Gamaliel, THE rabbi

[Towshab]

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 23 2007,17:17)

OK Tow do you believe that the SPIRIT we have is of the antiChrist? It's either you are of the antichrist OR we are?

There is no 'christ' there is Moshiach.

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So you MUST believe that WE are of the AntiChrist and that the”RE ALE” Messiah is yet to come who will (not spiritual) but physically will set His Government into place.

Can you show me otherwise using the Hebrew scriptures? He will come when and lead the world to an eternal peace. Last I looked Jesus has not led to peace.

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Luk 12:37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. To all: Please rely on that which you have found from the beginning! 1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. That which you have learned from the Spirit! You should abide in! 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Why do you never use the Hebrew scriptures to prove any points? That is where G-d tells of the real Moshiach. Giving GT verses proves nothing when you cannot prove Jesus is the Moshaich with Tanakh.

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Please consider your decision? My how things are changing in these last times! Stand up! Ken

Zec 8:23 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 23 2007,16:26)

“He was despised and was avoided by men, a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness. And there was as if the concealing of one’s face from us. He was despised, and we held him as of no account.” (Isaiah 53:3) Certain that his words will come true, Isaiah writes in the past tense, as if they had already been fulfilled. Was Jesus Christ really despised and avoided by men? Indeed, he was! Self-righteous religious leaders and their followers viewed him as the vilest of humans. They called him a friend of tax collectors and harlots. (Luke 7:34, 37-39)

And he never called them names? Sounded like 'tit-for-tat' if you ask me.

Mat 12:34 You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

Mat 23:33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

I guess it is OK if Jesus slings insults right?

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They spit in his face. They hit him with their fists and reviled him. They sneered and jeered at him. (Matthew 26:67) Influenced by these enemies of truth, Jesus’ “own people did not take him in.”—John 1:10, 11. Obviously, not everyone rejected him. But most did.

Most? He had 'thousands' come to see him at a time. He became 'famous' throughout the area (so famous no one wrote of him outside the GT). I think you need to change 'most' to 'a few' if you want to speak of the GT.

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As a perfect man, Jesus did not get sick. Yet, he was “a man meant for pains and for having acquaintance with sickness.” Such pains and sicknesses were not his own. Jesus came from heaven into a sick world. He lived amid suffering and pain, but he did not shun those who were ailing, either physically or spiritually. Like a caring physician, he became intimately acquainted with the suffering of those around him. Moreover, he was able to do what no ordinary human physician can do.—Luke 5:27-32.

That was some weak apologetics. Maybe you really believe it too.

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Nevertheless, Jesus’ enemies viewed him as the ailing one and refused to look upon him with favor. His face was ‘concealed’ from view but not because he hid his face from others. In rendering Isaiah 53:3, The New English Bible uses the phrase “a thing from which men turn away their eyes.” Jesus’ opposers found him so revolting that they, in effect, turned away from him as if he were too loathsome to look upon.

When? Show me.

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They reckoned his worth at no more than the price of a slave. (Exodus 21:32; Matthew 26:14-16)

An ox gored Jesus? I thought he was hung on a tree?

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They had less esteem for him than for the murderer Barabbas. (Luke 23:18-25) What more could they have done to demonstrate their low opinion of Jesus?

That is so bogus. There is no singular instance of Rome allowing an exchange of criminals outside the Christian bible. In one Mark, Barabbas is guilty of murder and insurrection. Insurrection was the crime that he would have been crucified for. But in John (John rarely agreed with the Synoptics in anything!) he was only a robber! Yet another Christian bible blooper.

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Jehovah’s servants today can derive much comfort from Isaiah’s words. At times, opposers may disdain faithful worshipers of Jehovah or treat them as if they were of no account. Yet, as was true with Jesus, what really matters is how Jehovah God values us. After all, even though men ‘held Jesus as of no account,’ this certainly did not change his great value in God’s eyes!

No more than any man or woman since that is all he was.

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Why did the Messiah have to suffer and die? Isaiah explains: “Truly our sicknesses were what he himself carried; and as for our pains, he bore them. But we ourselves accounted him as plagued, stricken by God and afflicted. But he was being pierced for our transgression; he was being crushed for our errors. The chastisement meant for our peace was upon him, and because of his wounds there has been a healing for us. Like sheep we have all of us wandered about; it was each one to his own way that we have turned; and Jehovah himself has caused the error of us all to meet up with that one.”—Isaiah 53:4-6.

Who ever said Jesus was plagued or strickened by God? When was he crushed?

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The Messiah carried the sicknesses of others and bore their pains. He lifted up their burdens, so to speak,

'So to speak'. Good one.

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placed them on his own shoulders, and carried them. And since sickness and pain are consequences of mankind’s sinful state, the Messiah carried the sins of others.

How? I thought he was the 'lamb of G-d' not the 'goat of G-d'.

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Many did not understand the reason for his suffering and believed that God was punishing him, plaguing him with a loathsome disease.

Really? When?

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(The Hebrew word rendered “plagued” is also used in regard to leprosy. (2 Kings 15:5) According to certain scholars, some Jews derived from Isaiah 53:4 the idea that the Messiah would be a leper. The Babylonian Talmud applies this verse to the Messiah, calling him “the leper scholar.” The Catholic Douay Version, reflecting the Latin Vulgate, renders this verse: “We have thought him as it were a leper.”)

Jesus was a leper? Where do you read that?

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The Messiah’s suffering culminated in his being pierced, crushed, and wounded—strong words that denote a violent and painful death. But his death has atoning power; it provides the basis for recovering those who wander about in error and sin, helping them to find peace with God.

When was he crushed?

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How did Jesus bear the suffering of others? The Gospel of Matthew, quoting Isaiah 53:4, says: “People brought him many demon-possessed persons; and he expelled the spirits with a word, and he cured all who were faring badly; that there might be fulfilled what was spoken through Isaiah the prophet, saying: ‘He himself took our sicknesses and carried our diseases.’”

He didn't carry anything, not even his own cross.

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(Matthew 8:16, 17) By curing those who came to him with various diseases, Jesus, in effect, took their suffering upon himself. And such healings drew on his vitality. (Luke 8:43-48)

So Jesus claims power of himself after all! And here i thought he said it was all from G-d.

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His ability to heal all kinds of ailments—physical and spiritual—proved that he was empowered to cleanse people from sin.—Matthew 9:2-8.

Only if you believe the GT.

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Yet, to many it seemed that Jesus was “plagued” by God.

Show me where.

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After all, he suffered at the instigation of respected religious leaders. Remember, though, that he did not suffer on account of any sins of his own. “Christ suffered for you,” says Peter, “leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth.

No deception?

Joh 7:8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.”
Joh 7:9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee.
Joh 7:10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private.

Lying is not deception?

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He himself bore our sins in his own body upon the stake, in order that we might be done with sins and live to righteousness. And ‘by his stripes you were healed.’” (1 Peter 2:21, 22, 24) We were all at one time lost in sin, “like sheep, going astray.” (1 Peter 2:25) Through Jesus, however, Jehovah provided redemption from our sinful state. He caused our error to “meet up with” Jesus, to rest upon him. The sinless Jesus willingly suffered the penalty for our sins. By undeservedly suffering a shameful death on a stake, he made it possible for us to be reconciled to God. Was the Messiah willing to suffer and die? Isaiah says: “He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth.” (Isaiah 53:7) On the final night of his life, Jesus could have summoned “more than twelve legions of angels” to come to his aid. But he said: “In that case, how would the Scriptures be fulfilled that it must take place this way?” (Matthew 26:53, 54) Instead, “the Lamb of God” offered no resistance. (John 1:29) When the chief priests and the older men falsely accused him before Pilate, Jesus “made no answer.” (Matthew 27:11-14) He did not want to say anything that might interfere with the carrying out of God’s will for him. Jesus was willing to die as a sacrificial Lamb, knowing full well that his death would redeem obedient mankind from sin, sickness, and death.

A lamb cannot atone for the sins of a people, that is done by a bull. He should have been the 'bull of G-d'.

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Isaiah now gives more details of the Messiah’s suffering and humiliation. The prophet writes: “Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with the details of his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke.” (Isaiah 53:8)

What stroke?

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When Jesus was finally taken by his enemies, these religious opposers applied “restraint” in the way they dealt with him. It was not that they held back from expressing their hatred but that they restrained, or withheld, justice. In its rendering of Isaiah 53:8, the Greek Septuagint says “humiliation” instead of “restraint.” Jesus’ enemies humiliated him by withholding the fair treatment to which even a common criminal was entitled. The trial of Jesus made a mockery of justice. How so? In their determination to get rid of Jesus, the Jewish religious leaders broke their own rules.

This is just in line with the rest of the GT. Its major purpose beyond making Jesus into something he never accomplished was to make Jews out to be evil in all they did. what more would you expect from these people that could do know good?

