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Are you completely incapable of having a “normal” conversation?
* normal meaning we take turns saying things and we respond.
Right now you are acting as though I am ignoring you, but we all know I asked you something you don't want to answer and are now trying to take the conversation elsewhere. We all know there are 4 threads on that subject, and I've told you just before that I didn't want to discuss this here, but in the appropriate place. So what you're doing almost seems childish to me, and possibly others.david
Quote Posted: Nov. 03 2006,06:40 EDIT QUOTE
Quote
“There are archangels. . .These are fact.”
–Nick.Nick, considering how often you tell me to not go beyond what you think is written you seem to sometimes do the same. You state that it is a fact that there “are archanges,” in plural. Which scripture speaks of more than one “chief angel.”
(I don't mean nor want nor will pursue speaking about Michael the archangel here.)
I only wish to point out that you often accuse me of reasoning from the scriptures and believing things are explicitely stated word for word, yet you state as fact what the Bible nowhere says. Archangel nowhere appears in plural.Hi david,
Let me help you from Daniel.
Michael is a prince.
He is one of the chief princes.
He is the prince over the Jewish people.
The question was not about Messiah who is the prince of princes.Let me help you. This is not one of the 4 Michael the archangel threads.
let me help you further. My comment to you had nothing to do with Michael.
Let me help you further. Your attempt to shift the conversation is futile.I realize it stings when we find we have been doing something that we constantly accuse others of.
Hi david,
Michael is the only prince who is also called an archangel in the bible. That makes no statement that he is the only archangel. Neither does it prove that whenever an archangel is mentioned in the bible it must be Michael. Those are unsupported presumptuous speculations… but then JWs are famous for such presumptions.Quote Michael is the only prince who is also called an archangel in the bible. That makes no statement that he is the only archangel. Neither does it prove that whenever an archangel is mentioned in the bible it must be Michael. Those are unsupported presumptuous speculations… but then JWs are famous for such presumptions. Which one of us has made a presumtion:
You wrote:
“There are archangels [in plural]. . .These are fact.”
Certainly not a Bible based fact however.Nick, you're trying to turn this on me and bring up the same thing you always do. The thing you repeatedly have said to me you've said above:
“Those are unsupported presumptuous speculations.”
Yet, without considering your own words to me, or ignoring them for your own beliefs, you say: “There are archangels…these are fact.”You could follow your own advice from time to time. Perhaps you have been making these speculations all along and didn't realize it.
That's ok. We all make mistakes.
Hi david,
The point I make is that archangels are scriptural. Scripture never says there is only one archangel but JWs make that assumption.Jude
” 9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. “It does not say he is the only archangel or that there is only one chief angel. So if he is described as a prince too and one of the chief princes then I think scripture favours there being more than one prince or archangel.
I agree that it does not state either that there are more than one archangel but it does seem likely if they are also known as princes.
Thinking out loud w/ some speculations:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Nothing here indicates that Elohiym (GOD) is plural or a “pluralistic being” in nature.There are many beginnings: this points specifically to the creation of the heavens and the earth. Question: does this heaven comprise of all stated heavens (even his dwelling place) or just the universe where NASA and other scientists seek to explore? I speculate that GOD would have had to be already residing somewhere while starting this project, no?
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
The spirit of God moved. Again, this does not necessarily denote another person/being. We could just as easily reason that the hand of God moved, or the eye or breath of God moved… and it would be understood to have been the same PERSON moving his limb, blowing a bubble or moving his eye.Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Two possibilities:
1. Perhaps he just spoke into space and things appeared.
OR
2. He commanded/spoke and other beings carried out his wishes.He said, let there be light if you would, and a bunch of electricians did what had to be done and there was light.
This, I now acknowledge, may well be the first indication of other presence BESIDES God. We do not know who they are, what kinds of beings they are, how many of them there are. We understand more clearly as we read through the rest of scripture.Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
If the Father spoke things into appearance, then he surveyed his own wishes and it was good. If he had a Labor Department, then he surveyed the work they did and gave his approval. He then put on the finishing touch: by dividing the light from the darkeness.Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. He himself even went on to call the light Day, and the darkness, night.
