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Hi Stu,
I am surprised the ratio of believers among the clergy is so high.
They have managed their religion without any divine involvement since Constantine.
Sooner or later the truth will become plain to you.Hi Stu,
Of course most of the world does not believe and most of those who do believe do not obey.
So any appeal for us to return to the common denominator of ignorance falls on deaf ears.
The advantages in the here and now as well as those beyond life are worth the choice.Hi Nick
Quote I am surprised the ratio of believers among the clergy is so high.
They have managed their religion without any divine involvement since Constantine.
Sooner or later the truth will become plain to you.
Of course most of the world does not believe and most of those who do believe do not obey.
So any appeal for us to return to the common denominator of ignorance falls on deaf ears.
The advantages in the here and now as well as those beyond life are worth the choice.Of course the manner of your reply or lack of it is your prerogative, but I didn’t ask your opinion on why people don’t believe exactly what you believe. I didn’t ask about the advantage / disadvantage ratio in believing. I did not ask you to prostyletise.
I asked you to give some insight on why god makes his ‘truth’ so difficult to believe, ridiculous as it is.
Stuart
See? You're confused in who you are talking to. OR, and I can get this, you are trying to insult either Stu or I by “confusing” us.
Harassment is not tolerated on this site.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,20:06) Hi KJ,
Hard to believe?
I do not understand.
You know full well most of the population (ie a majority, as I demonstrated by a survey) find beliefs of the kind you find facile, difficult. Once again, I am not asking your opinion, I want to know why your god makes it difficult for people to believe.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,20:27) Hi KJ,
You are right this time for once.
Sorry.
He was right last time as well!Or are you admitting harassment?
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,20:29) Hi Stu,
If it is an insult to call you KJ then I apologise.
Why does god make his tenets so difficult for people to believe in?Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,20:42) Hi Stu,
I do not understand what you mean.
What credibility is there in a god that created logic and a universe that makes connected-up sense in all respects we have yet managed to comprehend, to then demand that we believe things that are so out of step with that well-understood logical and sensible universe, for example a person born of one human parent or resurrection or walking on water which are pretty irrefutable impossible.Christianity could be the only cult that requires its adherents to take impossible things at face value. Why does god make it that hard for people?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Perhaps the strangest doctrines are the godless ones?1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,21:18) Hi Stu,
Perhaps the strangest doctrines are the godless ones?1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For it is a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
But that wasn't the question.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 22 2008,01:50) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 22 2008,18:44) Hi Stu,
Miracles are commonplace in the recorded actions of our God among men.
The scientific mind believes what is, is all there is, or can be.
It is a sad extrapolation from their weak measures.
Why does your scripture claim truths that seem ridiculous? It is not just scientists who find your 'truth' hard to swallow.1 in every 33 Anglican clergy does not believe there is a god.
Refer to the table half-way down on this page:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_comp.htmNo country on this list, not even the theocratic United States, can muster even 50% belief in miracles. Why is this obvious truth of your so unbelievably obscure?
Stuart
Interesting. Only 34% of Americans believe the bible is inerrant.What's even more interesting is that more people in the Philippines believe in God (86% vs 63%) and the bible's inerrancy (54% vs 34%) but there are a greater number who believe in evolution (61% vs 35%) than in America.
Hi KJ:
As you say the Ten Commandments are mostly common sense, but do men who do not know God live by them?
Things like being addicted to drugs, or cigarettes are not mentioned specifically in the bible, but the addiction are covered by the first commandment because these things become a God to the individual that is addicted.
There are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand. Of course, it was not a sin for a woman to have her period. We know that is a natural process. And so, the question is why was she considered unclean relative to entering the temple. We must remember that they did not the nice fancy showers and hot tubs etc. that we have in modern society. It was because there might be contagious diseases that could be present when she was in this condition.
You asked of my experience versus someone elses experience. I know that the Spirit of God dwells within me and that God by His Spirit testifies of His reality and of the reality of His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ. And yes, you have heard this before also, and you did not believe it then, and you probably won't believe it now, but it is the truth, and that is all that I can give to you.
I don't know whether or not I answered all of your question, and so, please ask if your have a question.