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According to tradition, the Sanhedrin could try a capital case only in the hall of hewn stones in the temple precincts, not in the high priest’s house. Such a trial had to be held during the day, not after sundown. And in a capital case, a guilty verdict had to be announced the day following the conclusion of the hearing. Hence, no trials could be held on the eve of a Sabbath or a festival. These rules were all ignored in the case of Jesus’ trial. (Matthew 26:57-68) Even worse, the religious leaders flagrantly broke God’s Law as they handled the case. For example, they resorted to bribery to entrap Jesus. (Deuteronomy 16:19; Luke 22:2-6) They gave heed to bearers of false witness. (Exodus 20:16; Mark 14:55, 56) And they conspired to release a murderer, thereby bringing bloodguilt upon themselves and their land. (N umbers 35:31-34; Deuteronomy 19:11-13; Luke 23:16-25) Hence, there was no “judgment,” no fair trial resulting in a correct, impartial ruling. Did Jesus’ enemies investigate to see who the man on trial before them really was? Isaiah asks a similar question: “Who will concern himself even with the details of his generation?” The word “generation” may refer to one’s descent, or background. When Jesus was on trial before the Sanhedrin, its members did not take into account his background—that he fulfilled the requirements for the promised Messiah. Instead, they accused him of blasphemy and held him liable to death. (Mark 14:64) Later, the Roman governor Pontius Pilate yielded to pressure and sentenced Jesus to be impaled. (Luke 23:13-25) Thus Jesus, at just 33 1/2 years of age, “was severed,” or cut off, in the midst of his life.

Nah, he was getting old. Most people only lived a little past 40 in that time period.

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Concerning the Messiah’s death and burial, Isaiah next writes: “He will make his burial place even with the wicked ones, and with the rich class in his death, despite the fact that he had done no violence and there was no deception in his mouth.” (Isaiah 53:9)

Already shown to be not applicable to Jesus.

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How, in his death and burial, was Jesus with the wicked as well as with the rich? On Nisan 14, 33 C.E., he died on the execution stake outside the walls of Jerusalem.

15th if you go by gospel of John.

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Since he was impaled between two evildoers, in a sense his burial place was with the wicked ones. (Luke 23:33)

There's that apologetic phrase 'in a sense' again. He was buried in an empty tomb so he was not buried with wicked ones.

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However, after Jesus died, Joseph, a wealthy man from Arimathea, mustered up the courage to ask Pilate for permission to take down Jesus’ body and bury it. Along with Nicodemus, Joseph prepared the body for burial and then placed it in a newly excavated tomb that belonged to him. (Matthew 27:57-60; John 19:38-42) So Jesus’ burial place was also with the rich class.

The tomb was empty and new before he was placed in it so he was not buried with rich men either.

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Next Isaiah says something startling: “Jehovah himself took delight in crushing him; he made him sick.

Sick? Nah looks like he was made dead. But not by crushing.

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If you will set his soul as a guilt offering, he will see his offspring,

He will ever have offspring. He was to be a brother not a father.

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he will prolong his days, and in his hand what is the delight of Jehovah will succeed. Because of the trouble of his soul he will see, he will be satisfied. By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear.” (Isaiah 53:10, 11) How could Jehovah possibly take delight in seeing this faithful servant crushed? Clearly, Jehovah did not personally inflict suffering upon his dear Son. Jesus’ enemies were fully responsible for what they did to him. But Jehovah permitted them to act cruelly. (John 19:11) For what reason? Surely the God of empathy and tender compassion was pained to see his innocent Son suffer. (Isaiah 63:9; Luke 1:77, 78) Jehovah was certainly not displeased in any way with Jesus. Even so, Jehovah took delight in his Son’s willingness to suffer because of all the blessings that would result from it. For one thing, Jehovah set Jesus’ soul as “a guilt offering.” Hence, when Jesus ascended back to heaven, he entered Jehovah’s presence bearing the merit of his sacrificed human life as a guilt offering, and Jehovah was pleased to accept it in behalf of all mankind. (Hebrews 9:24; 10:5-14) By means of his guilt offering, Jesus acquired “offspring.” As “Eternal Father,” he is able to give life—eternal life—to those who exercise faith in his shed blood. (Isaiah 9:6) After all the trouble that Jesus went through as a human soul, how satisfying it must be for him to have the prospect of delivering mankind from sin and death! Of course, it must be even more satisfying for him to know that his integrity provided his heavenly Father with an answer to the taunts of His Adversary, Satan the Devil.—Proverbs 27:11. Another blessing that results from Jesus’ death is that he brings “a righteous standing to many,” even now. He does so, says Isaiah, “by means of his knowledge.” Evidently, this is knowledge that Jesus acquired by becoming a man and suffering unjustly for his obedience to God. (Hebrews 4:15) Having suffered to the point of death, Jesus was able to provide the sacrifice needed to help others acquire a righteous standing. To whom does this righteous standing come? First, to his anointed followers. Because they exercise faith in Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah declares them righteous with a view to adopting them as sons and making them joint heirs with Jesus. (Romans 5:19; 8:16, 17) Then, “a great crowd” of “other sheep” exercise faith in Jesus’ shed blood and enjoy a righteous standing with a view to being friends of God and survivors of Armageddon.—Revelation 7:9; 16:14, 16; John 10:16; James 2:23, 25. Finally, Isaiah describes the triumphs of the Messiah: “For that reason I shall deal him a portion among the many, and it will be with the mighty ones that he will apportion the spoil, due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, and it was with the transgressors that he was counted in; and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”—Isaiah 53:12. The historical record of Jesus’ life and death enables us to make an unmistakable identification: Jesus Christ is the Messianic Servant of Isaiah’s prophecy.

That was one of the weaker efforts to make Jesus fit Is 53. You need to avoid using the NWT for 'old testament'. Hebrew and Aramaic appears to be well beyond the talents of the NWT translators.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 24 2007,09:14)

[/quote] Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2007,12:28) WorshippingJesus,Nov. wrote: Tow Most translations render the word “rejected” not “avoided”. The Hebrew word is “chadel”, which means; rejected, forbearing, transient, fleeting, lacking It comes from the root word “chadal”, which has the sense of one forsaken. Unfortunatly for David, the NWT has not truly rendered this word correctly. Yeshua truly was rejected and forsaken by most. Few remained with him until the end of his natural life, and even the eleven forsook him at the hands of the soldiers. Tow, you say… Quote Ask the majority of Jews today and they will not agree with 'rejected' either. Why? To reject something you must debate the truth of it. No. This is why… Mark 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner: 11 This was the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

You said…

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You're trying to prove fiction with the same book of fiction. Its like trying to prove Harry Potter by using a Harry Potter book.

Of course it is fiction to someone who dosnt believe.

But I dont believe in Harry Potter, do you?

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You say… Quote To most Jews Jesus was simply another failed messiah wannabe so there is nothing to reject. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy, he did not have the proper lineage. I am glad you said most Jews. You say Yeshua didnt fulfill a single prophesy? Prove it. You cant can you? The Pharasees and the Sadusees couldnt prove he didnt either, in fact he was fulfilling scriptures before their eyes and they still didnt believe him. But, some did didnt they?

You said…

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Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them.

You havnt proven a thing. You have simply given us your opinion. Scriptures can be debated.

But the living faith that millions have in a living Yeshua, well lets see you prove that isnt true.

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Remember this one… Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

You said…

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That's not a prophecy that's Isaiah speaking as he prophesied. At least find a prophecy, messianic or not.

Why because you say its not. Yeshua fulfilled it. But of course I cant prove that to you know more than you can prove he didnt.

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Read the Gospels and you will see he litterally fulfilled the prophesy. But then you dont believe the Gospel message do you. Neither did the Sadussees believe him. Sad U See.

You said…

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Its not a prophecy  .

I heard you the first time.

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You say… Quote Therefore the proper terminology is that they did not even acknowledge him and most still do not. If anyone knows messianic prophecies they know Jesus was not the end time Moschiach. Well you should talk to the disciples and the thousands of followers that did know the Messianic prophecys. These were true Jews. Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, taught by the best of his day, but of course you dont like Paul for I am sure his writings are the most convicting of all.

You said…

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They don't convict because they are the words of a self-loathing apostate Jew. Nothing more. His words go against the whole of the Tanakh and are thus the first to be rejected by any Jew who knows a lick of Hebrew bible.

Check with your Hebrew brothers again. I am sure that Paul knew a whole lot more than you about the Tanakh.

I am starting to think you are jeolous that he didnt stay on your side, “killing the Christians”, well not physically I suppose.

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But most Jews still  “reject him”, however God will always have a remnant that will accept him. You have to admit not all Jews hold your belief. In fact their are plenty that dont.

You said…

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As I said no rejection. I don't reject Bill Gates as messiah any more than I (or Jews) reject Jesus as messiah. Neither fulfilled messianic prophecies, neither has the lineage to sit on the throne of David.

So you say. But you do reject Yeshua and Paul and Peter and the GT of the NT. Besides, whats the play on words here? You do not believe Yeshua was the Messiah, right? Then you reject him as the Messiah. This is not sticks and stones will break my bones is it? Geesh.

Again, maybe you should check some of these out…

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http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer

You said…

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Those are posers. They are made up of either evangelicals trying to pretend they have Jewish heritage or Jews who never paid attention to their own Hebrew scriptures.

And you? Where is your credentials?

This truly shows you are in denial. There are many, many Jewish people who probably know more about the Hebrew scriptures than you do and because of this believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Did you even look at those sights? Thats only a few.

