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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,22:41) Hi KJ,
Your should address criticisms of scripture to the Author,
and not His servants,
if you dare.
Already have. Never got an answer so now I'm asking one of his “faithful servants”. You say all of the bible is true and of God. The question I ask is a biblical one because the passage is found therein.- Deu 22:28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.So I ask again in light of this passage: is it OK for your daughter to be raped and then allow the rapist to marry your daughter after paying you 50 shekels?
This question is for SAYWF (Mrs). It relates to a post made in the “Getting to know you thread”
Quote (seek and you will find @ Mar. 15 2008,01:30) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 15 2008,18:25) Cato and seek and you will find , you have each had an experience that was inexplicable and you have then made a causal link to the Judeo-christian god. My further question to each of you is how do you know that it is that god and not another one that is signifying its presence to you? After all if you had been born in India it is much more likely you would be attributing the inexplicable to Shiva or one of that lot of gods. Stuart
Stu But we were not born in India are we not the lucky ones. Even if we would there are Christians in India are there not?Peace and Love Mrs.
What if you had been born in Saudi Arabia? From wikipedia- Saudi Arabia allows Christians to enter the country as temporary workers, but does not allow them to practice their faith. Unofficially foreign Christians are generally allowed to worship in private homes or even hold services at local schools provided that it is not spoken of in public. The Saudi Mutaween (Arabic: مطوعين), or Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice (i.e., the religious police) prohibits practise of Christian religion. All citizens must be Muslims. There likely are more than 500 000 Catholics in Saudi Arabia. The percentage of Christians among the about 800,000 Filipinos in Saudi Arabia likely exceeds 90 %. Conversion by a Muslim to another religion is considered apostasy, a crime punishable by death if the accused does not recant. The Government does not permit non-Muslim clergy to enter the country for the purpose of conducting religious services. Bibles and other Christian material is prohibited.
What Stu was trying to show you is that if you were born somewhere else, in another culture, you would likely be influenced by that to accept a different religion as the truth. Islam is growing while Christianity is barely holding its own or declining.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,07:35) Hi KJ,
Does it surprise you that someone who mocks God gets no responses to his prayers?
Metastudies of intercessory prayer research show that god does not answer your prayers either. Maybe you imagine he does. Such is the power of the human mind to attribute intent where there is none.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 15 2008,14:35) Hi KJ,
Does it surprise you that someone who mocks God gets no responses to his prayers?
What are you talking about? Have I said anything about not getting prayers answered? Or is that just your baseless assumption?Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,09:28) Hi Stu,
Really?
You know so much?
Well I do know that humans are very prone to delusion. You must know that much too. Maybe you can't see how it applies to you. That is sad, but understandable.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,19:44) Hi Stu,
Delusion is in the mind of the beholder?
You tell me if it is!Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 15 2008,22:25) What Stu was trying to show you is that if you were born somewhere else, in another culture, you would likely be influenced by that to accept a different religion as the truth. Islam is growing while Christianity is barely holding its own or declining.
Likewise Stu comes from the West and believes in like manner the doctrines/religion of the West such as Evolution.I was indoctrinated once myself, but broke free of it when I sought the truth and found it.
It is true that when a person is born to a certain culture that that culture has an influence. But to believe in God is actually the opposite of what the West teaches you at school.
So the argument can be made of Stu more so to a person who believes in God cannot it not?
Quote (Stu @ Mar. 16 2008,19:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,09:28) Hi Stu,
Really?
You know so much?
Well I do know that humans are very prone to delusion. You must know that much too. Maybe you can't see how it applies to you. That is sad, but understandable.Stuart
Actually I would love to see the expression on your face when you are seated at the judgement and giving an account of your life to God. Truly it would be better if you found the truth for yourself here and now, but one way or another you will know the truth.Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 15 2008,21:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,22:41) Hi KJ,
Your should address criticisms of scripture to the Author,
and not His servants,
if you dare.
Already have. Never got an answer so now I'm asking one of his “faithful servants”. You say all of the bible is true and of God. The question I ask is a biblical one because the passage is found therein.- Deu 22:28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.So I ask again in light of this passage: is it OK for your daughter to be raped and then allow the rapist to marry your daughter after paying you 50 shekels?
Oh how you have fallen.You are starting to sound like the accuser now.
KJ, I am sure that Satan asks these types of questions or at least fills people's minds with such.
When you came here you had faith, but you started to doubt the messiah by listening to certain people. From there you denied the messiah but not the Old Testament. Now you deny that too. From there you are now asking questions in such a way as to show no respect for God or man. All I can say is that you are a lesson as to what can happen when you start to doubt. How much further can you go? Perhaps persecution of those who follow the way? Maybe you are already there?
Are you any different to the Pharisees or the Romans who persecuted Christians?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2008,04:33) Quote (kejonn @ Mar. 15 2008,21:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 14 2008,22:41) Hi KJ,
Your should address criticisms of scripture to the Author,
and not His servants,
if you dare.
Already have. Never got an answer so now I'm asking one of his “faithful servants”. You say all of the bible is true and of God. The question I ask is a biblical one because the passage is found therein.- Deu 22:28 “If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
Deu 22:29 then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.So I ask again in light of this passage: is it OK for your daughter to be raped and then allow the rapist to marry your daughter after paying you 50 shekels?