And so it went. Until we get to Genesis 1:26, when for the first and only time GOD positively and definitively acknowledges the presence of other(s). From this vantage point, we could more confidently reason that when he spoke and said, “let there be…” it was possibly an address to others.So “let there be…”God would command, things would happen, he would appraise what happened, declare it good, add finishing touches here or there as needed, and designate appropriate names accordingly.
“let there be…”
And finally,
“let US make man in OUR own image,…”Gen 1:26 And God said, Let US make MAN in OUR image, after OUR LIKENESS: and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in HIS [own] image, in the image of God created HE him; male and female created HE THEM.
Then he blessed them and rested.
God personally took credit for all the work done; man was created in the image of God, which happened to be the image of the others who were also present.
——————
This IMO, affirms Father to be the God in Genesis 1 who was either personally creating or ordering others to create at his command. At any rate, he takes personal credit for all the work that was done and Jesus does not say otherwise.
MORE SPECULATIONS:
With the above backdrop, we see Hebrews 1:10 from the Trinitarian perspective: Jesus was there creating (John 1:1-3) and therefore he must be the God in persona. Meanwhile, we see by so many other scriptures that Jesus is most definitely a great but different being who is subject to the HIGHEST God. That GOD is outside of all this and very much on his own Throne and command post.
We also see a contrasting figure with a different and displeasing CHARACTER (sinful) emerging, who is subject to the Almighty, someone said to have been present in the Garden of Eden and therefore QUITE POSSIBLY at Genesis 1:26: Besides ADAM II, no such remark is attibuted to any man/god (Adam I – our generation):
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; EVERY PRECIOUS STONE [was] THY COVERING, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the STONES of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I WILL DESTROY THEE, O covering cherub, FROM THE MIDST OF THE STONES OF FIRE.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.Now of Jesus we read: Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: Phl 2:7 But MADE HIMSELF OF NO REPUTATION, and TOOK UPON HIM the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
In contrast, LUCIFER: Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH.
Their rewards, inheritance and destinations greatly differ.JESUS:
Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phl 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phl 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth;
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
LUCIFER:
Isa Isa 14:10 All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
Isa 14:11 Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
…Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Anyway, it seems to me that these two started out the same and one took the wrong route while the other didn't. One is exalted, and the other abased, to be annihilated by the one who pleased God:Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes]. Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Mat 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:So we see this King of Tyre to have had a great measure of glory BEFORE he lost it. This king/prince/god used to be able to go to the holy mountain of God! Why then should it surprise us that Jesus should say he had glory with the Father BEFORE his advent to which he wanted to return?
What is all this Trinity business? Jesus, if he pre-existed, was found to be without iniquity and was therefore anointed w/ the oil of gladness more than his fellows, given a better name by inheritance just as we through him hold the same promise.
Again, the pride of the Prince of Tyre vs. the humility of the Prince of Peace:
Some similarities and contrasts:Meanwhile, we say, “blessed is he who comes in the name of YHWH.”
Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart [is] lifted up, and thou hast said, I [am] a God, I sit [in] the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou [art] a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
So this guy was delusional but he must have had some power to actually think himself a God.
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou [art] WISER THAN DANIEL; there is NO SECRET THAT THEY CAN HIDE FROM THEE:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom [and] by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
This guy is shown to be WISER THAN DANIEL. There is no secret they could hide from him!
Similarly, Jesus said of himself that he is GREATER THAN Solomon.Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.
The fact that both Daniel and Solomon were princes of Judah but Solomon had the preeminence in wisdom and also became King of Israel as Messiah.
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of [them that are] slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I [am] God? but thou [shalt be] a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
The King of Tyre also used his wisdom for self-gain, whereas Jesus became the Lamb whose very blood was shed for many. He said the true shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
This guy had all manner of precious stones, but Jesus became the chief cornerstone of other living stones.
This guy lost what glory he had; Jesus is exalted to greater glory.
This guy is slain whereas Jesus is given to have life eternal within himself and to be the captain of it to many brethren.Hi cubes,
Lovely work thanks.
The other sons of God watched God create earth.
Job 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? “
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 05 2006,03:28) Hi cubes,
Lovely work thanks.
The other sons of God watched God create earth.