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You say… Quote Think of it this way. Rejecting Jesus as the Messiah would be like rejecting the Chicago Cubs for the football playoffs. Since they are a baseball team they would not qualify. Jesus did not qualify to be the Jewish Moshiach. Poor analogy. When the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah then you might have a case.

You said…

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How is it poor? The Cubs can't play football any more than Jesus could be the Messiah. Neither is qualified for the job.

Yes POOR analogy. Again. Tell me about it when the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah.

[kenrch]

Quote (Not3in1 @ Nov. 24 2007,16:12)

Quote (kenrch @ Nov. 24 2007,10:17) To all: Please rely on that which you have found from the beginning! For me that would be the Trinity. Are you advising that I return to it?

Mandy the first thing you believed was the Trinity? I sought God and HIS Son. Never gave any thought at all to doctrines.

This is what I was speaking of:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jo 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Go back to your first Love.
Stand on the rock! And know that you yourself are a child of God. Who will sell their birth right for a bowl of soup?

God bless,

Ken

[Towshab]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2007,01:49)

You said… Quote You're trying to prove fiction with the same book of fiction. Its like trying to prove Harry Potter by using a Harry Potter book. Of course it is fiction to someone who dosnt believe. But I dont believe in Harry Potter, do you?

Hence the comparison of Harry Potter to the new testament. You're catching on.

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Quote You say… Quote To most Jews Jesus was simply another failed messiah wannabe so there is nothing to reject. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy, he did not have the proper lineage. I am glad you said most Jews. You say Yeshua didnt fulfill a single prophesy? Prove it. You cant can you? The Pharasees and the Sadusees couldnt prove he didnt either, in fact he was fulfilling scriptures before their eyes and they still didnt believe him. But, some did didnt they? You said… Quote Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them. You havnt proven a thing. You have simply given us your opinion. Scriptures can be debated.

Yet when I refuted those two lists not a single person replied.

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But the living faith that millions have in a living Yeshua, well lets see you prove that isnt true.

OK just as soon as you prove that Islam and Hinduism are false. Then tackle B'hai, Sikh, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

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Quote Remember this one… Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. You said… Quote That's not a prophecy that's Isaiah speaking as he prophesied. At least find a prophecy, messianic or not. Why because you say its not. Yeshua fulfilled it. But of course I cant prove that to you know more than you can prove he didnt.

I don't know, maybe you should just read Is 61 in context? I note that Christians are very very poor context students. That is why there are thousands of different beliefs.

But how about this verse, written to Israel

Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

What does that have to do with Jesus?!?

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Quote Read the Gospels and you will see he litterally fulfilled the prophesy. But then you dont believe the Gospel message do you. Neither did the Sadussees believe him. Sad U See. You said… Quote Its not a prophecy . I heard you the first time. Quote You say… Quote Therefore the proper terminology is that they did not even acknowledge him and most still do not. If anyone knows messianic prophecies they know Jesus was not the end time Moschiach. Well you should talk to the disciples and the thousands of followers that did know the Messianic prophecys. These were true Jews. Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, taught by the best of his day, but of course you dont like Paul for I am sure his writings are the most convicting of all. You said… Quote They don't convict because they are the words of a self-loathing apostate Jew. Nothing more. His words go against the whole of the Tanakh and are thus the first to be rejected by any Jew who knows a lick of Hebrew bible. Check with your Hebrew brothers again. I am sure that Paul knew a whole lot more than you about the Tanakh.

Paul was an apostate who wanted power and followers for himself. So he took Judaism and threw in various elements from the popular pagan mythologies of the region to come up with Christianity. Paul on more than one occasion said that this was 'my gospel'.

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I am starting to think you are jeolous that he didnt stay on your side, “killing the Christians”, well not physically I suppose.

Please prove that outside of the Christian bible that Jews ever killed Christians. History shows that Rome killed Christians. Nice try though.

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Quote But most Jews still “reject him”, however God will always have a remnant that will accept him. You have to admit not all Jews hold your belief. In fact their are plenty that dont. You said… Quote As I said no rejection. I don't reject Bill Gates as messiah any more than I (or Jews) reject Jesus as messiah. Neither fulfilled messianic prophecies, neither has the lineage to sit on the throne of David. So you say. But you do reject Yeshua and Paul and Peter and the GT of the NT. Besides, whats the play on words here? You do not believe Yeshua was the Messiah, right? Then you reject him as the Messiah. This is not sticks and stones will break my bones is it? Geesh.

You don't get it do you? I said I don't reject Jesus any more than Bill Gates. Because neither qualifies to be Messiah neither is even considered. To reject would be to consider. I just simply do not believe because there is nothing to believe.

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Again, maybe you should check some of these out… Quote http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer You said… Quote Those are posers. They are made up of either evangelicals trying to pretend they have Jewish heritage or Jews who never paid attention to their own Hebrew scriptures. And you? Where is your credentials?

Never said I had any. I just use the Tanakh to show Jesus cannot be the Moshiach. I don't have to have special credentials to point out the obvious.

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This truly shows you are in denial. There are many, many Jewish people who probably know more about the Hebrew scriptures than you do and because of this believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Did you even look at those sights? Thats only a few.

I've looked long ago. They are basically evangelical sites with a Jewish dust cover. What's sad is that much of what they try to practice in their pretend Messianic Christianity is rabbinic and comes from the Talmud!

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Quote You say… Quote Think of it this way. Rejecting Jesus as the Messiah would be like rejecting the Chicago Cubs for the football playoffs. Since they are a baseball team they would not qualify. Jesus did not qualify to be the Jewish Moshiach. Poor analogy. When the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah then you might have a case. You said… Quote How is it poor? The Cubs can't play football any more than Jesus could be the Messiah. Neither is qualified for the job. Yes POOR analogy. Again. Tell me about it when the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah.

I don't mean to insult but you get less than the others on here. You are so blinded you cannot see obvious things. I was showing that the Cubs have just as much credentials to play in the football playoffs as Jesus has of being the Jewish Messiah.

Zero.

Do we have to crucify some Cubs players for you to understand?

But while we're talking of his death, the very fact that he died before fulfilling a single messianic prophecy shows he does not qualify.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2007,12:28)

Quote Yeshua is still rejected by most today. Isa 53:3 truly is a prohesy that was fulfilled by Yeshua. You say prove it. You say… Quote Again you must disprove that the servant of Is 52:13 which sets the context for Is 53 is not Israel since it is plainly pointed out in many places that YHVH is calling Israel His servant. Can you deny the context? I know you like most Christians will. I dont have to disprove anything. Burdon of proof is on you since you are the one claiming Yeshua is not the Messiah. But since you insist on your interpretatiion of Isa 53, then tell us when or how by “Israels” stripes “Israel” will be healed? Isa 53:5 How will Israels soul be an offering for sin. Isa 53:10 How will Israel bear the sins of many? Isa 53:12

You said…

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I already have proven it. Look throughout Isaiah and you will find that YHVH's servant is Israel. Do I need to do this for every Christian who is too lazy to read? OK at least one more time. ======================================= Isa 41:8  But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Isa 44:1  Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Isa 44:2  Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isa 44:21  Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. Isa 45:4  For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isa 48:20  Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. ================================== Who is the servant? Jacob. Israel. Now look to the context of who is being spoken of in Is 52-53 Isa 52:13  Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. Since you have absolutely NO proof to go against this than I have indeed proven who Is 52-53 is about: Israel.

The scriptures you quote simply say Jacob is his servant.

What are you saying, that “YHWH has no other servants”?

The word Jacob is not found in Isa 52 and 53. The word Israel is found only once here…

Isa 52:12
For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward.

The God of Israel will be whose reward? Seems like he is talking to someone besides Jacob. So now verse 13 as you show can not be referring to Israel because verse 12 clearly shows he is talking to someone else.

So you have proven nothing. You have simply given your opinion and interpretation which at this point is much to be desired.

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BTW since you claim to know YHWH and follow the Torah, when is the last time you gave a sin offering?

You said…

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Everyday. Its called repentant prayer. Look about the 7th page of the 'Jesus the Messiah' thread to see the many ways G-d provided for people to atone for sins.

So then you don’t believe in the Torah scripture that says…

Lev 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

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Quote Christians can not “prove” this to be true no more than you can “prove” it to be false. You say… Quote I cannot prove that Santa is fake or that Stu doesn't have fairies living in his garden either. But context in Isaiah says that Is 53 is Israel. Show me in context where the Moshiach is mentioned in Isaiah in association with Is 53. See above. Burden of proof is on you. Show verse by verse how Isa 53 is refering to a nation and not an individual.   Quote Heres something for you to consider. You said… Quote Just did. The servant is Israel. Checkmate. No. Not true. You made an illegal move. Besides you never answered my questions… But since you insist on your interpretatiion of Isa 53, then tell us when or how by “Israels” stripes “Israel” will be healed? Isa 53:5 How will Israels soul be an offering for sin. Isa 53:10 How will Israel bear the sins of many? Isa 53:12 Quote Even though Yeshua is rejected by most, yet, Yeshua is claimed by millions to be alive in them by his spirit everyday. Millions after his death untill now attest to his ressurection and that he lives in them, and that he has litterally changed their lives, and that they follow his voice that speaks to them daily. You say… Quote What about the millions who believe in Allah and Muhammed? The millions who believe in the various Hindu gods? Why do you deny the strength of their numbers as proof of validity? Not dienying they didnt exist. But, what about them? Give me an example of one of their followers that believe that Muhammed the prophet of their God “Allah” litterally is alive by his spirit in them. How many believe Mohammed is alive?

