- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Combine the monotheism of the Israelites with pagan mythologies and you have Christianity as we know it today. I really don't argue this. It is largely corrupted, as he fortold.
Quote Apollonius Persius Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus Paterculus Valerius Maximus
PausaniasAwkward.
Remember that list I kept putting up, of the supposed “scholars.” It is largely the same list–85% the same.
Let me re-fresh your memory:
Quote # Martial — this was a writer of poetry and satire also. How would Jesus find a place here?
# Arrian — this guy lived in the second century, and wrote works concerned with Alexander the Great! That's 300 years before Jesus, quite a stretch for a mention! (“Alexander defeated the Persians. By the way, this has nothing to do with Jesus, who lived 300 years later.”)
# Petronius — this was a writer of a novel called the Satyricon. Bartleby adds: “Among the surviving fragments the most complete and valuable section is the Cena Trimalchionis (Trimalchio's Dinner), presenting a humorous episode of vulgar display on the part of a man whose great wealth is newly acquired.” Maybe Jesus could have served the main course or the wine!
# Dion Prusaeus — this guy was an orator, a specialist in speaking skills. Do books on public speaking today go off topic to mention Jesus?
# Paterculus — Authored an amateurish history of Rome. Paterculus was a retired army officer of Tiberius. He published in 30 A.D., just when Jesus was getting started in His ministry. Jesus never set foot in Rome, so it is hard to see where he would fit in this guy's works.
# Appian — a Roman historian of the second century who wrote a history of Roman conquests from the founding of Rome to Trajan; only about half of his books have survived fully intact. Again, Jesus didn't lead any Roman armies, so where would he fit here?
# Theon of Smyrna — a mathematician and astronomer who wrote a “handbook for philosophy students to show how prime numbers, geometrical numbers such as squares, progressions, music and astronomy are interrelated.” Maybe Theon could have counted the 5000 people fed fishes and loaves?
# Phlegon
# Persius — we have only a few lines from this fellow, who was a satirist who wrote six plays that we know of. Like the previous satirists, there is no reason for Jesus to be mentioned.
# Plutarch — this fellow wrote a large number of essays and mini-biographies. He lived until around 120 AD and of all the people on this list other than Philo and Justus, would have been the likeliest to mention Jesus. However, in light of the considerations noted above, and the bigotry of Romans towards superstitious peoples like the Jews and Egyptians, it seems unlikely that Plutarch would have put Jesus in his roster of Greco-Roman heroes.
# Justus
# Apollonius — Bartleby lists over a half dozen men with this name; it is not clear which one Remsberg refers to, so I cannot comment. The closest found by our Research Assistant is a grammarian and linguist from the 2nd century.
# Pliny the Younger
# Tacitus
# Quintillian — this fellow was a writer on oratory and rhetoric. Again, where is there room for mentioning Jesus, in what was essentially a how-to manual of public speaking?
# Lucanus — Seneca's nephew, all we have by him is one poem and some books recording the civil war between Pompey and Caesar. Where should Jesus have been worked into it?
# Epictetus — Bartleby reports that this guy wrote nothing — all his teachings were set down by a disciple!
# Silius Italicus — this guy was a poet who wrote a big poem about the second Punic War. Jesus was there, of course, serving in the chow tents…?
# Statius — this guy was a poet who wrote the Thebaid, about the Seven against Thebes, the Achilleid, a life of Achilles, and a collection of poems called the Silvae. I see plenty of reason to mention Jesus, don't you?
# Ptolemy — another astronomer and mathematician who lived in the second century. I might suppose some skeptics want a mention of the Star of Bethlehem, but if as I suppose it was mostly a natural phenomenon interpreted by the magi astrologically, Ptolemy may have mentioned it, but would hardly have connected it to Jesus — even if he knew that connection Christians made, which he would have dismissed as superstitious nonsense; it would need to be shown that Ptolemy also had an interest in things like astrology and omens from other nations.
# Hermogones — the only person I have found by this name was a second-century Stoic painter whose material was addressed by Tertullian. It is not clear if this is who Remsberg refers to, so I will have to leave this one alone for now.
# Valerius Maximus — wrote a book of anecdotes for orators around 30 AD. In other words, the ancient equivalent to one of those desktop Dilbert calendars. Where does Jesus belong in this?
# Pompon Mela — Tekton Research Assistant “Punkish” found this one for us; the problem was that Remsberg didn't give the full name. Pomponius Mela was a Roman geographer from Spain and would have no reason to mention Jesus.
