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They just helped me to see my doubts were well founded. As time goes by, more and more of the bible is disproved. When will we have anything left?
Hi Kj,
So the doubts came first.
As Jesus said to Peter sinking beneath the waves “Why did you doubt?….”Hi KJ,
So progress to date.
You have denied your master.
You have denied the inspiration of the whole bible.
You have deveolped your own very strange ideas about our living God.Turn around for your own sake and that of your children.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 07 2008,21:51) Hi KJ,
So progress to date.
You have denied your master.
Since when is any modern man a slave?Quote You have denied the inspiration of the whole bible.
Some of it. hard to tell which is inspired and which is just “flesh” though. I just cannot accept the view of God given in the bible. That god seems awfully human to me.Quote You have deveolped your own very strange ideas about our living God.
No, the “strange ideas” were first “developed” by another perhaps 3500 or more years ago.Quote Turn around for your own sake and that of your children.
Why? I see no valid reason to believe in the Abrahamic god.Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 08 2008,14:59) Why? I see no valid reason to believe in the Abrahamic god.
Gosh, bro, I'm just not willing to go this far.I have come to believe that some of the bible has been tampered with and changed. But I also believe that the bible is how I came to know God and Jesus; this much is true and real. I know that through the flawed written Word, I found the living Word…..
My views have changed, but I still believe that God is somewhere to be found in the written Word. If nothing else, God's holy spirit can use what is flawed to show truth. With God nothing is impossible.
I believe a lot of men will be in trouble for what they have added and taken away from God's Word. But I tend to think that God is bigger than dried ink…..he can and does still speak today. I have not lost this faith. I pray that you haven't either. It sounds to me like you have just lost faith in the written Word all together? I can't do that because it brought me to God – it can't be all washed up if it showed me who God truly is, can it?
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 08 2008,16:44) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 08 2008,14:59) Why? I see no valid reason to believe in the Abrahamic god.
Gosh, bro, I'm just not willing to go this far.I have come to believe that some of the bible has been tampered with and changed. But I also believe that the bible is how I came to know God and Jesus; this much is true and real. I know that through the flawed written Word, I found the living Word…..
My views have changed, but I still believe that God is somewhere to be found in the written Word. If nothing else, God's holy spirit can use what is flawed to show truth. With God nothing is impossible.
I believe a lot of men will be in trouble for what they have added and taken away from God's Word. But I tend to think that God is bigger than dried ink…..he can and does still speak today. I have not lost this faith. I pray that you haven't either. It sounds to me like you have just lost faith in the written Word all together? I can't do that because it brought me to God – it can't be all washed up if it showed me who God truly is, can it?
How do you know which bits are 'the living word' and which bits are 'dried ink'?Stuart
Hi Stu,
For instance, we have learned that certain verses have been added to or taken away from – this is the dried ink that I speak of.
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 07 2008,23:44) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 08 2008,14:59) Why? I see no valid reason to believe in the Abrahamic god.
Gosh, bro, I'm just not willing to go this far.
No need to. This is MY choice. Perhaps I should rephrase this because the truth is that I see no reason to believe in the Abrahamic view (or version) of Almighty God.You must find your own spiritual path. The early Christians were called atheists because they did not believe in the same gods most others did.
Quote I have come to believe that some of the bible has been tampered with and changed. But I also believe that the bible is how I came to know God and Jesus; this much is true and real. I know that through the flawed written Word, I found the living Word…..
I agree but there is also much more written out of political agenda. Much of the OT was written for this purpose.Quote My views have changed, but I still believe that God is somewhere to be found in the written Word. If nothing else, God's holy spirit can use what is flawed to show truth. With God nothing is impossible.
As I said, if one finds the various flaws in the bible and cannot reason them away (which many do), then the other choices are to stop believing in God, look for a more reasonable view of God, or become liberal in your faith. Many more are doing the third as modern science and archaeology proves much of the bible to be in question.Quote I believe a lot of men will be in trouble for what they have added and taken away from God's Word. But I tend to think that God is bigger than dried ink…..he can and does still speak today. I have not lost this faith. I pray that you haven't either. It sounds to me like you have just lost faith in the written Word all together? I can't do that because it brought me to God – it can't be all washed up if it showed me who God truly is, can it?
I still like much of what I read but I will not use the bible as an accurate description of God. In the OT, God is a ruthless tyrant. I cannot accept that view of God. Too much like historic monarchs who claimed to be deity and called for people to worship them.In the NT, there is no view of God. All there is is a view of a man who was supposed to be the unique son of God. God Himself is a silent partner in the NT so I cannot get any more information about Him in the NT.
But some of the things written in both books are good guides for moral living. Others are not.
Again, this is MY choice Mandy. We all have to make our own choices about faith because if we find we cannot accept the tenets of a faith, how can we live it? I cannot accept Islam because of many of their views, and I have come to the point that I do see how Islam did come from Abrahamic thought.
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 09 2008,00:09) Again, this is MY choice Mandy. We all have to make our own choices about faith because if we find we cannot accept the tenets of a faith, how can we live it?
Thanks for your honesty Kevin. I appreciate the fact that you have been open with your findings as you have searched and your views have changed. I agree with much of what you say and part of me is afraid to agree with other parts. That doesn't mean that I don't find truth or logic in what you are saying, it means I still have that holy fear in my that was given to me as a child through Mother Church. She still watches over me even though I am an adult. I'm trying to break free from most of it, but still, fear keeps some safe while destroying others. It's a hard choice to make.Regarding ETERNAL PUNISHMENT or hell:
I can't post in the section that this was raised so I'll give my 2 cents here.
As a parent, even if I warn my children not to do something a thousand times and they do it without telling me they are sorry….I would never send them to an eternity of suffering simply because they did not obey me.