You said…

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Who knows. They are silly enough to claim such a pagan idea as death-rebirth which is quite common with many pagan mythologies. Muslims are also strictly monotheistic while the majority of Christians worship a three-headed god that the Jews never knew (see Deu 13).

Yes of course, demean and belittle Christianity with the usual attacks, comparing it to other pagan religions, since you have no explanation for my statement. Of course while you are at it take a shot at my faith as a Trinitarian.

Lets see, the prosecutor says…Christianity is a myth, Jesus is dead, and all of his followers are liars and deceivers, especially that Paul guy.

The defence says.. But your Honour, we just heard the testimony of millions of people that say that Yeshua lives and speaks to them everyday.

The Jury’s verdict. Not guilty on all counts for lack of evidence.

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Hindu Gods? Do their followers claim that their Prophet lives inside of them?

You said…

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I think some do as a matter of fact. And hinduism also has a trinity just like Christianity. Krishna is very much like Jesus. Both were born of virgins. Both came to cleanse their followers from sins. Both were placed in manger after birth. Both died on a tree. Plus Christianity and Hinduism is similar. Both believe in rewards or punishment in heaven or hell. Both have a day of judgment. Both require faith in their savior for salvation. Both believe sickness and disease is caused by evil spirits. Both believe in a war in heaven between good and bad angels. Both believe in being born again.

And what does that prove? Atheist believe the sky is blue, and the grass is green, and 2+2=4, and that you have to eat to live. They even put their pants on the same way.

Don’t forget my friend, you cant totally separate yourself from Christians. For we also believe in YHWH the one who commanded the Jews to kill innocent woman and children, and conquer lands that belonged to others. The Islamic terroist believe in these things also. In fact you say they will take over the world.

But, does that mean our God YHWH is not real?

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Quote Do you know of any man in history that has this kind of testimony and following, or who has had more influence and impact in the history of man since the first century? You say… Quote Muhammed. Again. Do they claim Mohaamad lives in them and that he speaks to them everyday?

You said…

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No but he has had almost as much influence on the followers of Islam as Jesus AND he has been around for several hundreds of years less. At its present pace, Islam will take over Christianity as the leading religion in the world as far as numbers of adherents.

Really? I dont think so. Christians are not converting to Islam, but Islamics are converting to Christ every day.

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I have to lauph that you could even think this especially since Muhammed is not even found in the Hebrew scriptures which you claim to believe in. I would have thought you would have said Moses or David.

You said…

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No because Christians override Moses and David with their own Christian bible.

What are you saying? That the God of the NT is greater than YHWH.

Seems to me that the YHWH of the Hebrew scriptures has always made himself known. Has he gone into hiding after Christ appeared? HMMM. Where is the Prophets and Judges that say “Thus saith the Lord? Is YHWH asleep?

You said…

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They pale in comparison to god-man Jesus.

You bet they do. For the Hebrew God has said…

Luke 9:35
And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

You look for another man, an anointed Prophet. God sends his Son to die for “ALL” of mankind. Truly this is the greatest story ever told.

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Quote One that is claimed to litterally live in the hearts of his followers, speaking to them and changing their lives. What figure in history is like that today? You say… Quote Dionysus was also said to 'live' in his followers. There are many similarities between Jesus and Dionysus. Is that the best you can do? Amazing that you would appeal to Greek gods to defend your position.

You said…

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That is not the only god. There are a whole plethora of pagan gos that Christianity has borrowed from. Mithras, Dionysus, Krishna, Horus are the main ones. In fact Christianity really shares very little with Judaism because most believe in a three-in-one god, that the Torah is abolished, that the Sabbath is now 'the lord's day', that drinking blood is acceptable, that human sacrifice is warranted, that one must put faith in a man for salvation (albeit a god-man), that one can pay for the sins of another..

I have heard all this before and most of it is misrepresentation of the Christi
an faith.

For instance the drinking of blood. No Christian believes that you drink litteral blood. Yeshua is speaking in spiritual terms. Obviously this is a hard saying for you so I see why you would not follow.

You said…

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All of these (and more) are foreign or in opposition to Judaism

Your opinion. You have simply shut your eyes to the truth. But that is your right.

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Do you know of anyone today that believes Dionysus lives in them and speaks to them everyday.

You said…

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I have to stop and ask, what does this prove? You can get a feeling from drugs, alcohol, love, and lack of oxygen to the brain.  So feelings mean nothing.

Exactly. It proves nothing. That’s what this debate is about.

You trying to prove that Yeshua is not the Messiah can not be done no more than I can prove he is. Because unless you can call fire out of heaven and have YHWH appear in a cloud and say… “Yeshua” is not the Messiah”, then you cant prove it. You were not there. You are living in fantasy land or something like it if you cant see that. All you can do is like everyone else, testify what you believe to be true or false, that’s it.

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Remember millions of believers claim this as being fact, that the risen saviour lives in them and speaks to them. In a court of law that would be pretty solid evedence. But of course you can choose to believe that the millions are all liars or are decieved.

You said…

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Remember than many millions more do not believe in him and believe in something else or nothing at all. All this shows is that the Christian bible is a popular work of fiction.

No what this proves is that you and the millions just don’t believe. Your unbelief dosnt negate the testimony and faith of the millions who believe he is alive and lives in them. Though Christians disagree on doctrinal points, they still all have one thing in common, That Yeshua is the Messiah.

Many of the Jews believe like you do that YHWH is their God, but also believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

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Quote So Dont flatter yourself. You havent shaken a true believers faith at all. However, maybe you do serve a purpose. Maybe God would use your unbelieving heart to seperate the true believers from the doubting and the professing ones, or those who are sitting on the fence and even questioning that Yeshua is the Messiah. Peter gives us a wonderful prophecy Yeshua fulfilled after his death. Isa 8:14 NASB And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 1 Peter 2:7 NASB This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS (Israel) REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they “stumble” because they are “disobedient” to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. Remember Peter was the preacher to the Jews. So he was not anti-semetic. YHWY is simply speaking through him saying no matter how much truth some may have, they still will not believe. You say… Quote What's to believe? If a Jew knows his Tanakh Jesus is just another man. They know that Jesus didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy. Not one. They know he did not have the proper lineage. The only Jew that accepts Jesus is one who does not know his Tanakh. But what of his followers like Peter and Paul. They knew the Tanakh well and quoted from it as proof of the Messiah Yeshua has come. So I guess you would also call all of these liars also… http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer This is only a few by the way.

You said…

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Ask any observant Jew about these organizations. They are but another diabolical way to kill Jews. That is once a Jew accepts Jesus a Jewish soul dies. They can return to Judaism but if they do not they are no longer Jewish.

And that is their opnion just like it is yours. You don’t know their hearts. You are not God to judge them as such. You simply refuse to see that there is divisions in your Hebrew faith like there is in Christianity. Those who believe in Yeshua Messiah and those who don’t.

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You say… Quote Just like lazy Christians there are lazy Jews. That's why the majority of Christians never open their own bibles. Of course you  have to believe this, if not then many of your Jewish brothers (If you are a Jew) would correct you.

You said…

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What Jewish brothers? Christians are not Jewish. Once they convert they are Christians and no longer Jews.

And they would say to you
that you are lost and blind and cannot see Biblical Prophesy that clearly shows Yeshua Messiah has come.

Again you have not shown anything that proves he has not come. Maybe you should ask your god to call fire out of heaven and show who is God like Elijah,. Because apparently your god is asleep. For there have been no Prophets or Judges since about 400 years before Yeshua had come on the scene, has there?

Of couurse Christians and converted Jews know the reason for this is that only the Son can reveal him.

Lk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jn 5:39
Search the scriptures; (Torah, Tanakh) for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

He Loves you and calls for you. He desires that you might have Eternal Life.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Towshab @ Nov. 25 2007,01:08)

[/quote] WorshippingJesus,Nov. wrote: You said… Quote You're trying to prove fiction with the same book of fiction. Its like trying to prove Harry Potter by using a Harry Potter book. Of course it is fiction to someone who dosnt believe. But I dont believe in Harry Potter, do you?

You said…

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Hence the comparison of Harry Potter to the new testament. You're catching on.

So you do believe in Harry Potter?

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Quote You say… Quote To most Jews Jesus was simply another failed messiah wannabe so there is nothing to reject. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy, he did not have the proper lineage. I am glad you said most Jews. You say Yeshua didnt fulfill a single prophesy? Prove it. You cant can you? The Pharasees and the Sadusees couldnt prove he didnt either, in fact he was fulfilling scriptures before their eyes and they still didnt believe him. But, some did didnt they? You said… Quote Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them. You havnt proven a thing. You have simply given us your opinion. Scriptures can be debated.

