- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote Acts 22:3
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.Right, that's the guy. He's also mentioned here:
Acts 5:34If this Gamaliel guy was such a big guy and a great Jewish leader, (first to be called Rabban) why is his name missing from the works of historians of the day?
Some may say that “this title Rabban was retrojected onto him by the Jews as a way to honor this fake, who obviously never existed and was just a figment created to inspire Jewish persons.”LOL I am reading the Wiki now..
Did you catch this one?
Quote LOL I am reading the Wiki now.. Did you catch this one?
<a href="http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.js….amaliel
” target=”_blank”>http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.js….amaliel[/QUOTE]
Yes I have read this (for our purposes) work of fiction.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,18:01) Quote Acts 22:3
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.Right, that's the guy. He's also mentioned here:
Acts 5:34If this Gamaliel guy was such a big guy and a great Jewish leader, (first to be called Rabban) why is his name missing from the works of historians of the day?
Some may say that “this title Rabban was retrojected onto him by the Jews as a way to honor this fake, who obviously never existed and was just a figment created to inspire Jewish persons.”
Haha your efforts to take away from people trying to show that the savior of mankind should have had some record outside of the Christian bible is not working. You use the ploy of people trying of prove Gamaliel existed when time and again I've said that whether he existed or not has no bearing on our eternal life. No more than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. But Christians want us to tell us that we will go to hell if we don't believe in Jesus. That's a world of difference. If he was so important to the eternal security of all mankind he should have been recorded somewhere else but he wasn't. Face facts and just believe as you want. You're ply is a very weak one.Not sure why you quote the above. Has nothing to do with your meaningless comment.
What I have proven is that just because someone doesn't show up in the secular historical documents, doesn't mean he didn't exist.
He was preserved where God wanted it preserved–his Word, the Bible.
Quote Haha your efforts to take away from people trying to show that the savior of mankind should have had some record outside of the Christian bible is not working. My challenge was to you to prove that Gamaliel existed.
So far, if is going exactly as I suspected.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,18:01) Quote Acts 22:3
3 “I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.Right, that's the guy. He's also mentioned here:
Acts 5:34If this Gamaliel guy was such a big guy and a great Jewish leader, (first to be called Rabban) why is his name missing from the works of historians of the day?
Some may say that “this title Rabban was retrojected onto him by the Jews as a way to honor this fake, who obviously never existed and was just a figment created to inspire Jewish persons.”
I must say, Gamaliel was recorded in Jewish writings AND the GT while Jesus was only recorded in the GT. So it seems there is actually more proof that Gamaliel existed than Jesus! Thanks for reminding us.Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,19:04) Not sure why you quote the above. Has nothing to do with your meaningless comment. What I have proven is that just because someone doesn't show up in the secular historical documents, doesn't mean he didn't exist.
He was preserved where God wanted it preserved–his Word, the Bible.
Quote Haha your efforts to take away from people trying to show that the savior of mankind should have had some record outside of the Christian bible is not working. My challenge was to you to prove that Gamaliel existed.
So far, if is going exactly as I suspected.
I will prove Gamaliel existed the moment you show that belief in him is necessary to avoid hell.Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,20:03) So then, my point has been proven. Thankyou.
Yes it has. You've proved that no one must believe in Jesus for 'salvation'. Now we can all rest easier and Christians can seek the true G-d, YHVH. No man is needed as a middle-man to g-d.Quote Yes it has. You've proved that no one must believe in Jesus for 'salvation'. Well, I don't remember proving anything like that. What YOU have proved, for everyone Towshab, is that the Gamaliel, “one of the greatest teachers in the annals of Judaism” (wikipedia) has no real proof of existence.
I would say that many people, even many who did extraordinary things (some of them in the Hebrew scriptures) have little proof of existence outside scripture.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,21:19) Quote Yes it has. You've proved that no one must believe in Jesus for 'salvation'. Well, I don't remember proving anything like that. What YOU have proved, for everyone Towshab, is that the Gamaliel, “one of the greatest teachers in the annals of Judaism” (wikipedia) has no real proof of existence.
I would say that many people, even many who did extraordinary things (some of them in the Hebrew scriptures) have little proof of existence outside scripture.
I haven't even tried because it is not of importance. I don't have to believe in Gamaliel like Christians propose that I must believe in Jesus. Why you fail to see that difference shows how blinded your religion is. You say I must believe in the existence of a MAN to have eternal life which contradicts the Tanakh.I never said you have to believe in Gamaliel. I simply said you can't prove his existence. Apparently, I was right.
