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Hi Tim2,
Do you keep good company?
Fellowshiping with rebellion is not good for you.
It can corrupt your morals but abiding in the scriptures means you fellowship with the Father and the Son [2Jn].
The Spirit of God did not leave Christ at death.
The Spirit is a gift given forever.
Christ died and his own spirit, that of the monogenes son of God left him at calvary.
He really died that he might come alive in the Spirit of God and we can follow him into his death and resurrection through repentance and baptism of water and the Spirit so that all may be one in Christ in God.
That is the hope of the gospel.
Avoid the wrath of God.
Repent.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,05:02) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 13 2007,11:28) Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,06:29) Tim, Paul says there is one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4, 12:11, 12:13.
Likewise, in Romans 8 Paul only mentions one Spirit, but he calls Him both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9-10.
There is only one Spirit, and He's clearly a person if He's a Helper, is always called “He” and “Himself” and never “It,” refers to Himself as “I” and “Me,” He does just as He wills, is called the Lord (and the Lord is a person), and so forth.
Tim
Actually Tim2,If you read the Greek interlineary and not the KJV of the bible you will see that the Spirit is always referred to as It, itself or the Greek word autos which means ” the same” if it is referred to more than once in the same sentence.
The translators added the pro nouns that you describe, if they are there.
Tim
TimAlso I find it interesting that you just put up an argument that the Spirit, Comforter “parakletos” is Jesus Spirit and now you are saying the Spirit is an it.
What exactly do you believe?
Hi worshippingJesus.In Jn 16:7 Jesus did not say he would send a spirit,
He said that He would send a comforter. That is why the Greek interlineary calls the comforter a him.It was I that said I believe the comforter is the spirit of Jesus.
What does that have to do with what I said that scriptures call a spirit?I will give you an example WorshippingJesus.
First here is a verse from the KJV.
Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Now here is the Greek interlineary concordance.
Whenever yet may be coming that the spirit of the truth, it shall be guiding ye in the truth all,
Not for it shall be speaking………………………………Notice “it shall be speaking”
There are even some places in the KJV where the translator actually slipped up and forgot to say He, Him, Himself etc. when referring to the Spirit. One of those is found in Romans.
Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.Notice, the Spirit itself maketh intercession.
Why didn't it say the spirit himself. WorshippingJesus?
who are you going to rebuke for calling the spirit an it?The point is, there are times in the bible when God is called the Holy Spirit. Those times the Spirit would always be given a personal pronoun. There are other times when God sends His spirit. In my mind that spirit is an it.
I could be wrong. I am always trying to learn where my understanding may be a little shakey.
Tim
Quote (TimothyVI @ April 14 2007,11:41) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 14 2007,05:02) Quote (TimothyVI @ April 13 2007,11:28) Quote (Tim2 @ April 13 2007,06:29) Tim, Paul says there is one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4, 12:11, 12:13.
Likewise, in Romans 8 Paul only mentions one Spirit, but he calls Him both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. Romans 8:9-10.
There is only one Spirit, and He's clearly a person if He's a Helper, is always called “He” and “Himself” and never “It,” refers to Himself as “I” and “Me,” He does just as He wills, is called the Lord (and the Lord is a person), and so forth.
Tim
Actually Tim2,If you read the Greek interlineary and not the KJV of the bible you will see that the Spirit is always referred to as It, itself or the Greek word autos which means ” the same” if it is referred to more than once in the same sentence.
The translators added the pro nouns that you describe, if they are there.
Tim
TimAlso I find it interesting that you just put up an argument that the Spirit, Comforter “parakletos” is Jesus Spirit and now you are saying the Spirit is an it.
What exactly do you believe?
Hi worshippingJesus.In Jn 16:7 Jesus did not say he would send a spirit,
He said that He would send a comforter. That is why the Greek interlineary calls the comforter a him.It was I that said I believe the comforter is the spirit of Jesus.
What does that have to do with what I said that scriptures call a spirit?I will give you an example WorshippingJesus.
First here is a verse from the KJV.
Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Now here is the Greek interlineary concordance.
Whenever yet may be coming that the spirit of the truth, it shall be guiding ye in the truth all,
Not for it shall be speaking………………………………Notice “it shall be speaking”
There are even some places in the KJV where the translator actually slipped up and forgot to say He, Him, Himself etc. when referring to the Spirit. One of those is found in Romans.
Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.Notice, the Spirit itself maketh intercession.