Hi 942767
Quote As you say the Ten Commandments are mostly common sense, but do men who do not know God live by them?
I don’t ‘know’ god and I don’t live by the commandments. So what if I don’t?Quote Things like being addicted to drugs, or cigarettes are not mentioned specifically in the bible, but the addiction are covered by the first commandment because these things become a God to the individual that is addicted.
Do people worship cigarettes? I think most smokers curse them.Quote There are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand. Of course, it was not a sin for a woman to have her period. We know that is a natural process. And so, the question is why was she considered unclean relative to entering the temple. We must remember that they did not the nice fancy showers and hot tubs etc. that we have in modern society. It was because there might be contagious diseases that could be present when she was in this condition.
You’ve got to be joking! Are you seriously saying that there was some disease that people could catch because a woman was menstruating? Might you be able to name such a disease?Stuart
Hi KJ:
You ask:
Quote What makes you think that merely following what is written in the bible is “obeying God”? Do you think God is some dictator in the sky who has laid out a list of rules to follow? Or is the list one formed by man with God's name stamped to them? Many of the commandments of the Torah are certainly odd — particularly those that degrade women. In the OT it is a sin to have a period. No, I don't think God is a dictator. I know Him as the Father of my spirit who teaches me goodly principles to follow out of His love for me. I obey Him out of my love for Him and because I know that He wants what is best for me. Yes, I know that there is a day of judgment coming for all, and I don't want to be one of those who has rejected His love. I don't think that is very wise, but you do not have to obey God it is each person's choice.
Yes, there are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand, but we can understand them if we will pray and ask God for understanding. I have already given you an answer relative to your statement that it was a sin for a woman to have a period.
You say in response to my statement saying that God is a God of justice.
Quote I've heard that line before. It comes from those who think justice is when God has people slaughtered. For what? What justice is there in killing the firstborns of Egypt because of one man, particularly if you remember that it was God (according to the OT) who cause Pharaoh to refuse Moses one more time. So God manipulated a man so that He could in turn slaughter innocent babes in their cradle. There is alot of symbolism in the OT and this one of those areas where there is symbolism. The first born of Egypt are those who have not been born again.
Quote Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
When the angel of death sees the blood of the passover lamb on the door posts of a person's house (heart) the death angel will spare that house.
Pharaoh was an unbeliever. God did not manipulate him for any reason. Deliverance from bongdage from him is symbolic of a born again believer being delivered from bondage to sin.
Judgment against Pharaoh and his army represents judgment that God will render to those who persecute His people.
Quote Exd 9:16 And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. Exd 9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go
You say:
Quote You say: But do you not realize that there are others of different religions who will have a similar life experience in their faith? They might say that they were delivered from something too, and how would what they have experienced be any less than yours? Only because you believe so?
Of my experience, I can tell you with certainty. Of someone elses I cannot.
You say:
Quote That's fear speaking. What kind of God do you think He is to condemn anyone for being human? And the bible says:
Quote Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Quote 1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love Then you say:
Quote
This the God of Abraham that I know.Then you ignore alot of passages in the bible.
No, I don't ignore them. There are some of them I don't understand, but I don't ignore them. If I need to know the answer to anything in the bible, I can go to God in prayer and ask for understanding, and He will give it to me.
Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2008,20:33) Hi KJ: As you say the Ten Commandments are mostly common sense, but do men who do not know God live by them?
Do people who “know” God live by them either? I can tell you through personal experience that the answer is an overall “no”. Most of the Christians I know are just people who say they have certain beliefs. For the most part the rest of their lives are little different than good, moral non-Christians.Quote Things like being addicted to drugs, or cigarettes are not mentioned specifically in the bible, but the addiction are covered by the first commandment because these things become a God to the individual that is addicted.
How so? I know that was a big thing, calling some things idols, but that is just trying to apply modern thought to primitive scripture and fitting the square peg in the round hole. Idols were idols, and were a matter of superstition.Quote There are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand.