Youu said…

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Yet when I refuted those two lists not a single person replied.

Probably because they didnt have the energy to get into debating you, since most here are confident in the Lord Jesus as their Messiah and would think it is a waste of time. Like I am loosing interest in this debate myself.

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But the living faith that millions have in a living Yeshua, well lets see you prove that isnt true.

You said…

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OK just as soon as you prove that Islam and Hinduism are false. Then tackle B'hai, Sikh, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.

You forgot to ad the Hebrew religion.

You are not listening. No one here is trying to prove Yeshua is the Messiah. You are the only one trying to prove anything.

You have to come to Yeshua by faith. The same faith that God spoke of Abraham in offering his only Son as a sacrifice. Faith, then comes the proof for every believer in their heart, God the Father living inside of them testifying to the Son.

It cant be proven, just like you cant prove he isnt.

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Quote Remember this one… Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. You said… Quote That's not a prophecy that's Isaiah speaking as he prophesied. At least find a prophecy, messianic or not. Why because you say its not. Yeshua fulfilled it. But of course I cant prove that to you know more than you can prove he didnt.

You said…

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I don't know, maybe you should just read Is 61 in context? I note that Christians are very very poor context students. That is why there are thousands of different beliefs.

Patronizing, stereotyping!!! Does this make you feel better and smarter than others?

And yet, you have shown how you take Isa 52 and 53 and apply it to a nation when it is obvious to any serious Bible student it is talking about a person.

You said…

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But how about this verse, written to Israel Isa 61:6  But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. What does that have to do with Jesus?!?

What does it have to do with a Nation? Are you saying the entire nation of Israel/Jacob shall be Priest and ministers of God?

Good, then you will agree with Peter your Jewish Brother who walked with Yeshua…

1 Peter 2:
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises
of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

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Quote Read the Gospels and you will see he litterally fulfilled the prophesy. But then you dont believe the Gospel message do you. Neither did the Sadussees believe him. Sad U See. You said… Quote Its not a prophecy  . I heard you the first time. Quote You say… Quote Therefore the proper terminology is that they did not even acknowledge him and most still do not. If anyone knows messianic prophecies they know Jesus was not the end time Moschiach. Well you should talk to the disciples and the thousands of followers that did know the Messianic prophecys. These were true Jews. Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, taught by the best of his day, but of course you dont like Paul for I am sure his writings are the most convicting of all. You said… Quote They don't convict because they are the words of a self-loathing apostate Jew. Nothing more. His words go against the whole of the Tanakh and are thus the first to be rejected by any Jew who knows a lick of Hebrew bible. Check with your Hebrew brothers again. I am sure that Paul knew a whole lot more than you about the Tanakh.

You said…

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Paul was an apostate who wanted power and followers for himself.

Yes for you it has to be that way, or it would leave you as an unsaved Jew (If you are a Jew).

But yours are empty words which have no proof. There are thousands of manuscripts that disagree with you.

You said..

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He took Judaism and threw in various elements from the popular pagan mythologies of the region to come up with Christianity. Paul on more than one occasion said that this was 'my gospel'.

Your opinion, with no proof.

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I am starting to think you are jeolous that he didnt stay on your side, “killing the Christians”, well not physically I suppose.

You said…

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Please prove that outside of the Christian bible that Jews ever killed Christians. History shows that Rome killed Christians. Nice try though.

I dont have to prove anything, but if I did I dont need to go outside of scriptures like you do.

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Quote But most Jews still  “reject him”, however God will always have a remnant that will accept him. You have to admit not all Jews hold your belief. In fact their are plenty that dont. You said… Quote As I said no rejection. I don't reject Bill Gates as messiah any more than I (or Jews) reject Jesus as messiah. Neither fulfilled messianic prophecies, neither has the lineage to sit on the throne of David. So you say. But you do reject Yeshua and Paul and Peter and the GT of the NT. Besides, whats the play on words here? You do not believe Yeshua was the Messiah, right? Then you reject him as the Messiah. This is not sticks and stones will break my bones is it? Geesh.

You said…

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You don't get it do you? I said I don't reject Jesus any more than Bill Gates. Because neither qualifies to be Messiah neither is even considered. To reject would be to consider. I just simply do not believe because there is nothing to believe.

No you dont get it. You have convinced yourself that Yeshua is not the Messiah and that you cant reject someone you do not believe in. But to believers and followers of Christ, you have rejected the Messiah and have failed to prove that he isnt the one.

Quote

Again, maybe you should check some of these out… Quote http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer You said… Quote Those are posers. They are made up of either evangelicals trying to pretend they have Jewish heritage or Jews who never paid attention to their own Hebrew scriptures. And you? Where is your credentials?

You said…

Quote

Never said I had any. I just use the Tanakh to show Jesus cannot be the Moshiach. I don't have to have special credentials to point out the obvious.

Of course you dont have any credentials. You come here to try and “Prove” to the Christians that Yeshua and the GT is a myth by using the very Bible that we base our life on.

You havent proven a thing. You have only given us your opinions and interpretations. Somehow you think that if you can quote some scriptures from the Tanakh or show some ambiguity in the Bible that you can steal the faith out of a Christians heart. You may be successful in decieving some. If they are Yeshuas though they will be back, for they know his voice and another they will not follow.

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This truly shows you are in denial. There are many, many Jewish people who probably know more about the Hebrew scriptures than you do and because of this believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Did you even look at those sights? Thats only a few.

You said…

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I've looked long ago. They are basically evangelical sites with a Jewish dust cover. What's sad is that much of what they try to practice in their pretend Messianic Christianity is rabbinic and comes from the Talmud!

Still in denial.

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Quote You say… Quote Think of it this way. Rejecting Jesus as the Messiah would be like rejecting the Chicago Cubs for the football playoffs. Since they are a baseball team they would not qualify. Jesus did not qualify to be the Jewish Moshiach. Poor analogy. When the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah then you might have a case.   You said… Quote How is it poor? The Cubs can't play football any more than Jesus could be the Messiah. Neither is qualified for the job. Yes POOR analogy. Again. Tell me about it when the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah.

You said…

Quote

I don't mean to insult but you get less than the others on here. You are so blinded you cannot see obvious things

.
Your patronizing goes no where with me my friend. I am used to it, been on this board for a long time.

You said…

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I was showing that the Cubs have just as much credentials to play in the football playoffs as Jesus has of being the Jewish Messiah. Zero. Do we have to crucify some Cubs players for you to understand? But while we're talking of his death, the very fact that he died before fulfilling a single messianic prophecy shows he does not qualify.

I understand completely. That somehow you believe that you can prove that Yeshua didnt fulfill a Prophesy by quoting a few scriptures from the Tanakh.

But you cant steal the Faith out of a believers heart.

LOL.

[Towshab]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2007,14:21)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 23 2007,12:28) Quote Yeshua is still rejected by most today. Isa 53:3 truly is a prohesy that was fulfilled by Yeshua. You say prove it. You say… Quote Again you must disprove that the servant of Is 52:13 which sets the context for Is 53 is not Israel since it is plainly pointed out in many places that YHVH is calling Israel His servant. Can you deny the context? I know you like most Christians will. I dont have to disprove anything. Burdon of proof is on you since you are the one claiming Yeshua is not the Messiah. But since you insist on your interpretatiion of Isa 53, then tell us when or how by “Israels” stripes “Israel” will be healed? Isa 53:5 How will Israels soul be an offering for sin. Isa 53:10 How will Israel bear the sins of many? Isa 53:12 You said… Quote I already have proven it. Look throughout Isaiah and you will find that YHVH's servant is Israel. Do I need to do this for every Christian who is too lazy to read? OK at least one more time. ======================================= Isa 41:8 But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. Isa 44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Isa 44:2 Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen. Isa 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for thou art my servant: I have formed thee; thou art my servant: O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of me. Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me. Isa 48:20 Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth; say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob. ================================== Who is the servant? Jacob. Israel. Now look to the context of who is being spoken of in Is 52-53 Isa 52:13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. Since you have absolutely NO proof to go against this than I have indeed proven who Is 52-53 is about: Israel. The scriptures you quote simply say Jacob is his servant. What are you saying, that “YHWH has no other servants”? The word Jacob is not found in Isa 52 and 53. The word Israel is found only once here… Isa 52:12 For ye shall not go out with haste, nor go by flight: for the LORD will go before you; and the God of Israel will be your reward. The God of Israel will be whose reward? Seems like he is talking to someone besides Jacob. So now verse 13 as you show can not be referring to Israel because verse 12 clearly shows he is talking to someone else.

Huh? How so? Because you want it to? That is the only reason. Jacob or Israel (same) is called YHVH's servant in Isaiah at least 6 times. How many times is Jesus mentioned?

Zero.

For that matter how many times is the Moschiach mentioned in Isaiah? Since we KNOW that Israel aka Jacob has been called G-d's servant many times in Isaiah context goes to Israel.

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So you have proven nothing. You have simply given your opinion and interpretation which at this point is much to be desired.

My 'interpretation' or not, the fact that Israel is referred many times as YHVH's servant in the book of Isaiah lends overwhelming evidence to Jacob, not Jesus. Jesus is NEVER mentioned in Isaiah.

