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Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 26 2008,16:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,16:05) Hi mandy,
It is not the godless gunman blazing away that is the real threat
but the soft shoe philosophy salesman who would pick your pocket of faith.
Nick, I know you mean well. However the things that Cato writes are not a threat to my faith, nor do I see them as purely humanistic.What has been more a threat to my faith has come from believer's such as yourself, who plainly see the various flaws with scripture and say nothing. Nor will you even allow yourlsef to acknowledge any part of the concern. This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? It makes me lose faith in the unquestionable.
Mandy! I have been very sad ever since you have denied Jesus Christ as your Savior. And now you feel like it is Nick's fault, because He is not positive? Did I help too? You told me that you have lost faith. That is no body's fault, but your own. We are to prove all things, not our neighbor.
Please don't feel offended, but I just had to say something. We make our own decision, and we can't blame others for doing so, Mandy.
Peace be with you, I will always love you.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (kejonn @ Mar. 25 2008,20:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 25 2008,01:26) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 25 2008,07:41) So says one of the people who never saw the resurrected Jesus (Paul).
and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (1 Cor 15: 5-8)Apparently he did….
- Act 9:3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”If you consider a light and a voice an “appearance” than OK.
Acts 9:3-9
3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5″Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6″Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.The text does not reveal whether Saul saw or did not see Yeshua. Although the two others who were with him saw nothing, but heard something. It's hard to draw definitive conclusions from this passage. However, in 1 Cor 15:8 Paul declared that Yeshua did appear to him. Preceding this he rattled of some others whom Yeshua also appeared to – visually and physically. They “saw” Him kejonn. So it stands to reason that he appeared to Saul in the same way.
Quote Could have as easily been “satan” for all we know since - 2Co 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Acts 9:5-19
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6″Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. 11The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” 13″Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.” 15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.Interesting. Applying your theory to the Acts 9 text – Satan would have instructed Saul of Tasus to go and make contact with Ananias who would take his part in facilitating him to take the Gospel to the gentiles and probably play the single biggest part (besides Yeshua, that is) in the proliferation of Christianity across the globe. Does that sound like something Satan would do?
Quote This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? Mandy, I too have often stated the same. If I'm talking to someone such as Nick and I repeatedly ask him a question that he can't answer then that makes me wonder and think that perhaps he can't answer the question because he would be exposing his own faulty thinking.
But it doesn't make me wonder about Christianity. It makes me wonder about Nick, (for example.) and what Nick believes.
And of course you are to question blind faith. The Bible does not suggest blind faith.
Quote (david @ Mar. 26 2008,19:04) Quote This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? Mandy, I too have often stated the same. If I'm talking to someone such as Nick and I repeatedly ask him a question that he can't answer then that makes me wonder and think that perhaps he can't answer the question because he would be exposing his own faulty thinking.
But it doesn't make me wonder about Christianity. It makes me wonder about Nick, (for example.) and what Nick believes.
And of course you are to question blind faith. The Bible does not suggest blind faith.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.Are you not blind to things you can’t see?
2 Cor 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight
…not by sight…
1 Pet 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
…having not seen…
The bible requires both metaphorical and literal blindness of faith.
Stuart
Quote (david @ Mar. 26 2008,19:04) Quote This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? Mandy, I too have often stated the same. If I'm talking to someone such as Nick and I repeatedly ask him a question that he can't answer then that makes me wonder and think that perhaps he can't answer the question because he would be exposing his own faulty thinking.
But it doesn't make me wonder about Christianity. It makes me wonder about Nick, (for example.) and what Nick believes.
And of course you are to question blind faith. The Bible does not suggest blind faith.
But we must not judge others.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,10:05) Hi cato,
The kingdom of God existed before earth and it's puny inhabitants were created.
But vain men seem to think that it was ever all about men.
Men are offered a lifeline in Jesus Christ.
But we are owed nothing.
What does Nick believe?Despite this:
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Psa 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
1 Cor 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God
Nick maintains a poor view of humanity, even just for those who do 'follow their maker's will'
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,16:05) Hi mandy,
It is not the godless gunman blazing away that is the real threat
but the soft shoe philosophy salesman who would pick your pocket of faith.
Why scripture, Nick?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,06:37) Hi cato,
Humanism?
Reason rules over all?
Yes that sort of religion is immensely popular.
Nick,1. So anything not directly connected to what you view as scripture is humanist then?
2. If you actually read my post you would note that I found that reason and faith should be complimentary. You want faith to disregard reason while I find it best that they are in agreement.