# Quintius Curtus — this fellow wrote a history of Alexander the Great — again, where would Jesus fit into this?
# Lucian
# Pausanias — a Greek traveler and geographer of the second century who wrote a ten-volume work called Descriptions of Greece. Check your travel guidebooks for Greece for mentions of Jewish miracle workers in a different country!
# Valerius Flaccus — a poet of the first century who wrote a work called the Argonautica. Does anyone want to explain where Jesus fits into this one?
# Florus Lucius — Tekton Research Assistant “Punkish” has found this to be a Roman historian who was interested in dates prior to the birth of Christ. No help here for Remsberg.
# Favorinus — a skeptical philosopher of the second century who wrote works of rhetoric. As with the other such works above, no reason to mention Jesus here.
# Phaedrus — this fellow was an author of fables (like Aesop's). He would no more mention Jesus than would the Grimm Brothers.
# Damis — this is the guy who wrote the bio of Apollonius of Tyana — he lived in the second century and doesn't mention Jesus, most likely because he has his own man to promote!
# Aulus Gellius — a second-century lawyer who put together collection of essays on law, antiquities, and various other subjects. Sounds like a nice place to mention Jesus!
# Columella — this fellow wrote about agriculture and trees! No comment needed!
# Dio Chrysostom — an orator of the second century who wrote eighty orations on literary, political, and philosophical subjects. I see no room for a mention of Jesus here.
# Lysias —
the only person by this name in Bartleby lived in 400-300 BC! I'll have to look into this one further.
# Appion of Alexandria — a second-century historian who wrote a history of Rome in 24 books. Again, Jesus had no part in Rome's history, so why should he be mentioned here?
# Josephus
# Philo
# Seneca — this teacher of Nero's wrote a number of personal epistles and other works. Seneca may have conceivably had reason to refer to Jesus. But considering his personal troubles with Nero, it is doubtful that he would have had the interest or the time to do any work on the subject, and none of the works he wrote would have had the occasion to include Jesus. Here is a list of his writings from Bartleby.com:
His Epistolae morales ad Lucilium are essays on ethics written for his friend Lucilius Junior, to whom he also addressed Quaestiones naturales, philosophical-rather than scientific-remarks about natural phenomena. The so-called Dialogi of Seneca include essays on anger, on divine providence, on Stoic impassivity, and on peace of soul. Other moral essays have also survived, notably De elementia, on the duty of a ruler to be merciful, and De beneficiis, on the award and reception of favors. The Apocolocyntosis is a satire on the apotheosis of Claudius. The most influential of his works, at least in so far as European literature is concerned, were his tragedies. It is generally agreed that his plays were written for recitation and not for stage performance. Nine plays, based on Greek models, are accepted as his-Hercules Furens, Medea, Troades, Phaedra, Agamemnon, Oedipus, Hercules Oetaeus, Phoenissae, and Thyestes. A tenth, Octavia, is now ascribed to a later imitator.
# Pliny the Elder — Pliny the Elder was a writer on science and morality issues; none of his writings would have had a reason to refer to Jesus.
# Suetonius
# Juvenal — this was a writer of satires. Again, from Bartleby:
He is known chiefly for his 16 satires, which contain a vivid representation of life in Rome under the empire. They were probably written in the years between A.D. 100 and A.D. 128. The biting tone of his diatribes has seldom been equaled. From the stern point of view of the older Roman standards he powerfully denounces the lax and luxurious society, the brutal tyranny, the affectations and immorality of women, and the criminal excesses of Romans as he saw them, especially in his earlier years.I suppose shakespear was a scholar. Maybe Einstein. Did they write about the events of their time? If they were alive back then, they'd be in your list too.
You mentioned Valerius for example. He wrote a book of anecdotes for orators around 30 AD. In other words, the ancient equivalent to one of those desktop Dilbert calendars. Where does Jesus belong in this?
You mention Quintius Curtus (an actual historian–of ALEXANDER THE GREAT) — again, where would Jesus fit into this?
Or Martial — this was a writer of poetry and satire. How would Jesus find a place here?
The people (I use the term losely) who made your list clearly had an agenda.
You asked which historian of Moses time should have written about the 2,000,000 Israelites. I again ask: Which HISTORIANS of Jesus time had any reason to write about him?
Quote You continue to prove a point you do not wish to prove. And that is, if Jesus was to be the savior of mankind his presence would rock the world.
