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Such pains and sicknesses were not his own. Jesus came from heaven into a sick world. He lived amid suffering and pain, but he did not shun those who were ailing, either physically or spiritually. Like a caring physician, he became intimately acquainted with the suffering of those around him. Moreover, he was able to do what no ordinary human physician can do.—Luke 5:27-32.
Jesus’ enemies viewed him as the ailing one and refused to look upon him with favor. His face was ‘concealed’ from view but not because he hid his face from others. In rendering Isaiah 53:3, The New English Bible uses the phrase “a thing from which men turn away their eyes.” Jesus’ opposers found him so revolting that they, in effect, turned away from him as if he were too loathsome to look upon. They reckoned his worth at no more than the price of a slave. (Exodus 21:32; Matthew 26:14-16) They had less esteem for him than for the murderer Barabbas. (Luke 23:18-25) What more could they have done to demonstrate their low opinion of Jesus?
THIS IS A REMARKABLY PROPHECY THAT SEEMS TO BE FULFILLED PERFECTLY IN JESUS.
The Messiah carried the sicknesses of others and bore their pains.
He lifted up their burdens, so to speak, placed them on his own shoulders, and carried them. And since sickness and pain are consequences of mankind’s sinful state, the Messiah carried the sins of others. Many did not understand the reason for his suffering and believed that God was punishing him, plaguing him with a loathsome disease. The Messiah’s suffering culminated in his being pierced, crushed, and wounded—strong words that denote a violent and painful death. But his death has atoning power; it provides the basis for recovering those who wander about in error and sin, helping them to find peace with God.
How did Jesus bear the suffering of others? The Gospel of Matthew, quoting Isaiah 53:4, says: “People brought him many demon-possessed persons; and he expelled the spirits with a word, and he cured all who were faring badly; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: ‘He himself took our sicknesses and carried our diseases.’” (Matthew 8:16, 17) By curing those who came to him with various diseases, Jesus, in effect, took their suffering upon himself. And such healings drew on his vitality. (Luke 8:43-48)
Yet, to many it seemed that Jesus was “plagued” by God. After all, he suffered at the instigation of respected religious leaders. Remember, though, that he did not suffer on account of any sins of his own. “Christ suffered for you,” says Peter, “leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth. He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And ‘by his stripes you were healed.’” (1 Peter 2:21, 22, 24)Truly remarkable!
Quote he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He most certainly opened his mouth. Go back and read the accounts of his trial.–tow
You need to study harder. When being accused, he made no attempt to save himself. He remained silent. He didn't open his mouth.
EXACTLY AS IT SAYS, HE WAS LETTING HIMSELF BE AFFLICTED, by not opening his mouth.
Again, simply remarkable.!
Quote Truly? Part of the Christian bible says Jesus raised himself. No, it says God raised him. It doesn't say “Jesus raised himself.” If it does, please show me.
Quote The NWT has got to be the worst translation out there. Actually, a couple years ago, this guy who teaches greek wrote a book on the 9 most widely used Bibles. He counted the NWT as the best. He uses our Interlinear translation to teach Greek to his students. I think his name is Jason debuhn.
His credentials if it matters: (He is a Greek scholar and Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion Northern Arizona University. He holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, and M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington. He is the author of many articles in the areas of Biblical Studies and Manichaean Studies, and of the book, The Manichaean Body: In Discipline and Ritual (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2000), winner of the “Best First Book” prize from the American Academy of Religion.)
Anyway, the word in question “stroke” has a footnote behind it, saying:
“He came to be stricken to the death,” by a correction of M in agreement with LXX.
(That's the septuagint, the LXX)Quote He was buried in an unused tomb so how could he be be buried with wicked people? Well two robbers were impaled with him. I'm sure they'd be buried somewhere.
Since he was impaled between two evildoers, in a sense his burial place was with the wicked ones. (Luke 23:33) However, after Jesus died, Joseph, a wealthy man from Arimathea, mustered up the courage to ask Pilate for permission to take down Jesus’ body and bury it. Along with Nicodemus, Joseph prepared the body for burial and then placed it in a newly excavated tomb that belonged to him. (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42) So Jesus’ burial place was also with the rich class.
: “He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.” (Isaiah 53:9)
Quote Quote
and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.”No violence? He sure spoke of it.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.–towWHERE IS THE VIOLENCE? This scripture is clearly NOT talking about violence. It's talking about division. A sword, (an allegory if you will) [I'm laughing hysterically right now] can stand for something that causes division (as it's something that cuts things in pieces.)
Anyway, it's obvious there's no violence at all in that scripture. Again, you're stretching and reaching. It's quite sad.