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Quote BTW since you claim to know YHWH and follow the Torah, when is the last time you gave a sin offering? You said… Quote Everyday. Its called repentant prayer. Look about the 7th page of the 'Jesus the Messiah' thread to see the many ways G-d provided for people to atone for sins. So then you don’t believe in the Torah scripture that says… Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The first verse that Christians go to.

And the weakest for your case.

Just like before you have a big problem with context. Are you a Jehovah's Witness? They are masters at taking a verse or even just a part of a verse to try to win people over. When context is taken into consideration their theology falls like a house of cards.

Now go back and read in context

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
Lev 17:13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
Lev 17:14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

But what does your Jesus say?

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, veril
y, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
Joh 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Jesus in one boldface stroke defied the Torah by telling that others must drink his blood!!! The Jesus of the Christian bible wants you to be a cannibal. While this is supposedly symbolic, many Catholics think that the wafer and wine literally becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus. Symbolic or not, ingesting blood is an affront to YHVH. Just reason #901 why Jesus is NOT the Moshiach.

Beyond that, it says that blood makes atonement but it does NOT say it is the only way.

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Quote Quote Christians can not “prove” this to be true no more than you can “prove” it to be false. You say… Quote I cannot prove that Santa is fake or that Stu doesn't have fairies living in his garden either. But context in Isaiah says that Is 53 is Israel. Show me in context where the Moshiach is mentioned in Isaiah in association with Is 53. See above. Burden of proof is on you. Show verse by verse how Isa 53 is refering to a nation and not an individual. Quote Heres something for you to consider. You said… Quote Just did. The servant is Israel. Checkmate. No. Not true. You made an illegal move. Besides you never answered my questions… But since you insist on your interpretatiion of Isa 53, then tell us when or how by “Israels” stripes “Israel” will be healed? Isa 53:5 How will Israels soul be an offering for sin. Isa 53:10 How will Israel bear the sins of many? Isa 53:12 The time has either passed or is yet to come. Either way it is Israel and not Jesus. Show me Jesus or even Moshiach in Isaiah. Quote Quote Even though Yeshua is rejected by most, yet, Yeshua is claimed by millions to be alive in them by his spirit everyday. Millions after his death untill now attest to his ressurection and that he lives in them, and that he has litterally changed their lives, and that they follow his voice that speaks to them daily. You say… Quote What about the millions who believe in Allah and Muhammed? The millions who believe in the various Hindu gods? Why do you deny the strength of their numbers as proof of validity? Not dienying they didnt exist. But, what about them? Give me an example of one of their followers that believe that Muhammed the prophet of their God “Allah” litterally is alive by his spirit in them. How many believe Mohammed is alive? You said… Quote Who knows. They are silly enough to claim such a pagan idea as death-rebirth which is quite common with many pagan mythologies. Muslims are also strictly monotheistic while the majority of Christians worship a three-headed god that the Jews never knew (see Deu 13). Yes of course, demean and belittle Christianity with the usual attacks, comparing it to other pagan religions, since you have no explanation for my statement. Of course while you are at it take a shot at my faith as a Trinitarian.

Oh so you are not a JW. Good to know. So you are one of the idol worshipers. I should have figured with the username 'worshippingjesus'. You place a man before YHVH.

But it should be compared to pagan religions since it is a tossed salad of pagan mythologies wit hsome Judaism thrown in for flair.

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Lets see, the prosecutor says…Christianity is a myth, Jesus is dead, and all of his followers are liars and deceivers, especially that Paul guy.

Seems like a good summation. You're catching on rather quickly.

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The defence says.. But your Honour, we just heard the testimony of millions of people that say that Yeshua lives and speaks to them everyday.

Maybe they will make a medication for that delusion some day too. I wonder if Prozac will work?

Really, numbers mean nothing. Millions of Jews were killed under Hitler so I guess it was the right thing to do?

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The Jury’s verdict. Not guilty on all counts for lack of evidence.

Yes lack of evidence. Very accurate rendering of the life of the mythological god-man Jesus of Nazareth.

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Quote Hindu Gods? Do their followers claim that their Prophet lives inside of them? You said… Quote I think some do as a matter of fact. And hinduism also has a trinity just like Christianity. Krishna is very much like Jesus. Both were born of virgins. Both came to cleanse their followers from sins. Both were placed in manger after birth. Both died on a tree. Plus Christianity and Hinduism is similar. Both believe in rewards or punishment in heaven or hell. Both have a day of judgment. Both require faith i n their savior for salvation. Both believe sickness and disease is caused by evil spirits. Both believe in a war in heaven between good and bad angels. Both believe in being born again. And what does that prove? Atheist believe the sky is blue, and the grass is green, and 2+2=4, and that you have to eat to live. They even put their pants on the same way.

Yet those are facts not fictions that they share. Really you are late in the game. Are you 2nd or 3rd string?

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Don’t forget my friend, you cant totally separate yourself from Christians. For we also believe in YHWH the one who commanded the Jews to kill innocent woman and children, and conquer lands that belonged to others. The Islamic terroist believe in these things also. In fact you say they will take over the world.

I did? You misread me. Do you see only what you want to see? I said they will over take Christianity as the religion with the most adherents. Really you have a problem with reading it seems, both 'old testament' and my posts it seems.

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But, does that mean our God YHWH is not real?

Where is YHVH mentioned in the new testament? All I see is some 'god the father' character and he only speaks a few times. In the Tanakh YHVH speaks hundreds, maybe thousands, of times.

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Quote Quote Do you know of any man in history that has this kind of testimony and following, or who has had more influence and impact in the history of man since the first century? You say… Quote Muhammed. Again. Do they claim Mohaamad lives in them and that he speaks to them everyday? You said… Quote No but he has had almost as much influence on the followers of Islam as Jesus AND he has been around for several hundreds of years less. At its present pace, Islam will take over Christianity as the leading religion in the world as far as numbers of adherents. Really? I dont think so. Christians are not converting to Islam, but Islamics are converting to Christ every day.

You are dead wrong. Christians are converting to Islam at a faster pace than Muslims converting to Christianity. Either is false but that is the way of it. Both have wanted to kill Jews and that is the one thing they both have in common.

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Quote I have to lauph that you could even think this especially since Muhammed is not even found in the Hebrew scriptures which you claim to believe in. I would have thought you would have said Moses or David. You said… Quote No because Christians override Moses and David with their own Christian bible. What are you saying? That the God of the NT is greater than YHWH. Seems to me that the YHWH of the Hebrew scriptures has always made himself known. Has he gone into hiding after Christ appeared? HMMM. Where is the Prophets and Judges that say “Thus saith the Lord? Is YHWH asleep? You said… Quote They pale in comparison to god-man Jesus. You bet they do. For the Hebrew God has said… Luke 9:35 And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

That was Zeus or Jupiter. Or just a lie. I vote #2.

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You look for another man, an anointed Prophet. God sends his Son to die for “ALL” of mankind. Truly this is the greatest story ever told.

Story is almost appropriate. Fictional story would be the better term.

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Quote Quote One that is claimed to litterally live in the hearts of his followers, speaking to them and changing their lives. What figure in history is like that today? You say… Quote Dionysus was also said to 'live' in his followers. There are many similarities between Jesus and Dionysus. Is that the best you can do? Amazing that you would appeal to Greek gods to defend your position. You said… Quote That is not the only god. There are a whole plethora of pagan gos that Christianity has borrowed from. Mithras, Dionysus, Krishna, Horus are the main ones. In fact Christianity really shares very little with Judaism because most believe in a three-in-one god, that the Torah is abolished, that the Sabbath is now 'the lord's day', that drinking blood is acceptable, that human sacrifice is warranted, that one must put faith in a man for salvation (albeit a god-man), that one can pay for the sins of another.. I have heard all this before and most of it is misrepresentation of the Ch ristian faith. For instance the drinking of blood. No Christian believes that you drink litteral blood. Yeshua is speaking in spiritual terms. Obviously this is a hard saying for you so I see why you would not follow.

So Jesus symbolically broke YHVH's Torah? OK. Son of Jupiter then because the son of YHVH would not break his Father's Torah symbolically or otherwise.

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You said… Quote All of these (and more) are foreign or in opposition to Judaism Your opinion. You have simply shut your eyes to the truth. But that is your right.

Show me the truth then. But do so by lining it up with Tanakh and Torah. If you cannot it is false.

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Quote Do you know of anyone today that believes Dionysus lives in them and speaks to them everyday. You said… Quote I have to stop and ask, what does this prove? You can get a feeling from drugs, alcohol, love, and lack of oxygen to the brain. So feelings mean nothing. Exactly. It proves nothing. That’s what this debate is about. You trying to prove that Yeshua is not the Messiah can not be done no more than I can prove he is.

Wrong. He did not fulfill Messianic prophecies, he did not have the proper lineage. Therefore the proof is presented. You have nothing to refute this.

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Because unless you can call fire out of heaven and have YHWH appear in a cloud and say… “Yeshua” is not the Messiah”, then you cant prove it. You were not there. You are living in fantasy land or something like it if you cant see that. All you can do is like everyone else, testify what you believe to be true or false, that’s it.