My argument was in response to you saying there is very little evidence outside of scripture that speaks of Jesus.
Well, the same could be said of a lot of supposedly important people, such as….”one of the greatest teachers in the annals of Judaism,” Gamaliel.
Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,22:18) I never said you have to believe in Gamaliel. I simply said you can't prove his existence. Apparently, I was right. My argument was in response to you saying there is very little evidence outside of scripture that speaks of Jesus.
Well, the same could be said of a lot of supposedly important people, such as….”one of the greatest teachers in the annals of Judaism,” Gamaliel.
What did Gamaliel do to attract the attention of thousands in his time? Did he (1) feed 5000 thousand people with a few loaves and some fish (2) attract people from 20+ cities all around him to see his miracles and hear his teaching (3) have the sky turn dark for three hours at his death (4) have dead people come to life and appear to many at his death (5) cause an earthquake at his death (6) cause Herod to kill all the children under two years old in his region at birth (7) claimed he was the living son of G-d and savior of the world?Had he done these things I'm sure Gamaliel would have attracted someones' attention just as Jesus should have.
As “one of the greatest teachers in the annals of Judaism,” who was no doubt around and on the scene much much longer than Jesus, I'm sure he could have done something to make it into the history books.
If your argument is that he did nothing special, were are the secular documents of the Hebrew prophets, and all the miracle workers of that time?
I mean, there's even less on them then Jesus.
You speak of Jesus who was busy for 3 1/2 years and who fed 5000.
Aside from the Bible, is there evidence that Moses existed?
If close to 2,000,000 Hebrews had lived in and around Goshen, would there not be pottery or some actual evidence they were there for 430 years?
If Gamaliel isn't important enough, (and I don't see how that's relevent to my actual argument) let's go with Moses.
Some would say:
“There's no evidence for him, exodus etc. One theory holds that, over decades or centuries, various groups emigrated to the holy land. Over time the history of the peoples journeys merged. Moses may have been one of the leaders of such group, may have truly lead a major group, or may be just the result of combining various stories over time.”
Hey, why not go with all the prophets.
Can you prove to me that they existed and did as is written?
(For the record, again, I'd like to say that I believe I could prove that the Hebrew scriptures are reliable and true. But that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing whether you can prove to me, to my ridiculous satisfaction, that they existed.)
david
Quote (1) feed 5000 thousand people with a few loaves and some fish (2) attract people from 20+ cities all around him to see his miracles and hear his teaching (3) have the sky turn dark for three hours at his death (4) have dead people come to life and appear to many at his death (5) cause an earthquake at his death (6) cause Herod to kill all the children under two years old in his region at birth (7) claimed he was the living son of G-d and savior of the world? –towshab.
So this is your reasons for believing that which historian would have documented him?
Which name? Who should have noted him?
Which “historian”?
# Martial — this was a writer of poetry and satire also. How would Jesus find a place here?
# Arrian — this guy lived in the second century, and wrote works concerned with Alexander the Great! That's 300 years before Jesus, quite a stretch for a mention! (“Alexander defeated the Persians. By the way, this has nothing to do with Jesus, who
lived 300 years later.”)# Petronius — this was a writer of a novel called the Satyricon. Bartleby adds: “Among the surviving fragments the most complete and valuable section is the Cena Trimalchionis (Trimalchio's Dinner), presenting a humorous episode of vulgar display on the part of a man whose great wealth is newly acquired.” Maybe Jesus could have served the main course or the wine!
# Dion Prusaeus — this guy was an orator, a specialist in speaking skills. Do books on public speaking today go off topic to mention Jesus?
# Paterculus — Authored an amateurish history of Rome. Paterculus was a retired army officer of Tiberius. He published in 30 A.D., just when Jesus was getting started in His ministry. Jesus never set foot in Rome, so it is hard to see where he would fit in this guy's works.
# Appian — a Roman historian of the second century who wrote a history of Roman conquests from the founding of Rome to Trajan; only about half of his books have survived fully intact. Again, Jesus didn't lead any Roman armies, so where would he fit here?
# Theon of Smyrna — a mathematician and astronomer who wrote a “handbook for philosophy students to show how prime numbers, geometrical numbers such as squares, progressions, music and astronomy are interrelated.” Maybe Theon could have counted the 5000 people fed fishes and loaves?