Quote All of the suffering servant passages in Isaiah are about Israel. Is 53 is not a messianic passage. Well, just as you have been shown wrong (and very obviously wrong I might add) on all of the above statements, you are clearly wrong on this as well.
THIS IS A MESSIANIC PROPHECY. And, remarkably, it fits Jesus perfectly.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an Anti-Christ.
2John1:8 Look to yourself's, that we do not loose those things we worked for, that we may receivea full reward.
2 John 1:9 Whoever trensgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both, the Father and the Son.
2 John 1:10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM INTO YOUR HOUSE NOR GREET HIM.
2 John 1:11 For He who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
I hope and pray that we will follow John's advice.
Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:03) Quote he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He most certainly opened his mouth. Go back and read the accounts of his trial.–tow
You need to study harder. When being accused, he made no attempt to save himself. He remained silent. He didn't open his mouth.
EXACTLY AS IT SAYS, HE WAS LETTING HIMSELF BE AFFLICTED, by not opening his mouth.
Again, simply remarkable.!
Where would you like me to show where he opened his mouth? Trial or on the cross?Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:15) Quote Quote
and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.”No violence? He sure spoke of it.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.–towWHERE IS THE VIOLENCE? This scripture is clearly NOT talking about violence. It's talking about division. A sword, (an allegory if you will) [I'm laughing hysterically right now] can stand for something that causes division (as it's something that cuts things in pieces.)
Anyway, it's obvious there's no violence at all in that scripture. Again, you're stretching and reaching. It's quite sad.
Turning family members against one another is not violence? Telling his disciples to buy swords is not violence? Driving people out of the temple with a whip is not violence?Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:16) Quote All of the suffering servant passages in Isaiah are about Israel. Is 53 is not a messianic passage. Well, just as you have been shown wrong (and very obviously wrong I might add) on all of the above statements, you are clearly wrong on this as well.
THIS IS A MESSIANIC PROPHECY. And, remarkably, it fits Jesus perfectly.
Please show me in Isaiah who is called G-d's servant. Here, I'll help you.======================================
Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen:
Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.
Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me.
Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.
Isa 49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
======================================Now that you know who YHVH's servant is (Jacob aka Israel) here is the verse leading to the context of the end of Is 52 and all of 53:
======================================
Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
======================================Who is YHVH's servant according to Isaiah? I don't see any Moshiach in Isaiah but I do see YHVH's servant, Israel.
Perhaps its time to go back to vacation bible school to learn how to read the bible in context? You have proved nothing other than you don't know how to see anything but Jesus in everything you read in your 'old testament'. Take off the Christian glasses and study objectively.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,19:54) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 22 2007,15:38) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2007,16:44) ISAIAH 53:3
“He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.”Tow, I wonder how this fits in with your thinking?
I already showed you in another post. Jews have been one of the most hated people in world history. But Jesus was said to have attracted many people. How then would this fit Jesus? If thousands came to hear him he certainly was not avoided.
Was Jesus Christ really despised and avoided by men? Indeed, he was! Self-righteous religious leaders and their followers viewed him as the vilest of humans. They called him a friend of tax collectors and harlots. (Luke 7:34, 37-39) They spit in his face. They hit him with their fists and reviled him. They sneered and jeered at him. (Matthew 26:67) Influenced by these enemies of truth, Jesus’ “own people did not take him in.”—John 1:10, 11.But according to your bible more people sought him out than avoided him. Plus according to your bible they did not avoid him but rebuked him. There is a big difference and none of the verses you listed say anything about avoiding him. So we do not see where anyone actually ever avoided him. In fact, we DO see that he often avoided other people. Hmmm.
Quote You'll notice it doesn't say everyone despised him. It does show that remarkably, the Messiah, the one who would do so much was despised by the very people who should have recognized him, the ones who were supposed to know the law. Despising does not automatically lead to avoiding. No verses say he was avoided but that he was the one doing the avoiding.
Quote Jesus was despised by some simply because he did not have the status or prominence of the leaders of his day. If he was all your bible says he was than they avoided him because they knew the law and Jesus was railing against it.
Quote People in Jesus’ hometown refused to acknowledge that this “carpenter’s son” manifested such wisdom and performed such powerful works. Strange that even his own family was against him when the angels supposedly revealed to his parents that he was the son of G-d and the savior. Maybe they forgot?
Quote May we not make the same mistake. Yes, many did accept him. Most, did not. Most rejected him. Remember that whole killing him thing? So you can't say he wasn't hated by many. Yes, some did put faith in him. The majority did not.
Hated is not avoided.