Belief has little to do with it. I can use Tanakh and have already done so many times.

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Quote Remember millions of believers claim this as being fact, that the risen saviour lives in them and speaks to them. In a court of law that would be pretty solid evedence. But of course you can choose to believe that the millions are all liars or are decieved. You said… Quote Remember than many millions more do not believe in him and believe in something else or nothing at all. All this shows is that the Christian bible is a popular work of fiction. No what this proves is that you and the millions just don’t believe. Your unbelief dosnt negate the testimony and faith of the millions who believe he is alive and lives in them. Though Christians disagree on doctrinal points, they still all have one thing in common, That Yeshua is the Messiah.

Millions are mislead. After all, isn't the path narrow? How can millions fit on such a narrow path?

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Many of the Jews believe like you do that YHWH is their God, but also believe that Yeshua is the Messiah.

And they are no longer Jews. End of that story.

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Quote Quote So Dont flatter yourself. You havent shaken a true believers faith at all. However, maybe you do serve a purpose. Maybe God would use your unbelieving heart to seperate the true believers from the doubting and the professing ones, or those who are sitting on the fence and even questioning that Yeshua is the Messiah. Peter gives us a wonderful prophecy Yeshua fulfilled after his death. Isa 8:14 NASB And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. 1 Peter 2:7 NASB This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, “THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS (Israel) REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,” 8 and, “A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE”; for they “stumble” because they are “disobedient” to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. Remember Peter was the preacher to the Jews. So he was not anti-semetic. YHWY is simply speaking through him saying no matter how much truth some may have, they still will not believe. You say… Quote What's to believe? If a Jew knows his Tanakh Jesus is just another man. They know that Jesus didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy. Not one. They know he did not have the proper lineage. The only Jew that accepts Jesus is one who does not know his Tanakh. But what of his followers like Peter and Paul. They knew the Tanakh well and quoted from it as proof of the Messiah Yeshua has come. Quote So I guess you would also call all of these liars also… http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer This is only a few by the way. You said… Quote Ask any observant Jew about these organizations. They are but another diabolical way to kill Jews. That is once a Jew accepts Jesus a Jewish soul dies. They can return to Judaism but if they do not they are no longer Jewish. And that is their opnion just like it is yours. You don’t know their hearts. You are not God to judge them as such. You simply refuse to see that there is divisions in your Hebrew faith like there is in Christianity. Those who believe in Yeshua Messiah and those who don’t. Quote You say… Just like lazy Christians there are lazy Jews. That's why the majority of Christians never open their own bibles. Of course you have to believe this, if not then many of your Jewish brothers (If you are a Jew) would correct you. You said… Quote What Jewish brothers? Christians are not Jewish. Once they convert they are Christians and no longer Jews. And they would say to you that you are lost and blind and cannot see Biblical Prophesy that clearly shows Yeshua Messiah has come.

And I would laugh in their face like I would yours. Ignorance of scripture is no excuse for them.

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Again you have not shown anything that proves he has not come. Maybe you should ask your god to call fire out of heaven and show who is God like Elijah,. Because apparently your god is asleep. For there have been no Prophets or Judges since about 400 years before Yeshua had come on the scene, has there?

So you admit that YHVH is not your G-d. Fine with me I knew you worshiped an idol already. Is your god Jesus then?

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Of couurse Christians and converted Jews know the reason for this is that only the Son can reveal him. Lk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. Jn 5:39 Search the scriptures; (Torah, Tanakh) for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. He Loves you and calls for you. He desires that you might have Eternal Life.

I do. It has nothing to do with Mithras. Uh I mean Jesus.

[Towshab]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2007,17:48)

So you do believe in Harry Potter?

As much as Jesus. Although I will admit that the Harry Potter books are more entertaining.

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Quote Quote You say… Quote To most Jews Jesus was simply another failed messiah wannabe so there is nothing to reject. He didn't fulfill a single messianic prophecy, he did not have the proper lineage. I am glad you said most Jews. You say Yeshua didnt fulfill a single prophesy? Prove it. You cant can you? The Pharasees and the Sadusees couldnt prove he didnt either, in fact he was fulfilling scriptures before their eyes and they still didnt believe him. But, some did didnt they? You said… Quote Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them. You havnt proven a thing. You have simply given us your opinion. Scriptures can be debated. Youu said… Quote Yet when I refuted those two lists not a single person replied. Probably because they didnt have the energy to get into debating you, since most here are confident in the Lord Jesus as their Messiah and would think it is a waste of time. Like I am loosing interest in this debate myself.

Yes because you have brought zero evidence to the table and walking away is easier than facing reality. I don't blame you though.

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Quote But the living faith that millions have in a living Yeshua, well lets see you prove that isnt true. You said… Quote OK just as soon as you prove that Islam and Hinduism are false. Then tackle B'hai, Sikh, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. You forgot to ad the Hebrew religion.

Ah but your religion is supposed to be based on the Hebrew religion is it not? That's where the large catch comes in. If the Tanakh is not true then the Christian bible CANNOT be true. That's where Christianity goofed.

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You are not listening. No one here is trying to prove Yeshua is the Messiah. You are the only one trying to prove anything.

Nah just showing you the reality. Its up you you to defend or ignore.

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You have to come to Yeshua by faith. The same faith that God spoke of Abraham in offering his only Son as a sacrifice. Faith, then comes the proof for every believer in their heart, God the Father living inside of them testifying to the Son.

Wrong. Abraham had faith because he spoke with YHVH. While I never spoke with YHVH personally beyond prayer, I certainly NEVER spoke with Jesus.

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It cant be proven, just like you cant prove he isnt. Quote Quote Remember this one… Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Lk 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. 17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, 18 The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. You said… Quote That's not a prophecy that's Isaiah speaking as he prophesied. At least find a prophecy, messianic or not. Why because you say its not. Yeshua fulfilled it. But of course I cant prove that to you know more than you can prove he didnt. You said… Quote I don't know, maybe you should just read Is 61 in context? I note that Christians are very very poor context students. That is why there are thousands of different beliefs. Patronizing, stereotyping!!! Does this make you feel better and smarter than others?

No it means I know how to read beyond one verse.

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And yet, you have shown how you take Isa 52 and 53 and apply it to a nation when it is obvious to any serious Bible student it is talking about a person.

You mean a Christian.

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You said… Quote But how about this verse, written to Israel Isa 61:6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves. What does that have to do with Jesus?!? What does it have to do with a Nation? Are you saying the entire nation of Israel/Jacob shall be Priest and ministers of God?

How can one man be called 'priests' or 'ministers'. Singular versus plural.

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Good, then you will agree with Peter your Jewish Brother who walked with Yeshua…

No brother of mine. He was an apostate.

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1 Peter 2: 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: 10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. Quote Quote Read the Gospels and you will see he litterally fulfilled the prophesy. But then you dont believe the Gospel message do you. Neither did the Sadussees believe him. Sad U See. You said… Quote Its not a prophecy . I heard you the first time. Quote You say… Quote Therefore the proper terminology is that they did not even acknowledge him and most still do not. If anyone knows messianic prophecies they know Jesus was not the end time Moschiach. Well you should talk to the disciples and the thousands of followers that did know the Messianic prophecys. These were true Jews. Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, taught by the best of his day, but of course you dont like Paul for I am sure his writings are the most convicting of all. You said… Quote They don't convict because they are the words of a self-loathing apostate Jew. Nothing more. His words go against the whole of the Tanakh and are thus the first to be rejected by any Jew who knows a lick of Hebrew bible. Check with your Hebrew brothers again. I am sure that Paul knew a whole lot more than you about the Tanakh. You said… Quote Paul was an apostate who wanted power and followers for himself. Yes for you it has to be that way, or it would leave you as an unsaved Jew (If you are a Jew). But yours are empty words which have no proof. There are thousands of manuscripts that disagree with you.

Thousands of Christian manuscripts. What does that prove? Bias?

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You said.. Quote He took Judaism and threw in various elements from the popular pagan mythologies of the region to come up with Christianity. Paul on more than one occasion said that this was 'my gospel'. Your opinion, with no proof.

No proof? Do you read your bible?

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

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Quote I am starting to think you are jeolous that he didnt stay on your side, “killing the Christians”, well not physically I suppose. You said… Quote Please prove that outside of the Christian bible that Jews ever killed Christians. History shows that Rome killed Christians. Nice try though. I dont have to prove anything, but if I did I dont need to go outside of scriptures like you do.

Of course. Your are set in your (false) belief. You prove Harry Potter with Harry Potter.

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Quote Quote But most Jews still “reject him”, however God will always have a remnant that will accept him. You have to admit not all Jews hold your belief. In fact their are plenty that dont. You said… Quote As I said no rejection. I don't reject Bill Gates as messiah any more than I (or Jews) reject Jesus as messiah. Neither fulfilled messianic prophecies, neither has the lineage to sit on the throne of David. So you say. But you do reject Yeshua and Paul and Peter and the GT of the NT. Besides, whats the play on words here? You do not believe Yeshua was the Messiah, right? Then you reject him as the Messiah. This is not sticks and stones will break my bones is it? Geesh. You said… Quote You don't get it do you? I said I don't reject Jesus any more than Bill Gates. Because neither qualifies to be Messiah neither is even considered. To reject would be to consider. I just simply do not believe because there is nothing to believe. No you dont get it. You have convinced yourself that Yeshua is not the Messiah and that you cant reject someone you do not believe in. But to believers and followers of Christ, you have rejected the Messiah and have failed to prove that he isnt the one.