3. I find many problems with today's world is that reason is unfortunately all to unpopular with religions rather then the reverse. Just look at radical Islam today, is their shortcomings lack of faith, no it is lack of reason.
Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 26 2008,02:02) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 25 2008,20:19) Quote (Is 1:18 @ Mar. 25 2008,01:26) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 25 2008,07:41) So says one of the people who never saw the resurrected Jesus (Paul).
and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. (1 Cor 15: 5-8)Apparently he did….
- Act 9:3 As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him;
Act 9:4 and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”If you consider a light and a voice an “appearance” than OK.
Acts 9:3-9
3As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
5″Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6″Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything.The text does not reveal whether Saul saw or did not see Yeshua. Although the two others who were with him saw nothing, but heard something. It's hard to draw definitive conclusions from this passage. However, in 1 Cor 15:8 Paul declared that Yeshua did appear to him. Preceding this he rattled of some others whom Yeshua also appeared to – visually and physically. They “saw” Him kejonn. So it stands to reason that he appeared to Saul in the same way.
Perhaps, but according to the retelling of the Damascus Road experience, which happens 3 times, there is never once a mention of anything besides a light and a voice. So that means that Paul was likely speaking of that as his appearance. Since Paul had never walked with Jesus, what makes anyone so certain it was not the infamous “satan” speaking with Paul? After all, notice that the voice does not tell Paul to go to the appointed apostles, but to another man. That is quite odd. Beyond that, the authentic 12 rarely seem to get along with Paul.Quote Quote Could have as easily been “satan” for all we know since - 2Co 11:14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Acts 9:5-19
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6″Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.” 7The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, “Ananias!” “Yes, Lord,” he answered. 11The Lord told him, “Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight.” 13″Lord,” Ananias answered, “I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name.” 15But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16I will show him how much he must suffer for my name.” 17Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord—Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here—has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19and after taking some food, he regained his strength.Interesting. Applying your theory to the Acts 9 text – Satan would have instructed Saul of Tasus to go and make contact with Ananias who would take his part in facilitating him to take the Gospel to the gentiles and probably play the single biggest part (besides Yeshua, that is) in the proliferation of Christianity across the globe. Does that sound like something Satan would do?
Yes, if it was a false gospel. What if what you read in the NT is all a ruse of “satan”? After all, the theology of the NT is very unlike the Hebrew theology it is supposed to be based on. Much of that is thanks to Paul.And who is this Ananias? Surely he was not the one that died in Acts 5. How do we know he ever met the living Jesus? If he didn't, then again this could be “satan” speaking to him in a vision.
Odd that the gospels were basically written by anonymous authors. They have names only due to tradition. Paul put his name in his letters.
Just something to ponder.
Something else to ponder. Once the gospels and Paul's writings reached a greater number of people, who became the target of hatred? The Jews, God's chosen people according to the OT.
Then, the next religion based on Abrahamic faith, Islam came along. It too was a a religion that resulted in the death of millions in history. Today, Israel is the enemy of most Muslims.
How is it that the Jews, God's chosen people, have become the main target of hatred by the two main religions that supposedly sprung from the first Abrahamic faith?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,05:52) Quote (Cato @ Mar. 25 2008,22:31) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 25 2008,10:05) Hi cato,
The kingdom of God existed before earth and it's puny inhabitants were created.
But vain men seem to think that it was ever all about men.
Men are offered a lifeline in Jesus Christ.
But we are owed nothing.
Nick,Your point being? You earlier proposed a question to KJ on what would he then propose to God as a system for souls and I chose to answer that. You only then say it is not about man. Well I don't think mankind is the center of the universe or the most important thing in creation, and the God who created us can do with us however it pleases him. Yet I would think God had a purpose for us and a method for dealing with us that would meet that purpose. What is stated in scripture seems not to answer this. Your view of God is one who makes mistakes Gen 6:7 “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.” Imagine God actually sorry for doing something. How if God is all-knowing and all-powerful? The OT view and so I think in turn yours, is a very narrow and limited view of the Almighty. I for one, would think the Creator above regret and repentence.
Hi cato,
We cannot develop ideas about what God should be like from our imagination.
He has shown us what He is like in scripture.
Look there first.