Why didn't it say the spirit himself. WorshippingJesus?
who are you going to rebuke for calling the spirit an it?The point is, there are times in the bible when God is called the Holy Spirit. Those times the Spirit would always be given a personal pronoun. There are other times when God sends His spirit. In my mind that spirit is an it.
I could be wrong. I am always trying to learn where my understanding may be a little shakey.
Tim
TimI believe you are wrong.
Just my opinion!
Would you call Jesus and the Father an it just because the same word is used for it in a few places regarding the Holy Spirit.
“autos” Again is used in over 5000 places and almost all are refering to a person or persons and many of these the Father and Yeshua.
him 1952, his 1084, their 318, he 252, her 242, they 121, same 80, himself 58, misc 1678; 5785
I guess we will have to disagree. But the Spirit is a person.
Its plain in scriptures. There is One Spirit.
You say…
Quote The point is, there are times in the bible when God is called the Holy Spirit. Those times the Spirit would always be given a personal pronoun. There are other times when God sends His spirit. In my mind that spirit is an it. So it seems to me by this statement you think there is God who is Spirit and the Spirit that he sends.
Seems like more than one Spirit to me.
You see the only way to reconcile these scriptures is the Trinitarian view.
How do you reconcile the folowing scriptures?
Rom 8:
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?2 Cor 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.1 Cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to *drink into one Spirit*.Eph 2:18
For through him we both have access *by one Spirit* unto the Father.Eph 4:4
There is one body, and *ONE Spirit*, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?Jn 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;Jn 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.As you can see these scriptures state there is the Spirit of God, Spirit of Christ, the Spirit, Spirit of Him, His Spirit, Comforter all gloriously united together as One Spirit, which Paul calls the Spirit of God.
When someone accepts Jesus into their heart does the Spirit of Christ or God or the Comforter come to live in them?
How many Spirits do they recieve?
Blessings!
I would love to see this thread get back on topic
While the “Spirit” is an interesting topic, there must be a better board for it? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on “fully God, fully man.” Anyone?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 14 2007,17:24) I would love to see this thread get back on topic While the “Spirit” is an interesting topic, there must be a better board for it? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on “fully God, fully man.” Anyone?
Not3in1You are right.
Often threads get off topic. I suppose thats hard to controll seeing how dialogue takes so many turns.
WJ, I especially enjoy hearing from you, and Tim2 on these subjects of “fully God and fully Man” because, of course, you have different ideas than I do.
Even Nick and t8 have a different swing on this topic. It's a good topic. A favorite of mine
I hope we can get back into it. Thanks.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 14 2007,17:24) I would love to see this thread get back on topic While the “Spirit” is an interesting topic, there must be a better board for it? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on “fully God, fully man.” Anyone?
Jesus was fully God, but, for a time, set aside the prerogatives that went with deity and willing submitted to the limitations of man…(Philippians 2:6-8) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
here you have both your questions answered re Jesus being both God and man….
other passages asserting the deity of the Son are
(Hebrews 1:3) He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”
and
(Hebrews 2:10) For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.however, the author of Hebrews also remarks on Jesus' full humanity…
(Hebrews 2:14) Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
and
(Hebrews 2:17-18) Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.”well… hope that helps…. however, given your screen name, I hope you can forgive me if I have some doubts
blessings,
KenHi E,
So as God his God was greater than him?
John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.Epi – it all helps! I was a dedicated Trinitarian until the latter part of 2003. I was raised in the Assembly of God church, and in the doctrine of the Trinity. So, I know the verses that you hold dear, and the verses that you cling to in hopes of explaining the triune god you serve.
I have compassion on those who have not taken the time to do the research. You can quote John 1:1, and Philippians 2:5 all day long; but at the end of the day……the Trinity doctrine still evolved over many hundreds of years. It was not and is not written in the scriptures.
There are NO VERSES in the bible that say God is three. Actually, there is a verse in the KJV that states the Trinity doctrine clearly, but wait! they found out it was a corruption. That to me, speaks volumes about the doctrine. And history speaks volumes.