Really? Seems my presence here has rocked this board like no other. People are voting on things on this board because of me. You could say Stu too but he was here long before I came. People are scared. I do not bring lies I bring Tanakh.

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Quote Again, maybe you should check some of these out… Quote http://www.cjfm.org/ http://jewsforjesus.org/ http://www.ifcj.org/site/PageServer You said… Quote Those are posers. They are made up of either evangelicals trying to pretend they have Jewish heritage or Jews who never paid attention to their own Hebrew scriptures. And you? Where is your credentials? You said… Quote Never said I had any. I just use the Tanakh to show Jesus cannot be the Moshiach. I don't have to have special credentials to point out the obvious. Of course you dont have any credentials. You come here to try and “Prove” to the Christians that Yeshua and the GT is a myth by using the very Bible that we base our life on.

Yep.

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You havent proven a thing. You have only given us your opinions and interpretations. Somehow you think that if you can quote some scriptures from the Tanakh or show some ambiguity in the Bible that you can steal the faith out of a Christians heart. You may be successful in decieving some. If they are Yeshuas though they will be back, for they know his voice and another they will not follow.

They are scared of hellfire, plain and simple. Once you realize that hellfire is a lie then you no longer live in fear of it. From there you can see the truth clearly.

Fear. Its what keeps Christianity strong.

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Quote This truly shows you are in denial. There are many, many Jewish people who probably know more about the Hebrew scriptures than you do and because of this believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Did you even look at those sights? Thats only a few. You said… Quote I've looked long ago. They are basically evangelical sites with a Jewish dust cover. What's sad is that much of what they try to practice in their pretend Messianic Christianity is rabbinic and comes from the Talmud! Still in denial.

Nope. You are. Ever even read your 'old testament'?

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Quote Quote You say… Quote Think of it this way. Rejecting Jesus as the Messiah would be like rejecting the Chicago Cubs for the football playoffs. Since they are a baseball team they would not qualify. Jesus did not qualify to be the Jewish Moshiach. Poor analogy. When the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah then you might have a case. You said… Quote How is it poor? The Cubs can't play football any more than Jesus could be the Messiah. Neither is qualified for the job. Yes POOR analogy. Again. Tell me about it when the Cubs are crucified for claiming to be the Messiah. You said… Quote I don't mean to insult but you get less than the others on here. You are so blinded you cannot see obvious things . Your patronizing goes no where with me my friend. I am used to it, been on this board for a long time. You said… Quote I was showing that the Cubs have just as much credentials to play in the football playoffs as Jesus has of being the Jewish Messiah. Zero. Do we have to crucify some Cubs players for you to understand? But while we're talking of his death, the very fact that he died before fulfilling a single messianic prophecy shows he does not qualify. I understand completely. That somehow you believe that you can prove that Yeshua didnt fulfill a Prophesy by quoting a few scriptures from the Tanakh. But you cant steal the Faith out of a believers heart. LOL.

No you are right. I can't make anyone stop believing in the biggest lie in history. But every soul I deliver from idol worship will be one more that stops worshiping idols.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Tow

You forgot to address this part of my post…

You said…Quote  
No because Christians override Moses and David with their own Christian bible. [/quote]

I Said…

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What are you saying? That the God of the NT is greater than YHWH. Seems to me that the YHWH of the Hebrew scriptures has always made himself known. Has he gone into hiding after Christ appeared? HMMM. Where is the Prophets and Judges that say “Thus saith the Lord? Is YHWH asleep?

Dosnt it seem strange or odd to you that YHWH has not spoken or revealed himself by a Prophet or Judge since about 400 years before Christ?

Yet YHWH is being preached by the Messianic Jews and the Christians since the first century.

[Towshab]

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Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Nov. 24 2007,22:56) Tow You forgot to address this part of my post… You said…Quote No because Christians override Moses and David with their own Christian bible. I Said… Quote What are you saying? That the God of the NT is greater than YHWH. Seems to me that the YHWH of the Hebrew scriptures has always made himself known. Has he gone into hiding after Christ appeared? HMMM. Where is the Prophets and Judges that say “Thus saith the Lord? Is YHWH asleep? Dosnt it seem strange or odd to you that YHWH has not spoken or revealed himself by a Prophet or Judge since about 400 years before Christ? Yet YHWH is being preached by the Messianic Jews and the Christians since the first century.

No Jesus is being preached by Messianics and Christians. 80% or more of Christians don't know who YHVH is. All they know is Jesus and 'god the father'.

The Tanakh has revealed what needs to be known about G-d. The GT is a book that took passages from the Tanakh out of context and twisted them to fool people into thinking a dead rebel is the Jewish Messiah.

[david]

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No Jesus is being preached by Messianics and Christians. 80% or more of Christians don't know who YHVH is. All they know is Jesus and 'god the father'.

Right, Jesus correctly predicted that there would be an apostasy soon after his leaving:
MATTHEW 13:24-30
“The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’””
MATTHEW 13:36-39
“Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.”

Also:
MATTHEW 7:15-16
““Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep’s covering, but inside they are ravenous wolves. By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?”

MATTHEW 24:11
“And many false prophets will arise and mislead many;”

One of the first wrong things they did involved the removal of God's name, which made the trinity doctrine much easier to accept.

[david]

Quote

Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them.

–towshab.

Where did you do this towshab? Could you please point to the page where you have “gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled.”

Because I have asked you to do this. Whenever such lists are presented, you just scoff and say that someone got them off the internet and they're the same lists. Could you please actually do what you claim to do.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,17:33)

Quote Prove it? I've already gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled and I show that (1) they were not messianic prophecies and (2) he didn't fulfill them. –towshab. Where did you do this towshab? Could you please point to the page where you have “gone through 2 lists of 40 supposed prophecies Jesus was supposed to have fulfilled.” Because I have asked you to do this. Whenever such lists are presented, you just scoff and say that someone got them off the internet and they're the same lists. Could you please actually do what you claim to do.

First list refuted as presented by Morningstar. You can start here.

Second list with many similar items as presented by Kenrch refuted here.

Both start toward the bottom of the page. The latest list you gave looks to covered in both of those but I'm not certain all of the items are.

[david]

Both “URL's” are “not found.” hmmmm.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 26 2007,19:24)

Both “URL's” are “not found.” hmmmm.

Odd. Here try these.

(1) Morningstar list refuted

(2) Kenreich list refuted

[david]

Isaiah – Chapter 53 (Judaica Press)

1. Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed?
2. And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him?
3. Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account.
4. Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed.
5. But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed.
6. We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us.
7. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.
8. From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them.
9. And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
10. And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand.
11. From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear.
12. Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.

[david]

The above is quoted from the Judaica Press (which apparently, Jews can trust.)

To me, it seems that Jewish people will say just about anything about the above to save themselves from admitting that it applies to the Christ. It's Israel, it's some rabbi, it's all an alegory, or whatever. But the obvious is undeniable.

“because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors.”–verse 12.

[david]

Since the geneological records were destroyed in 70 C.E. (and no one has been able to show me any geneological records) it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else who came after 70 C.E. to claim to be the Messiah.

It's foolish to say that the geneology isn't important, because all through the Bible, that thread runs, all through the Bible, the line.

It is one of the prophecies that would be fulfilled in the Messiah. And, strangely, (unless I'm missing something) we apparently have no way to prove that anyone now is the Messiah.

I think this favors that if the Bible is correct, it is obvious that the messiah would have come in time to actually fulfill that prophecy.

[Towshab]

Quote (david @ Nov. 29 2007,01:13)

Since the geneological records were destroyed in 70 C.E. (and no one has been able to show me any geneological records) it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone else who came after 70 C.E. to claim to be the Messiah. It's foolish to say that the geneology isn't important, because all through the Bible, that thread runs, all through the Bible, the line. It is one of the prophecies that would be fulfilled in the Messiah. And, strangely, (unless I'm missing something) we apparently have no way to prove that anyone now is the Messiah. I think this favors that if the Bible is correct, it is obvious that the messiah would have come in time to actually fulfill that prophecy.

Uh no. Show me scripture that reveals that King Messiah will have to provide his lineage. The prophecy (or promise) is that King Messiah will come through the lineage of David and Solomon, not that they will have to provide a genealogical record. So this is a nonstarter.

You may come back and say “well Jesus provided his”. That was not necessary. In fact it would have been better had the two genealogies not been listed at all! It just gives one reason to refute the claim.

The fact is, Jesus did not fulfill a single prophecy of King Messiah. Had he done so there would be something to talk about. But throwing in genealogies in a lame effort to prove his messiahship was the gospel writers ideas. The gospels are full of phrases like 'this was done to fulfill the prophecy'. Again just another poor effort to try to prove something that is not real.

Had Jesus been King Messiah the Jews would have known. Instead he was just another failed messiah and at best a good teacher sans the pagan things written about him.

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