They are not difficult to understand unless you are trying to make the biblical view of God into something that it is not. Our modern minds cannot fathom primitive superstition.Quote Of course, it was not a sin for a woman to have her period. We know that is a natural process. And so, the question is why was she considered unclean relative to entering the temple. We must remember that they did not the nice fancy showers and hot tubs etc. that we have in modern society. It was because there might be contagious diseases that could be present when she was in this condition. - Lev 15:28 'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.
Lev 15:29 'Then on the eighth day she shall take for herself two turtledoves or two young pigeons and bring them in to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting.
Lev 15:30 'The priest shall offer the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. So the priest shall make atonement on her behalf before the LORD because of her impure discharge.'“Sin offering”? Why would a woman need a “sin offering” unless the “discharge” was considered a sin? You are being apologetic.
Quote You asked of my experience versus someone elses experience. I know that the Spirit of God dwells within me and that God by His Spirit testifies of His reality and of the reality of His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ. And yes, you have heard this before also, and you did not believe it then, and you probably won't believe it now, but it is the truth, and that is all that I can give to you.
I cannot take your experience away, but then again, I cannot take away the experience of a JW, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Bahai, etc. You have come to accept God in the Abrahamic view, and while I once did, I no longer can.Quote I don't know whether or not I answered all of your question, and so, please ask if your have a question.
I don't really have any questions. I've encountered all sorts of people who call themselves “Christian”. You fall in the “fundamentalist” category, and living in the Bible Belt, I've encountered more people like you than any other. So I already know enough.Hi KJ:
Relative to these statements below:
Quote Quote (942767 @ Mar. 22 2008,20:33)
Hi KJ:As you say the Ten Commandments are mostly common sense, but do men who do not know God live by them?
Do people who “know” God live by them either? I can tell you through personal experience that the answer is an overall “no”. Most of the Christians I know are just people who say they have certain beliefs. For the most part the rest of their lives are little different than good, moral non-Christians.
People that profess to be Christians and are not living the life are not Christians but hypocrites, but you are not the judge and neither am I. God knows all things.
And relative to this:
Quote Quote
There are many things in the OT that are difficult to understand.They are not difficult to understand unless you are trying to make the biblical view of God into something that it is not. Our modern minds cannot fathom primitive superstition.
I know who he is through personal experience, and I love him and appreciate him for who He is and what He means to me.
Quote Jhn 14:7 ¶ If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. Relative to this:
Quote Quote
Of course, it was not a sin for a woman to have her period. We know that is a natural process. And so, the question is why was she considered unclean relative to entering the temple. We must remember that they did not the nice fancy showers and hot tubs etc. that we have in modern society. It was because there might be contagious diseases that could be present when she was in this condition.Lev 15:28 'When she becomes clean from her discharge, she shall count off for herself seven days; and afterward she will be clean.
Lev 15:29 'Then on the eighth day she shall take for herself two turtledoves or two young pigeons and bring them in to the priest, to the doorway of the tent of meeting.
Lev 15:30 'The priest shall offer the one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. So the priest shall make atonement on her behalf before the LORD because of her impure discharge.'“Sin offering”? Why would a woman need a “sin offering” unless the “discharge” was considered a sin? You are being apologetic.
God, you and I know that a woman's period is a natural process and is not a sin. There may have been another reason for the sin offering, but no, common sense tells me that there has to be another reason.
And relative to this:
Quote Quote
You asked of my experience versus someone elses experience. I know that the Spirit of God dwells within me and that God by His Spirit testifies of His reality and of the reality of His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ. And yes, you have heard this before also, and you did not believe it then, and you probably won't believe it now, but it is the truth, and that is all that I can give to you.I cannot take your experience away, but then again, I cannot take away the experience of a JW, Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Taoist, Bahai, etc. You have come to accept God in the Abrahamic view, and while I once did, I no longer can.
No one can take my experience away, and I won't try to take someone else's experience away from them, but I do know that Jesus was sent from God and has taught us His Word, and he has stated:
Quote Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And about this:
Quote Quote
I don't know whether or not I answered all of your question, and so, please ask if your have a question.I don't really have any questions. I've encountered all sorts of people who call themselves “Christian”. You fall in the “fundamentalist” category, and living in the Bible Belt, I've encountered more people like you than any other. So I already know enough.
Just trying to help, but as you say:
Quote So I already know enough
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