So reason is out, next we should be careful with imagination, you have a very Orwellian view of religion. I suppose you also believe that freedom is slavery and ignorance strength too. You say God is revealed in scripture, I looked there and I quoted Gen 6:7, you never answered that point. According to your scripture God makes mistakes and has human emotions like regret, much less hate and jealousy. I view God as above such, incapable of mistake and beyond petty human emotions like hate and jealousy. My God is all knowing and all powerful, the Creator of the very universe, who is yours?More, from Early Christianity Backgrounds
- The religion of the Pharisees was the orthodox religion of the Jewish world at the time Christianity emerged; beneath this, however, their existed a living, dynamic popular religion that had many unique and unorthodox characteristics. We know much about this popular religion from the only organized and systematic form that Jewish popular religion took: Essene Judaism. We assume, however, that popular Judaism outside the Essene boundaries looked very similar.
The Essenes took many of their beliefs from Persian sources and popular superstition and merged them with orthodox Jewish tradition. From Persia they took apocalypticism, a dualistic world view, and a myth of an evil god in conflict with Yahweh; from popular superstitions they took a belief in the operations of angels and demons and a set of rituals and healing practices designed to ward off demons.
Essene and popular Judaism believed that the universe was divided into two competing forces, a force of good—Yahweh—and a force of evil, which was given various names. Human history and human life could be understood in terms of the conflict between these two forces. They also believed that the conflict would end in a final battle, after which the world would be destroyed, humanity would be judged, and the universe would be set right permanently.
These ideas were introduced into the Hebrew world view by the Persians and their religion, Zoroastrianism, and combined with indigenous Hebrew ideas such as the idea of Yahweh as judge of humanity and the old Israelite idea of the last Day of the Lord. Zoroastrianism asserted that the the universe was created by a supreme and benficent god, Ahura Mazda, but was marred by the conflict engendered by an equally powerful evil god, Angra Mainyu or Ahriman. Human history and human life was the stage on which this conflict was played out. At the end of time, the world would be destroyed and human beings would be judged through fire. Then would follow a final conflict between the forces of Ahura Mazda and Angra Mainyu; the latter would be defeated and the history of the universe would come to an end.
All of this was taken up in popular Judaism; these views, however, were considered heretical in orthodox Judaism. In addition, Zoroastrianism divided history into epochs, each lasting 3000 years. Early Christianity would derive its sense of the divisions of history from the Zoroastrian epochs.
In popular Judaism, people believed that many if not most phenomena were caused by angels, servants of God, and demons. “Demon,” actually, is a bad translation—in Greek the word means a “good spirit.” The Hebrew words most commonly used were Mazzikin and Shedim, both of which mean “destroyers.”
The concept of angels were derived from polytheistic religion; since they all began as gods and closely resembled gods, orthodox Judaism did not encourage angelogy though angels were an officially sanctioned theological belief. From an orthodox view, however, belief in angels detracted from the supremacy of Yahweh, who intervened directly in human life and history, and from the central role of humanity and human obedience to Yahweh. The importance of angels in Jewish thought and practice accelerated dramatically after the Exile as the historical situation looked increasingly desparate and began to appear in Jewish writings frequently. It was believed that angels served both a protective and intercessory role. It was angels, for instance, that brought one's prayers to Yahweh. The essential character of angels, though, was that they were supernatural beings that humans needed to deal with to influence phenomena; all sorts of shamanistic and ritualistic practices arose around this belief.
The Mazzikin and Shedim, however, were even more deeply ingrained in popular Jewish thought and practice. Almost all untoward events, including sickness and accidents, were ascribed to their influence. They lived in dirty and unclean places and literally surrounded by the thousands every individual in their daily lives and so constituted an ever-present threat. In daily life, this produced a special set of ritualistic and magical practices designed to ward off demons or cast them off when they successfully made someone sick, insane, or whatever. Daily life involved the use of prophylactics, such as charms, and prophylactic practices, such as not praying near dirt, to ward of demons. Daily life also included shamanic healing that, by casting demons out of a sick animal or human, also cast out their baleful influence.
The biographies of Jesus of Nazareth plant him firmly in this shamanic tradition and some scholars believe that this was his essential historical identity. The biogaphers of Jesus of Nazareth would fold this shamanism into a larger structure of understanding the Christ event history which, for them, was entirely comprised of the death and resurrection of Christ the god.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 26 2008,19:58) Quote (david @ Mar. 26 2008,19:04) Quote This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? Mandy, I too have often stated the same. If I'm talking to someone such as Nick and I repeatedly ask him a question that he can't answer then that makes me wonder and think that perhaps he can't answer the question because he would be exposing his own faulty thinking.