Quote Most, as this prophetic scripture says, “held him of no account.” And this, is just as you, tow, have repeatedly said. You've repeatedly said that those “historians” didn't write about him because he wasn't worth writing about, that he wasn't viewed as noteworthy. Well, it is just as fortold!
Where? It says he was avoided, which he was not, not that he was unworthy of notice.
Quote You try to make it seem as though everyone loved him. Yet odd that they put him to death then, isn't it? I do? Where? I think you ate too much turkey today. Or maybe you've already gotten into the eggnog for Christmas.
Quote This scripture is undeniably true of Jesus. So far, therefore, we have one scripture that matches him perfectly. Its funny how even you, without trying to, have made a case for him.
david
What scripture? I think you are deluding yourself if you think this matches Jesus at all. Can you pass me whatever you happen to be smoking?Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,19:57) Quote Who despised him? Seems over 2 billion people believe in him. Silly rabbit. Many on here despise you. But does that not mean many more somewhere else do not love you?
You are very illogical. There is no denying that ““He was despised.” And there is no denying that many loved him.
Odd, for someone who was the messiah, don't you think. Yet, remarkably true.
Yes many here despise me because they don't like that I bring truth that crumbles their faith. So be it. I guess I should run away and allow them to worship their false idols in peace.But to say he was despised according to your own bible is false. Only a handful of people despised him according to your bible. Remember that people from 20+ surrounding cities came to hear him and be healed by him. Hardly sounds like a despised person.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,19:58) Quote When did Jesus 'carry' a sickness? He supposedly cured sickness but never carried any. And what do you think it means to carry someone's sickness?
Again, this is a strong case for Jesus.
To 'carry' anything would be to take it upon one's self. He never took any sickness upon himself, he cured them. Plonk.Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:05) Quote Truly? Part of the Christian bible says Jesus raised himself. No, it says God raised him. It doesn't say “Jesus raised himself.” If it does, please show me.
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.Seems Jesus said he would do it. Guess he is 'god the father' them or he was lying. Wouldn't be the first time he lied.
Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:09) Quote The NWT has got to be the worst translation out there. Actually, a couple years ago, this guy who teaches greek wrote a book on the 9 most widely used Bibles. He counted the NWT as the best. He uses our Interlinear translation to teach Greek to his students. I think his name is Jason debuhn.
Wow it has one supporter. What about Hebrew? No supporters?
Quote His credentials if it matters: (He is a Greek scholar and Associate Professor of Religious Studies Department of Humanities, Arts, and Religion Northern Arizona University. He holds a B.A. in Religious studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, and M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins from Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in the Comparative Study of Religions from Indiana University, Bloomington. He is the author of many articles in the areas of Biblical Studies and Manichaean Studies, and of the book, The Manichaean Body: In Discipline and Ritual (Baltimore: The Johns Hopkins University Press, 2000), winner of the “Best First Book” prize from the American Academy of Religion.) What about the Hebrew portion, your 'old testament'?
Quote Anyway, the word in question “stroke” has a footnote behind it, saying:
“He came to be stricken to the death,” by a correction of M in agreement with LXX.
(That's the septuagint, the LXX)
So did Jesus have a stroke then?Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,20:12) Quote He was buried in an unused tomb so how could he be be buried with wicked people? Well two robbers were impaled with him. I'm sure they'd be buried somewhere.
But not with him unless Joseph took them and buried them with Jesus. Do I sense more apologetics?
Quote Since he was impaled between two evildoers, in a sense his burial place was with the wicked ones. (Luke 23:33) Sorry but burying is what happens after you die. You know, in a tomb or in the ground?
Quote However, after Jesus died, Joseph, a wealthy man from Arimathea, mustered up the courage to ask Pilate for permission to take down Jesus’ body and bury it. Along with Nicodemus, Joseph prepared the body for burial and then placed it in a newly excavated tomb that belonged to him. (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42) So Jesus’ burial place was also with the rich class. No the tomb had not been used so he was not buried with rich people.
Quote : “He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.” (Isaiah 53:9)
Oh well maybe you can make a case somewhere else? Check out Hindu scriptures you might find something there. Jesus has some similarities with Krishna.Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 23 2007,14:46) Quote (david @ Nov. 22 2007,19:54) Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 22 2007,15:38) Quote (david @ Nov. 21 2007,16:44) ISAIAH 53:3
“He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.”Tow, I wonder how this fits in with your thinking?
I already showed you in another post. Jews have been one of the most hated people in world history. But Jesus was said to have attracted many people. How then would this fit Jesus? If thousands came to hear him he certainly was not avoided.