Why would God our FATHER?
Hi mandy,
God no longer accepts he is a parent to any natural sons of Adam, who turned away from him to Satan. That is why He says through His son that we must be born again.What we do not know is the time taken for the destruction of a soul in the lake of fire.
Hi mandy,
The fire was made, not for men, but for the devil and his angels[mt25].We do know the beast and the false prophet[men] were thrown in at the strart of the millenium and are still said to be there at the end of that time.[Rev20]
Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 09 2008,07:52) Regarding ETERNAL PUNISHMENT or hell: I can't post in the section that this was raised so I'll give my 2 cents here.
As a parent, even if I warn my children not to do something a thousand times and they do it without telling me they are sorry….I would never send them to an eternity of suffering simply because they did not obey me.
Why would God our FATHER?
Hi Mandy:The teaching that God will punish the disobedient for an eternity is a misunderstanding of scripture. The punishment is eternal because there will be no more opportunity for repentance. The disobedient will be destroyed completely. Their punishment will be according to their works.
From the first death, we can be reconciled to God through what He has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ. The death of which I am speaking here is spiritual death. All of us have sinned, and if we have not been reconciled to God through Jesus, we are spirtually dead to God because of our sins. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. Through him we can come to God and have all of our sins forgiven and forgotten, but if we choose not to be reconciled to God, then we will have to go through a second death which will be eternal destruction and separation from God. God will not offer any more sacrifice for our sins other than what He has already offered out of His love for us.
This world is temporary for the purpose of giving everyone an opportunity to be reconciled to God. This world of sin was not intended to continue and cannot continue. As you can see, man is destroying this planet. God made every thing that he made with His children in mind.
If someone is destroyed, it is not God's fault, but it is that person's choice to be destroyed. It sounds like a foolish choice to me. Why would any one choose to be destroyed when the scripture states:
Quote 1 Co. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 09 2008,11:42) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 09 2008,07:52) Regarding ETERNAL PUNISHMENT or hell: I can't post in the section that this was raised so I'll give my 2 cents here.
As a parent, even if I warn my children not to do something a thousand times and they do it without telling me they are sorry….I would never send them to an eternity of suffering simply because they did not obey me.
Why would God our FATHER?
Hi Mandy:The teaching that God will punish the disobedient for an eternity is a misunderstanding of scripture. The punishment is eternal because there will be no more opportunity for repentance. The disobedient will be destroyed completely. Their punishment will be according to their works.
From the first death, we can be reconciled to God through what He has done for us in the person of His Son and His Christ. The death of which I am speaking here is spiritual death. All of us have sinned, and if we have not been reconciled to God through Jesus, we are spirtually dead to God because of our sins. Jesus is the propitiation for our sins. Through him we can come to God and have all of our sins forgiven and forgotten, but if we choose not to be reconciled to God, then we will have to go through a second death which will be eternal destruction and separation from God. God will not offer any more sacrifice for our sins other than what He has already offered out of His love for us.
This world is temporary for the purpose of giving everyone an opportunity to be reconciled to God. This world of sin was not intended to continue and cannot continue. As you can see, man is destroying this planet. God made every thing that he made with His children in mind.
If someone is destroyed, it is not God's fault, but it is that person's choice to be destroyed. It sounds like a foolish choice to me. Why would any one choose to be destroyed when the scripture states:
Quote 1 Co. 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. God Bless
Hi 942767Have you sat down and really thought critically about the sense this makes?
The 'disobedient' will not be punished for eternity but destroyed completely. In other words god takes no prisoners, and it could be any crackpot dictator of a banana republic using the same words.
'Man is destroying this planet'. Perhaps if you are socially conservative and hate to see social progression that emancipates persecuted groups, then you might consider the world is being destroyed, but objectively it is exactly this kind of belief system that is destroying people, not in any way really helping them to grow. If you are desparate to see the apparently drug-fuelled writings of revelation played out then I suppose you would be rejoycing in the destruction of the world. Are you?
'If someone is destroyed, it is not god's fault' really does pose the question of why you worship god.
The Corinthians verse is very typical 'children if you're good there might be some cookies for you later', with emotional blackmail attached.
No wonder people who are serious about thinking in this way are liable for social exclusion. Friendships are secondary to living a life of fear of the unknowable, and in the service of a petulant and dictatorial supernatural being in the hope of being obsequious enough to get points on the Eternity Clubcard.
I deny that Jesus is the messiah, and I don't think he ever actually claimed to be so. On the strength of what humans have invented about him, your god has less cause for worship than you do.
Stuart
Quote I think my study of scripture actually has greater depth than yours does, because my reading between the lines is not clouded by wishful thinking. –stu (Jesus is Messiah, thread)
Quote I deny that Jesus is the messiah, and I don't think he ever actually claimed to be so. –stu, this thread.
JOHN 4:25-26
“The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·si′ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly.” Jesus said to her: “I who am speaking to you am he.”” (compare mat 16:16,17)Quote (david @ Mar. 09 2008,15:39) Quote I think my study of scripture actually has greater depth than yours does, because my reading between the lines is not clouded by wishful thinking. –stu (Jesus is Messiah, thread)
Quote I deny that Jesus is the messiah, and I don't think he ever actually claimed to be so. –stu, this thread.
JOHN 4:25-26
“The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·si′ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly.” Jesus said to her: “I who am speaking to you am he.”” (compare mat 16:16,17)
The writer of John says that Jesus said this. You see what I mean about clouded by wishful thinking? There is a whole clear generation filled with nothing but Paul between Jesus and the writings of John. Read between the lines. Understand the allegorical styles of writing of the period. Don't just slavishly believe this stuff! It is very likely a con job by Saul of Tarsus.Stuart
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