Remember when you said I made a case for a suffering messiah? If everyone knew he was messiah, who would make him suffer?When the messiah comes, what will he do, in your opinion? What will happen to people?
The obvious: People who write cookbooks or poetry are not and should not be expected to write a history on George Bush or on Gandi.
What? Martha steward didn't write anything about Gandi? She's written 58 books. She's famous. Yet, she wrote nothing about Gandi? ? He must not have existed.
This is flawed thinking.
Why would any of the people you quoted from this website:
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.htmlhave any reason to write about Jesus?
Quote David, Read Ezekiel 37-48. That will give you a glimpse f what the world will be like when the true Moshiach comes.
My wishy washy friend, could you narrow it down a bit?
Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,15:52) Quote David, Read Ezekiel 37-48. That will give you a glimpse f what the world will be like when the true Moshiach comes.
My wishy washy friend, could you narrow it down a bit?
How am I wishy washy? I have been studying with Jewish people to try gain a greater understanding of Torah and I must agree that much of what Yeshua did not do is hurting the cause of Christianity. I believe also that the early church took my savior's works and corrupted them. I wish I could have walked with him to know the truth but I cannot. I'm afraid that the Roman church has forever ruined the 100% true message of Yeshua Ha Moshiach.Quote I think if you read Ez 37+ you will see what he means. Quote Read Ezekiel 37-48. That will give you a glimpse f what the world will be like when the true Moshiach comes. I'm curious as to why the change?
And, just for the record, you're stating Jesus is an imposter.
Quote I must agree that much of what Yeshua did not do is hurting the cause of Christianity. What is the “cause of Christianity” in your mind?
Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,15:58) Quote I must agree that much of what Yeshua did not do is hurting the cause of Christianity. What is the “cause of Christianity” in your mind?
The “cause of Christianity” is that the Yeshua was all that was said of him in the New Testament. With the obvious tampering the RCC has done with scripture one cannot not be certain anymore. What do we know is original and what is not? Only the Spirit within us can guide at this point.Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,15:57) Quote I think if you read Ez 37+ you will see what he means. Quote Read Ezekiel 37-48. That will give you a glimpse f what the world will be like when the true Moshiach comes. I'm curious as to why the change?
And, just for the record, you're stating Jesus is an imposter.
The difference is that I believe that the things found in Ez 37-48 will take place when he returns. Since he did not do them the first time there can be no other choice — can there?Hi KJ:
Please explain what you mean by the following statement:
Quote I have been studying with Jewish people to try gain a greater understanding of Torah and I must agree that much of what Yeshua did not do is hurting the cause of Christianity. He obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. It sounds like to me that God was satisfied with what he did.
What I mean is that he did not fulfill the prophecies of the final Messiah before his death and subsequent ascension. Because there is nothing in the Tanach about a second coming this keeps Jewish people from believing in him. Sometimes I wonder myself if Yeshua was not meant to be the final Messiah but a spiritual savior instead? Someone totally different than the Jews were expecting because they do not focus on the afterlife like Christians do. So they expect someone to deliver them into peace here on earth.
While I study the Torah — and by extension, the Tanach — I hope I will learn more of who Yeshua really is so that I can share that with my new Jewish friends and my existing Christian brethren.
Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 12 2007,08:57) I'm afraid that the Roman church has forever ruined the 100% true message of Yeshua Ha Moshiach.
Does that also include these words?Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.Yes the Latter finish Here is with-out mention of the flesh body of Jesus to praise…Hsa 3:5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.
Also Paul will Say and return too.David ..who fufills all of Gods will..Act 13:22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the [son] of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.
charity
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 12 2007,14:13) Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 12 2007,08:57) I'm afraid that the Roman church has forever ruined the 100% true message of Yeshua Ha Moshiach.
Does that also include these words?Matthew 16:18
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
Dose it look Like he has…?Somethings is not right t8
we are not living in a earth of a overcomeer church…because of the message being obstructed? the truth will.. lend to unity without failure…..It will do justice for the those who have asked..for it to be done
What are you thinking?Quote (kejonn @ Nov. 12 2007,14:01) What I mean is that he did not fulfill the prophecies of the final Messiah before his death and subsequent ascension. Because there is nothing in the Tanach about a second coming this keeps Jewish people from believing in him. Sometimes I wonder myself if Yeshua was not meant to be the final Messiah but a spiritual savior instead? Someone totally different than the Jews were expecting because they do not focus on the afterlife like Christians do. So they expect someone to deliver them into peace here on earth. While I study the Torah — and by extension, the Tanach — I hope I will learn more of who Yeshua really is so that I can share that with my new Jewish friends and my existing Christian brethren.