Was Jesus Christ really despised and avoided by men? Indeed, he was! Self-righteous religious leaders and their followers viewed him as the vilest of humans. They called him a friend of tax collectors and harlots. (Luke 7:34, 37-39) They spit in his face. They hit him with their fists and reviled him. They sneered and jeered at him. (Matthew 26:67) Influenced by these enemies of truth, Jesus’ “own people did not take him in.”—John 1:10, 11.But according to your bible more people sought him out than avoided him. Plus according to your bible they did not avoid him but rebuked him. There is a big difference and none of the verses you listed say anything about avoiding him. So we do not see where anyone actually ever avoided him. In fact, we DO see that he often avoided other people. Hmmm.
Quote You'll notice it doesn't say everyone despised him. It does show that remarkably, the Messiah, the one who would do so much was despised by the very people who should have recognized him, the ones who were supposed to know the law. Despising does not automatically lead to avoiding. No verses say he was avoided but that he was the one doing the avoiding.
Quote Jesus was despised by some simply because he did not have the status or prominence of the leaders of his day. If he was all your bible says he was than they avoided him because they knew the law and Jesus was railing against it.
Quote People in Jesus’ hometown refused to acknowledge that this “carpenter’s son” manifested such wisdom and performed such powerful works. Strange that even his own family was against him when the angels supposedly revealed to his parents that he was the son of G-d and the savior. Maybe they forgot?
Quote May we not make the same mistake. Yes, many did accept him. Most, did not. Most rejected him. Remember that whole killing him thing? So you can't say he wasn't hated by many. Yes, some did put faith in him. The majority did not.
Hated is not avoided.
Quote Most, as this prophetic scripture says, “held him of no account.” And this, is just as you, tow, have repeatedly said. You've repeatedly said that those “historians” didn't write about him because he wasn't worth writing about, that he wasn't viewed as noteworthy. Well, it is just as fortold!
Where? It says he was avoided, which he was not, not that he was unworthy of notice.
Quote You try to make it seem as though everyone loved him. Yet odd that they put him to death then, isn't it? I do? Where? I think you ate too much turkey today. Or maybe you've already gotten into the eggnog for Christmas.
Quote This scripture is undeniably true of Jesus. So far, therefore, we have one scripture that matches him perfectly. Its funny how even you, without trying to, have made a case for him.
david
What scripture? I think you are deluding yourself if you think this matches Jesus at all. Can you pass me whatever you happen to be smoking?
TowMost translations render the word “rejected” not “avoided”.
The Hebrew word is “chadel”, which means;
rejected, forbearing, transient, fleeting, lacking
It comes from the root word “chadal”, which has the sense of one forsaken.
Unfortunatly for David, the NWT has not truly rendered this word correctly.
Yeshua truly was rejected and forsaken by most. Few remained with him until the end of his natural life, and even the eleven forsook him at the hands of the soldiers.
Yeshua is still rejected by most today.
Isa 53:3 truly is a prohesy that was fulfilled by Yeshua.
You say prove it.
Christians can not “prove” this to be true no more than you can “prove” it to be false.
Heres something for you to consider.
Even though Yeshua is rejected by most, yet, Yeshua is claimed by millions to be alive in them by his spirit everyday. Millions after his death untill now attest to his ressurection and that he lives in them, and that he has litterally changed their lives, and that they follow his voice that speaks to them daily.
Do you know of any man in history that has this kind of testimony and following, or who has had more influence and impact in the history of man since the first century?
One that is claimed to litterally live in the hearts of his followers, speaking to them and changing their lives. What figure in history is like that today?
So Dont flatter yourself. You havent shaken a true believers faith at all. However, maybe you do serve a purpose.
Maybe God would use your unbelieving heart to seperate the true believers from the doubting and the professing ones, or those who are sitting on the fence and even questioning that Yeshua is the Messiah.
Peter gives us a wonderfu
l prophecy Yeshua fulfilled after his death.Isa 8:14 NASB
And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.1 Peter 2:7 NASB
This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS (Israel) REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,”
8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they “stumble” because they are “disobedient” to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.Remember Peter was the preacher to the Jews. So he was not anti-semetic.
YHWY is simply speaking through him saying no matter how much truth some may have, they still will not believe.
If those were “appointed” to stumble —- what's the point of even trying? Are certain ones “appointed” to be disobedient?
Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 23 2007,19:58) If those were “appointed” to stumble —- what's the point of even trying? Are certain ones “appointed” to be disobedient?
Hi Not3,
The point of trying is that some were appointed to stumble. and to be disobedient.
But no where does it say that this was to be their lot forever.Bless you for questioning.
Tim
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