in him will save you, that was the “new” wine, new truth. In order to understand the “new” truth, you have to let go of the “old”.
I don't know of a scripture were wine has been compared to God's Holy Spirit.Well, again, what YOU believe about Enoch is up to you, but it is not scriptural correct.
You even quoted the scripture that tell you, they would not be made “perfect” before the apostles, and saints; and when will they be made “perfect”? answer; in the FIRST resurrection.Btw, show me a scripture that says any one will go to heaven.?
You did not tell me what you think Jesus was “before” he became a human.By not believing the SCRIPTURES I show you, you're not hurting my feelings, I did not write them.
Georg
Georg,
I do not read what is written on my heart, emotional center, and on my mind, mental center, but I do live them. In the case of the first God creates in me a pure heart, Psalms 51:10, and a steadfast and willingly obedient mind, Isaiah 26:3 and 1 Chronicles 28:9.
The spirit accomplishes what the human nature of the people of God could not even after commanded them to do so, Deuteronomy 11:18. That is why God foretold that he would make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
References
Psalm 51:10(NIV) reads:
Quote Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Isaiah 26:3(NIV) reads:
Quote You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you.
1 Chronicles 28:9(NIV) reads:
Quote “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Deuteronomy 11:18(NIV) reads:
Quote Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 15 2011,22:06) Georg, I do not read what is written on my heart, emotional center, and on my mind, mental center, but I do live them. In the case of the first God creates in me a pure heart, Psalms 51:10, and a steadfast and willingly obedient mind, Isaiah 26:3 and 1 Chronicles 28:9.
The spirit accomplishes what the human nature of the people of God could not even after commanded them to do so, Deuteronomy 11:18. That is why God foretold that he would make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah.
References
Psalm 51:10(NIV) reads:
Quote Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Isaiah 26:3(NIV) reads:
Quote You will keep in perfect peace those whose minds are steadfast, because they trust in you.
1 Chronicles 28:9(NIV) reads:
Quote “And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Deuteronomy 11:18(NIV) reads:
Quote Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.
“”AGAIN””, you have “”AVOIDED”” my questions!Georg
Georg,
The only question I did not answer that you asked is what I believe Jesus was before he became human. He was a plan within the mind of God that came to be when he was conceived in his mother's womb.
I felt I had that point clear in other cases but perhaps you were not aware of those other posts. Sorry if I offended you by the action driven by that thought. I will try to remember the lesson. Please be patient as sometimes it takes a number of lessons for me to retain the information.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 18 2011,15:23) Georg, The only question I did not answer that you asked is what I believe Jesus was before he became human. He was a plan within the mind of God that came to be when he was conceived in his mother's womb.
I felt I had that point clear in other cases but perhaps you were not aware of those other posts. Sorry if I offended you by the action driven by that thought. I will try to remember the lesson. Please be patient as sometimes it takes a number of lessons for me to retain the information.
kerwinI was not offended, I just wanted to know what you believe.
How do you explain these scriptures?Rev 3:14 ¶ And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “”beginning”” of the creation of God;
How can he be the “BEGINNING” of God's creation, if he had come into being when he was born a man?
Col 1:16 For “”by him”” were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
For “by him”, Jesus, or “through him”, God created all things.
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, “”who created all things by Jesus Christ””:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the “”Lamb slain”” from the “”foundation of the world””.
Would you agree that the “LAMB” is Jesus?
He was “slain”, meaning, he knew from before the creation that he would have to die “FOR” his creation one day; where, in God's mind, in God's plan?There are more scriptures I could bring up for you, but if these are not convincing, it is not that you can't understand what is written, it is because “YOU DON'T WANT TO UNDERSTAND”.
In which case it it pointless to even respond to you from here on.Georg
George,
I have come to understand that Jesus is the Amen, the fulfillment of the Law, the new creation of God because all was created anew in him, and for him, and by him. I also believe that God foreknew before the old creation that Jesus would become the mediator of the new covenant by his sinless life, his self sacrifice even to the point of death, his resurrection because he did not deserve death, his ascension as God was pleased to appoint him King of everything for his act of mercy.
You even attest, by quoting Revelations 13:8, that Jesus was not slain from the foundation of the old perishable earth as he was slain about 20 Centuries ago. He was slain from the foundation of the new imperishable earth which were set when he was crucified on the cross.
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