Oh how you have fallen.You are starting to sound like the accuser now.
KJ, I am sure that Satan asks these types of questions or at least fills people's minds with such.
When you came here you had faith, but you started to doubt the messiah by listening to certain people. From there you denied the messiah but not the Old Testament. Now you deny that too. From there you are now asking questions in such a way as to show no respect for God or man. All I can say is that you are a lesson as to what can happen when you start to doubt. How much further can you go? Perhaps persecution of those who follow the way? Maybe you are already there?
Are you any different to the Pharisees or the Romans who persecuted Christians?
t8, if you are going to address my supposed “fallen state”, I note you do so to evade the subject. Address the verses I listed, not me.You say I have “fallen”, when the truth is I've come to accept a view of God that places Him at a morally superior level to man. The bible does not do that beyond saying He is — the examples of what He “inspired” shows that the God of the bible is just another man, with all of the emotions of a man.
So you answer the question t8: if you had a daughter and a man raped her, would you accept 50 shekels from him as restitution and then force your daughter to marry the rapist?
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2008,04:33) Oh how you have fallen.
Fallen from what? Fallen from believing something that has more issues than answers? I note that you or Nick (or many others) rarely ever address the actual scriptural problems but rather seem to focus on the person who brings these things to light.Quote You are starting to sound like the accuser now.
Have you met the “accuser”? How do you know what he sounds like?Quote KJ, I am sure that Satan asks these types of questions or at least fills people's minds with such.
If “satan” was real, perhaps. “Satan” is invention from the influence of other dualistic religions. “Satan” is just a scapegoat for people who have difficulty being moral.Quote When you came here you had faith, but you started to doubt the messiah by listening to certain people.
Wrong. I started doubting that Jesus was messiah when I started to try to find him in the OT. From there the rest was merely academic.Quote From there you denied the messiah but not the Old Testament.
That is because I did not study the Torah to try to find him. Once I saw that Jesus did not match the messianic passages, I started looking at the OT because I was curious about the Noahidic covenant. Studying the Torah also showed very many problems with the view of God from an Abrahamic perspective.Quote Now you deny that too. From there you are now asking questions in such a way as to show no respect for God or man.
You are getting just like Nick. You think that if someone questions scripture they are automatically showing no respect for God. Wrong. You just can't seem to get that I am questioning the view of God from a 7th century BCE Jewish perspective.Quote All I can say is that you are a lesson as to what can happen when you start to doubt.
Paul didn't want people to doubt because he knew his stories led to many questions. So his answer was “don't doubt”.Quote How much further can you go? Perhaps persecution of those who follow the way? Maybe you are already there?
The only issue I have with people who “follow the way” (though the “way” is different according to who you talk to) is those who think they have the corner on truth, and that all others who do not believe as they do are doomed.Quote Are you any different to the Pharisees or the Romans who persecuted Christians?
The Pharisees were misrepresented in the NT. I'm not sure about the Romans, but even Pilate was not historically as meek as the NT made him out to be. He was quite ruthless according to history.What you fail to see in the OT and NT is the other side. Who represents the Pharisees to see what they believed and felt? Who represented the various peoples that the Jews went up against? You are guilty of taking one people's version of the story and accepting that as “truth”. Would you do that in a court of law? No, yet you lower the standards when it comes to “faith”.
Oh, and I challenge you to find historic evidence outside the NT that Jews ever persecuted Christians. I can provide plenty of historic evidence that it was the other way around for hundreds of years.
Quote (t8 @ Mar. 16 2008,21:25) Quote (Stu @ Mar. 16 2008,19:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 16 2008,09:28) Hi Stu,
Really?
You know so much?
Well I do know that humans are very prone to delusion. You must know that much too. Maybe you can't see how it applies to you. That is sad, but understandable.Stuart
Actually I would love to see the expression on your face when you are seated at the judgement and giving an account of your life to God. Truly it would be better if you found the truth for yourself here and now, but one way or another you will know the truth.
I would say, in that mythical situation, that I stood up for justice against an oppressive dictator who by his own admission slaughtered between 2,000,000 and 32,000,000 human beings. I would argue that it is right to oppose prejudice against gay people and the 'free will' they exercise, and that it is immoral to stand in judgement of their free choices, usually causing as they do no damage to any other humans.If you were the celestial dictator, how would you judge me?
Stuart
Since we got off-topic (again) on another thread, I move this response here: Nick Hassan said
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 17 2008,16:59) Hi KJ,
To be of faith is not to be of great intellect or deep understanding.
Those things would seem to be more of a hindrance than a help.
This verse was of great help to me when I started the journey.Prov3
5Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
7Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
I always look forward to those who call on these verses. These were written in defense of people such as I — people who challenged what people wrote about God as being the real truth. So apologetics has been around since the beginning of religion.This is an easy cop-out because no one can fully know what God wants or thinks. Thus, why do we need to deny our God-given intellect, wisdom, and logic?
You are right that faith does not require great intellect or deep understanding. But what of those who desire such? What of those who have higher intellect than the average person? Are they supposed to stop questioning once they encounter something that does not line up? Are we to dumb ourselves down for the sake of faith?
Rather, it is a weak faith that cannot withstand human intellect. That means the faith preys on those who either have lower intellect or those who don't care to question. That is not a good faith to have IMHO.
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