Hi KJ:Jesus is the one and only true Messiah. There will be a false Messiah which will be the delusion that God has promised those who have not believed the love of the truth.
Relative to the second coming what about Daniel 7:13?
Quote יג חָזֵה הֲוֵית, בְּחֶזְוֵי לֵילְיָא, וַאֲרוּ עִם-עֲנָנֵי שְׁמַיָּא, כְּבַר אֱנָשׁ אָתֵה הֲוָא; וְעַד-עַתִּיק יוֹמַיָּא מְטָה, וּקְדָמוֹהִי הַקְרְבוּהִי. 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of days, and he was brought near before Him. And I agree with t8 relative to the gates of Hades not prevailing against the church of the living God despite what the Roman Catholic church has done.
Quote Rev Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. 5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. 6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. 7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. 8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Quote Hebrews 3
1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 2 Who was faithful to him that appointed F8 him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 3 For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after; 6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. 11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Just Interesting…Seek Him that “Maketh the seven stars” that turn the shadow of death into morning, reverse his will mission on earth…The House of Joseph, forsake his way
Some how we are “all going to be “found guilty” of vanities?
Judgement turned to worm wood.Amo 5:6 Seek the LORD, and ye shall live; lest he break out like fire in the house of Joseph, and devour [it], and [there be] none to quench [it] in Bethel.
Amo 5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
Amo 5:8 [Seek him] that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD [is] his name:
Amo 5:9 That strengtheneth the spoiled against the strong, so that the spoiled shall come against the fortress.
Amo 5:10 ¶ They hate him that rebuketh in the gate, and they abhor him that speaketh uprightly.
Amo 5:11 Forasmuch therefore as your treading [is] upon the poor, and ye take from him burdens of wheat: ye have built houses of hewn stone, but ye shall not dwell in them; ye have planted pleasant vineyards, but ye shall not drink wine of them. Amo 5:12 For I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins: they afflict the just, they take a bribe, and they turn aside the poor in the gate [from their right].
Amo 5:13 Therefore the prudent shall keep silence in that time; for it [is] an evil time. Amo 5:14 ¶ Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken. Amo 5:15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph. Amo 5:16 ¶ Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the Lord, saith thus; Wailing [shall be] in all streets; and they shall say in all the highways, Alas! alas! and they shall call the husbandman to mourning, and such as are skilful of lamentation to wailing.Amo 5:17 And in all vineyards [shall be] wailing: for I will pass through thee, saith the LORD.
Amo 5:18 ¶ Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end [is] it for you? the day of the LORD [is] darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amo 5:20 [Shall] not the day of the LORD [be] darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Amo 5:21 ¶ I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies.
Amo 5:22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept [them]: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts.
Amo 5:23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Amo 5:24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream.
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2007,08:50) The obvious: People who write cookbooks or poetry are not and should not be expected to write a history on George Bush or on Gandi. What? Martha steward didn't write anything about Gandi? She's written 58 books. She's famous. Yet, she wrote nothing about Gandi? ? He must not have existed.
This is flawed thinking.
Why would any of the people you quoted from this website:
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.htmlhave any reason to write about Jesus?
The even more obvious: Despite the many people who have not written about Ganghi or Bush, countless people HAVE done so. We have a long list of diarists / chroniclers who did not write about Jesus, and it gets longer by the day it seems, still we don't have the name of anyone (not even in the gospels) who unequivocally put pen to paper and wrote “this is my eyewitness testimony of Jesus of Nazareth; I heard him say this / do this / perform this miracle…”. Not one. A long list of non-chroniclers does not disprove his existence, but the longer it gets, the less likely he was.Stuart
Quote (david @ Nov. 11 2007,15:50) The obvious: People who write cookbooks or poetry are not and should not be expected to write a history on George Bush or on Gandi. What? Martha steward didn't write anything about Gandi? She's written 58 books. She's famous. Yet, she wrote nothing about Gandi? ? He must not have existed.
This is flawed thinking.
Why would any of the people you quoted from this website:
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/nohistoricalevidenceofjesus.htmlhave any reason to write about Jesus?
That was brave. I didn't provide the link because many people on here already are faltering.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