But it doesn't make me wonder about Christianity. It makes me wonder about Nick, (for example.) and what Nick believes.
And of course you are to question blind faith. The Bible does not suggest blind faith.
But we must not judge others.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 26 2008,17:51) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 26 2008,16:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,16:05) Hi mandy,
It is not the godless gunman blazing away that is the real threat
but the soft shoe philosophy salesman who would pick your pocket of faith.
Nick, I know you mean well. However the things that Cato writes are not a threat to my faith, nor do I see them as purely humanistic.What has been more a threat to my faith has come from believer's such as yourself, who plainly see the various flaws with scripture and say nothing. Nor will you even allow yourlsef to acknowledge any part of the concern. This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? It makes me lose faith in the unquestionable.
Mandy! I have been very sad ever since you have denied Jesus Christ as your Savior. And now you feel like it is Nick's fault, because He is not positive? Did I help too? You told me that you have lost faith. That is no body's fault, but your own. We are to prove all things, not our neighbor.
Please don't feel offended, but I just had to say something. We make our own decision, and we can't blame others for doing so, Mandy.
Peace be with you, I will always love you.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,First of all, I've never “denied” Jesus as my Savior. I only said that I am doubting and searching the truth out.
Secondly, you misunderstand my beef with Nick. None of my doubting is Nick's fault per se. I have become discouraged with “believers” who, like him, will not address the obvious concerns that folks like me have.
Lastly, you should not speak of being judgemental of your brother's and sisters as you fill that role quite often here. You need only look to the Trinity thread to see where you have (once again) told someone they are “wrong” and why you are right. Regardless, look to the log in your own eye before trying to help me with the speck in mine, please.
And peace be with you, and I will always love you.
MandyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 27 2008,08:31) Hi mandy,
God sends the Comforter.
We are poor servants
Yes we are poor servants indeed. And judgemental at that, we are bad through and through. No good. All bad. Yes indeed. All have fallen short of the glory of God. And I am no diffrent. I admit. So am I a sinner, Oh yes. I confess.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 26 2008,15:27) Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 26 2008,17:51) Quote (Mandy @ Mar. 26 2008,16:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 26 2008,16:05) Hi mandy,
It is not the godless gunman blazing away that is the real threat
but the soft shoe philosophy salesman who would pick your pocket of faith.
Nick, I know you mean well. However the things that Cato writes are not a threat to my faith, nor do I see them as purely humanistic.What has been more a threat to my faith has come from believer's such as yourself, who plainly see the various flaws with scripture and say nothing. Nor will you even allow yourlsef to acknowledge any part of the concern. This has made me question blind faith in Christianity. When I ask questions and I am only told to not ask questions, that makes me wonder? It makes me lose faith in the unquestionable.
Mandy! I have been very sad ever since you have denied Jesus Christ as your Savior. And now you feel like it is Nick's fault, because He is not positive? Did I help too? You told me that you have lost faith. That is no body's fault, but your own. We are to prove all things, not our neighbor.
Please don't feel offended, but I just had to say something. We make our own decision, and we can't blame others for doing so, Mandy.
Peace be with you, I will always love you.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi Irene,First of all, I've never “denied” Jesus as my Savior. I only said that I am doubting and searching the truth out.
What people seem to miss here is that someone can logically question that Jesus is the Jewish messiah without placing doubt on his “savior” status. Many people have been “saved” from a destructive lifestyle through believing in Jesus. So in that sense, he is their “savior” is he not?Look at Samuel's recent posts. Samuel said his life was head in the wrong direction until he gave it over to Jesus. In that simple way, Jesus became Samuel's “savior”.
I think that people want to force Jesus into fitting the role of the Jewish messiah when it is quite apparent that he does not meet the requirements. Yet that does not mean the writings of his life and the subsequent faith in them do not have the power to deliver, thus offering “salvation”.
I will freely, proudly, and openly admit that belief in Jesus led me to God. However, as the years have progressed, Jesus has taken on a different role. I see him as a historical figure, as a great reformer, and as someone who wished to give his life to God. Sadly, others came along and inserted other things into his life story to try to create legitimacy and it may backfire with some after indepth study. It has with me. I have a feeling the NT writers did not wager that some would investigate too deeply, at least not when very few actually had access to the Hebrew scriptures. In modern society, we do. But they worked in a different setting so they never imagined what things would turn out to be.
Hi KJ,
So with a modern perspective you can state that Jesus was not who he claimed to be.
What a pity you were never reborn from above so you could see the truth.
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