Job 38
” 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? “
Thanks Nick, Job 38:1f is adding up. Interestingly, God speaks of himself in the first person “I”, while distinguishing b/n himself and the sons of God. Thus, if he was a pluralistic being, he didn't know it.Also, it would seem reasonable that the “sons of God” should bear the image of GOD, their father, subsequently giving meaning to the phrase, “let US make man in OUR image,” and then finally, “in the image of God created he them.”
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul….
Gen 2:18 ¶ And the LORD God said, [It is] not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female,
Mat 19:5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Mat 19:6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.Quote (Bastian @ Feb. 17 2006,21:32) Where is the Image of God? Is it in his form? The body returns to the ground
Is it in his spirit? Man does not have a spirit, if he did then he would be like God, and be immortal when he dies.
His soul , the life breathe, the mind, the humanity, the essence of a person goes back to God. This stays with the Almighty until the resurrection when it is again united with the body.
Hi:Genesis 1:26 states: “And God said, let 'us' make man in 'our' image…”.
My understanding is that God was speaking to the Spirit of his Son (the Word of God) when He uses the terms us and our image.
John 1:1-3 states: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made”.
Genesis 2:7 states: “And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul”.
1 Co. 15:45 states: “And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening (live-giving) spirit”.
From this I conclude that the first man was like God in that he was a living person or soul with a mind, a free will and emotions. The last man Adam was like God in that he was a living soul and his spirit or personality was made like God as he obey God's Word in this world.
Hebrews 1:3 speaking of Jesus states: “Who being the brightness of His glory, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON…”.
Leviticus 17:11 states: “For the life of the flesh is in the blood…” Ezekiel 18:20 states: “The soul that sinneth it shall die”.
The life of the soul is in obedience to the Word of God that has come to humanity through Jesus Christ. He is that life giving spirit. John 6:53 states: “Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have not life in you”. John 6:63 states explaining the above scripture: “It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing; the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life”.
We know that God told Adam that if He ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die. We know that they disobeyd God and ate and the judgment from God was spiritual death or separation from God (they were cast out of the Garden of Eden into the present world) and physical death. (Genesis 2:16-17, Genesis 3)
Hebrews 9:27 states: “And as it appointed unto man once to die, after this the judgment”.
Matt. 16:27 states: “For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
What goes to God at your physical death is the life that you lived in your body(your works) and not just simply your breathe of life. (Luke 23:46)
Your soul sleeps until the resurrection. (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18)
Hi 94,
Simply feeding on the Word of God is not the way of salvation. That is only effective food for the reborn children of God.Quote (sandra @ April 07 2006,05:04) we would have received this knowledge from the scriptures, which we haven't.
Ezekial's wheels could be a possibility. But what do I know.Chap I don know what I thought I say before, but I thought you had a different picture what you have now. Sorry my mistake, getting old.
But I believe that one has to be Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit and be born from above to become one with the Father and the Son.
Mrs.IM4TruthQuote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 01 2007,21:10) Chap I don know what I thought I say before, but I thought you had a different picture what you have now. Sorry my mistake, getting old.
But I believe that one has to be Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit and be born from above to become one with the Father and the Son.
Mrs.IM4Truth
Mrs IM,Not to worry, Chap changes his avatar weekly, sometimes daily
. It is a sign of his fickle youth! Just curious Chap, but how old are you, 14? 15? This is not an insult but a guess based on your posts.
Quote (kejonn @ Aug. 02 2007,14:14) Quote (IM4Truth @ Aug. 01 2007,21:10) Chap I don know what I thought I say before, but I thought you had a different picture what you have now. Sorry my mistake, getting old.
But I believe that one has to be Baptized and receive the Holy Spirit and be born from above to become one with the Father and the Son.
Mrs.IM4Truth
Mrs IM,Not to worry, Chap changes his avatar weekly, sometimes daily
. It is a sign of his fickle youth! Just curious Chap, but how old are you, 14? 15? This is not an insult but a guess based on your posts.
I think that chap is very young as well.
Isn't it wonderful to have young people so interested in the word of God? Isn't it refreshing?Many people are much older, looking at the final chapters in their lives, before they become interested in their maker.
Tim
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