# Phlegon
# Persius — we have only a few lines from this fellow, who was a satirist who wrote six plays that we know of. Like the previous satirists, there is no reason for Jesus to be mentioned.
# Plutarch — this fellow wrote a large number of essays and mini-biographies. He lived until around 120 AD and of all the people on this list other than Philo and Justus, would have been the likeliest to mention Jesus. However, in light of the considerations noted above, and the bigotry of Romans towards superstitious peoples like the Jews and Egyptians, it seems unlikely that Plutarch would have put Jesus in his roster of Greco-Roman heroes.
# Justus
# Apollonius — Bartleby lists over a half dozen men with this name; it is not clear which one Remsberg refers to, so I cannot comment. The closest found by our Research Assistant is a grammarian and linguist from the 2nd century.
# Pliny the Younger
# Tacitus
# Quintillian — this fellow was a writer on oratory and rhetoric. Again, where is there room for mentioning Jesus, in what was essentially a how-to manual of public speaking?
# Lucanus — Seneca's nephew, all we have by him is one poem and some books recording the civil war between Pompey and Caesar. Where should Jesus have been worked into it?
# Epictetus — Bartleby reports that this guy wrote nothing — all his teachings were set down by a disciple!
# Silius Italicus — this guy was a poet who wrote a big poem about the second Punic War. Jesus was there, of course, serving in the chow tents…?
# Statius — this guy was a poet who wrote the Thebaid, about the Seven against Thebes, the Achilleid, a life of Achilles, and a collection of poems called the Silvae. I see plenty of reason to mention Jesus, don't you?
# Ptolemy — another astronomer and mathematician who lived in the second century. I might suppose some skeptics want a mention of the Star of Bethlehem, but if as I suppose it was mostly a natural phenomenon interpreted by the magi astrologically, Ptolemy may have mentioned it, but would hardly have connected it to Jesus — even if he knew that connection Christians made, which he would have dismissed as superstitious nonsense; it would need to be shown that Ptolemy also had an interest in things like astrology and omens from other nations.
# Hermogones — the only person I have found by this name was a second-century Stoic painter whose material was addressed by Tertullian. It is not clear if this is who Remsberg refers to, so I will have to leave this one alone for now.
# Valerius Maximus — wrote a book of anecdotes for orators around 30 AD. In other words, the ancient equivalent to one of those desktop Dilbert calendars. Where does Jesus belong in this?
# Pompon Mela — Tekton Research Assistant “Punkish” found this one for us; the problem was that Remsberg didn't give the full name. Pomponius Mela was a Roman geographer from Spain and would have no reason to mention Jesus.
# Quintius Curtus — this fellow wrote a history of Alexander the Great — again, where would Jesus fit into this?
# Lucian
# Pausanias — a Greek traveler and geographer of the second century who wrote a ten-volume work called Descriptions of Greece. Check your travel guidebooks for Greece for mentions of Jewish miracle workers in a different country!
# Valerius Flaccus — a poet of the first century who wrote a work called the Argonautica. Does anyone want to explain where Jesus fits into this one?
# Florus Lucius — Tekton Research Assistant “Punkish” has found this to be a Roman historian who was interested in dates prior to the birth of Christ. No help here for Remsberg.
# Favorinus — a skeptical philosopher of the second century who wrote works of rhetoric. As with the other such works above, no reason to mention Jesus here.
# Phaedrus — this fellow was an author of fables (like Aesop's). He would no more mention Jesus than would the Grimm Brothers.
# Damis — this is the guy who wrote the bio of Apollonius of Tyana — he lived in the second century and doesn't mention Jesus, most likely because he has his own man to promote!
# Aulus Gellius — a second-century lawyer who put together collection of essays on law, antiquities, and various other subjects. Sounds like a nice place to mention Jesus!
# Columella — this fellow wrote about agriculture and trees! No comment needed!
# Dio Chrysostom — an orator of the second century who wrote eighty orations on literary, political, and philosophical subjects. I see no room for a mention of Jesus here.
# Lysias — the only person by this name in Bartleby lived in 400-300 BC! I'll have to look into this one further.
# Appion of Alexandria — a second-century historian who wrote a history of Rome in 24 books. Again, Jesus had no part in Rome's history, so why should he be mentioned here?