But I know you will contend for the Trinity. As I contend for my Father being One. But it's all good. And it all helps. We learn from one another. We may not convince one another, but we always learn from one another.
still haven't grasped this basic point yet either ehh Nick? 😉 how many times do you have to ask the same question? I mean, it is not as if the Trinitarians answer to your question in this particular regard is complex or difficult to follow. Why not just say you know what the Trinitarians answer is (the economic Trinity, differing roles with the Trinity does not necessitate inequality as far as ontology is concerned) and say you disagree with it…??? its just a bit dishonest to keep asking questions that have been graciously and patiently answered for you time and time again…. its just like husbands and wives are equal to one another…. yet, in the economy of the household, the husband is “greater” in that he is the head of the household… his being greater in this way does not mean that men are inherently superior to women…. rather its a matter of the roles they have… and so too is it the case for all the “the father is greater than I (Jesus) type of statements in the Scriptures…. the Son willingly humbled Himself to take upon Himself the role of the suffering servant, even to the obedience of dying on the Cross…. but that hardly means that it automatically follows that he is therefore less than God as to the very nature of his being is concerned….
now, can you simply say you disagree with this perfectly logical and biblically faithful answer rather than pretend the answer never came at all?
God the Father was great than Jesus, not in his ontological status as God… in that sense, He was equal to the Father, as He elsewhere claims in Scripture…. however, in so far as the economic aspect of His role to play in the salvation of sinners, Jesus willingly submitted to the Father as He took upon Himself the form of a servant, and went to the Cross to bear the sins of His people….
(Philippians 2:6-8) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
what is there you do not understand?
remember, I am not asking you to agree…. no… that is far too great a thing to ask for I know…. rather, a simple admittance of understanding your theological opponents, will go a long way towards showing your good faith in these discussions…. otherwise you are just being intentionally and willfully obstinate…. and that is a very un-Christian and uncharitable thing to do Nick…..
blessings,
KenEpi writes:
rather its a matter of the roles they have… and so too is it the case for all the “the father is greater than I (Jesus) type of statements in the Scriptures…
******************************Jesus never talked about “roles” and so I've never read this lesson. It sounds foreign to me, I'm sorry. It also sounds complicated. Something I'm sure the disciples would have never grasped. Maybe that's why Jesus never told them? I don't know….
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2007,16:03) Epi – it all helps! I was a dedicated Trinitarian until the latter part of 2003. I was raised in the Assembly of God church, and in the doctrine of the Trinity. So, I know the verses that you hold dear, and the verses that you cling to in hopes of explaining the triune god you serve. I have compassion on those who have not taken the time to do the research. You can quote John 1:1, and Philippians 2:5 all day long; but at the end of the day……the Trinity doctrine still evolved over many hundreds of years. It was not and is not written in the scriptures.
There are NO VERSES in the bible that say God is three. Actually, there is a verse in the KJV that states the Trinity doctrine clearly, but wait! they found out it was a corruption. That to me, speaks volumes about the doctrine. And history speaks volumes.
But I know you will contend for the Trinity. As I contend for my Father being One. But it's all good. And it all helps. We learn from one another. We may not convince one another, but we always learn from one another.
I am glad to know it not3in1!! for I held to some of the beliefs you seem to hold during the early 90's, spending a great deal of time with the JW's, the Mormons, the Oneness Pentecostals and other anti-non-trinitarian groups…. I eventually, through much study and prayer, came to see the error of these groups and found that the doctrine of the Trinity is solidly biblical and best comports with all the biblical data….so please don't patronize me with the “I came to see the error of my ways through study and prayer” or “I used to believe as you do but now I know better” malarkey…. the reverse is all too easily said of those positions by persons like myself who were not raised in Christian homes, who have no social or theological ties to uphold by believing in the doctrine of the Trinity, and who have some to their beliefs “honestly”… believing it NOT because some creed taught it, not because someone somewhere once upon a time in a galaxy far far away told them/me to believe it because they said so….. not for any other reason then because persons like myself, after much study and much prayer came to believe that the doctrine of the Trinity is biblical… nothing less, nothing more… so if you expect me to take you seriously… that you have come by your beliefs “honestly”, then I expect the same treatment from you, and not uncritically, simply because someone told me to believe it….
blessings,
KenI think I understand your theology, Epi. I've been studying it practically non-stop for nearly 4 years now.
Funny, though, how I've read books that are almost 3 inches thick and at the end it says……”No one can fully understand the Trinity.” And this is from a book that is titled, “Understanding the Trinity.” Go figure.
See, the thing is, you have to use so much un-biblical vocabulary (economic, ontology and so on) to explain your belief. It's just really hard to swallow when you can look at 1 Cor. 8:6 and go, “Oh! OK!”