# Josephus
# Philo
# Seneca — this teacher of Nero's wrote a number of personal epistles and other works. Seneca may have conceivably had reason to refer to Jesus. But considering his personal troubles with Nero, it is doubtful that he would have had the interest or the time to do any work on the subject, and none of the works he wrote would have had the occasion to include Jesus. Here is a list of his writings from Bartl
eby.com:
His Epistolae morales ad Lucilium are essays on ethics written for his friend Lucilius Junior, to whom he also addressed Quaestiones naturales, philosophical-rather than scientific-remarks about natural phenomena. The so-called Dialogi of Seneca include essays on anger, on divine providence, on Stoic impassivity, and on peace of soul. Other moral essays have also survived, notably De elementia, on the duty of a ruler to be merciful, and De beneficiis, on the award and reception of favors. The Apocolocyntosis is a satire on the apotheosis of Claudius. The most influential of his works, at least in so far as European literature is concerned, were his tragedies. It is generally agreed that his plays were written for recitation and not for stage performance. Nine plays, based on Greek models, are accepted as his-Hercules Furens, Medea, Troades, Phaedra, Agamemnon, Oedipus, Hercules Oetaeus, Phoenissae, and Thyestes. A tenth, Octavia, is now ascribed to a later imitator.# Pliny the Elder — Pliny the Elder was a writer on science and morality issues; none of his writings would have had a reason to refer to Jesus.
# Suetonius
# Juvenal — this was a writer of satires. Again, from Bartleby:
He is known chiefly for his 16 satires, which contain a vivid representation of life in Rome under the empire. They were probably written in the years between A.D. 100 and A.D. 128. The biting tone of his diatribes has seldom been equaled. From the stern point of view of the older Roman standards he powerfully denounces the lax and luxurious society, the brutal tyranny, the affectations and immorality of women, and the criminal excesses of Romans as he saw them, especially in his earlier years.
(http://www.tektonics.org/qt/remslist.html)Quote (david @ Nov. 10 2007,23:20) If Gamaliel isn't important enough, (and I don't see how that's relevent to my actual argument) let's go with Moses. Some would say:
“There's no evidence for him, exodus etc. One theory holds that, over decades or centuries, various groups emigrated to the holy land. Over time the history of the peoples journeys merged. Moses may have been one of the leaders of such group, may have truly lead a major group, or may be just the result of combining various stories over time.”
Hey, why not go with all the prophets.
Can you prove to me that they existed and did as is written?
(For the record, again, I'd like to say that I believe I could prove that the Hebrew scriptures are reliable and true. But that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing whether you can prove to me, to my ridiculous satisfaction, that they existed.)
david
Name some historians around in Moses time.Here is a partial list of writers and historians around in Jesus' time or shortly after
Apollonius Persius Appian Petronius
Arrian Phaedrus Aulus Gellius Philo-Judaeus
Columella Phlegon Damis Pliny the Elder
Dio Chrysostom Pliny the Younger Dion Pruseus Plutarch
Epictetus Pompon Mela Favorinus Ptolemy
Florus Lucius Quintilian Hermogones Quintius Curtius
Josephus Seneca Justus of Tiberius Silius Italicus
Juvenal Statius Lucanus Suetonius
Lucian Tacitus Lysias Theon of Smyran
Martial Valerius Flaccus Paterculus Valerius Maximus
PausaniasNone of them made a mention of Jesus although a few may have mentioned Christians. Proof of Christians is NOT proof that Jesus was the Messiah. As I've already said I believe there was a man named Jesus but his story was hijacked and turned into a legend by adding in all sorts of myths and pagan ideals such as virgin birth by a god, god incarnation, drinking blood, death-rebirth, followers feeling the presence of the person in them, etc. All of these additional things made Jesus appealing to the people in and around Rome because they believed in this stuff. Combine the monotheism of the Israelites with pagan mythologies and you have Christianity as we know it today.
David,
You continue to prove a point you do not wish to prove. And that is, if Jesus was to be the savior of mankind his presence would rock the world. The fact that he didn't speaks for itself. Jesus was a teacher who rebelled against certain Pharisees, was seen as an insurrectionist by the Romans, and was killed by the Romans for it. The gospels were written to be pro-roman by making it appear as if Pilate wanted to free Jesus but that the Jews wanted him dead. Pilate, according to all indications outside the GT was a cruel man and had to be relieved of his post because of this cruelty.
Besides this Matthew has Jesus crucified between two robbers. Thieves were not crucified.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