MALARKEY – Now there's a word we don't hear enough!
My Dad used to say this all the time. Usually when I would give him a long, long story as to why I didn't come home on time! Ha!Epi – I'll say the same thing to you that a dear member said to me not too long ago……lighten up!
No disrespect was intended. You feel you came to your belief honestly – I believe I came to my belief honestly – so does everyone on this board! And I have quite counting how many differing beliefs there are.
So, hold fast to what is true. And may God bless you as you do!
Hi E,
So there is an economic and ontological trinity?
Does the committee have to change hats when they swap from one to another?Quote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2007,16:21) Epi writes:
rather its a matter of the roles they have… and so too is it the case for all the “the father is greater than I (Jesus) type of statements in the Scriptures…
******************************Jesus never talked about “roles” and so I've never read this lesson. It sounds foreign to me, I'm sorry. It also sounds complicated. Something I'm sure the disciples would have never grasped. Maybe that's why Jesus never told them? I don't know….
you err in not knowing the Scriptures if this is what you think….(John 8:28) So Jesus said to them, “When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
(John 16:12-14) “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”
The Father sends the Son to become fully man, to live a perfect sinless life, to die on the Cross for sins He never committed, and in turn the Son sends the Spirit…. to cause the disciples to remember Jesus' words and recount them faithfully to the coming generations of Christians….. and Jesus sends the Spirit into those who follow Him…
(John 14:16-18) And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you. “I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.”
so really, you don't have to look very hard at all to see the differing roles the Father, Son and Spirit had, not inly in salvation… but in creation as well… this is something that not only the disciples could have understood, but even their children could have as well 😉
blessings,
KenQuote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2007,16:26) I think I understand your theology, Epi. I've been studying it practically non-stop for nearly 4 years now. Funny, though, how I've read books that are almost 3 inches thick and at the end it says……”No one can fully understand the Trinity.” And this is from a book that is titled, “Understanding the Trinity.” Go figure.
See, the thing is, you have to use so much un-biblical vocabulary (economic, ontology and so on) to explain your belief. It's just really hard to swallow when you can look at 1 Cor. 8:6 and go, “Oh! OK!”
I think I understand your theology pretty well as well 3in1… I have a degree from Grace College and Seminary where I double minored in Apologetics and Systematic Theology, as well as studying the beliefs of anti-trinitarians for nearly 20 years now…secondly the idea that the word “Trinity” does not appear in the bible, nor the words, “economic” or “ontology” are immature objections at best, and downright stupid at worst… the reason is this, the Bible was not originally written in English… right? Therefore there are many many words used to translate Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek words that English has no direct translation for…. thus, according to the reasoning “it can't be a biblical concept because the word in question does not appear in the Bible” would serve to undermine all English versions of the Bible which all use words not originally found in the original biblical languages….
further, I don't see you responding to people in conversations online, and I doubt you do this in practice in spoken conversation either, making sure that you use only those words which actually appear in the Bible to explain the Bible…. so every time you use a word that might not explicitly appear in the English bible to try and explain some doctrine, (never mind the trinity, any belief that you have concerning what the Scriptures mean), or use a word that might not have an exact word for word equivalent from the Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, you have broken your own rules concerning communication of biblical truths…
so my suggestion is to either abandon such foolish reasoning, or limit your vocabulary to only those words found in the original manuscripts which were in fact originally penned by the biblical authors themselves…. and if you don't know Hebrew, Aramaic or Koine Greek…. this is likely to mean that you will remain silent for along time to come….
blessings,
KenQuote (Not3in1 @ April 16 2007,16:32) Epi – I'll say the same thing to you that a dear member said to me not too long ago……lighten up! No disrespect was intended. You feel you came to your belief honestly – I believe I came to my belief honestly – so does everyone on this board! And I have quite counting how many differing beliefs there are.
So, hold fast to what is true. And may God bless you as you do!
hey, I'll be glad to lighten up just as soon as you lighten up in your criticisms of my beliefs…. if you say my beliefs are unbiblical, then I take that charge very seriously… if you merely disagree with my beliefs, well thats something else entirely, I know full well the vast number of variations in belief systems…. but saying that you disagree is really quite different then saying that you believe my beliefs to be unscriptural, and I hope you can be honest enough to look back at the relatively few posts you have written to me to know that this is exactly what you have been saying about my beliefs… not mere disagreement, but positive claims to my beliefs being unbiblical…blessings,
Ken
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