Fully God, Fully Man

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 06 2007,10:36)

I wrote the following in the Trinity thread as the conclusion to a discussion that started on page 644 of that thread:

Quote

Tim2 and Is 1:18,

OK Gents, since you aren't going to play my little game fairly, (as you both continue to use an argument that I specifically countered on page 652, without addressing my counterargument), I suppose that I should be more straightforward with you. My “tri-natured” Christ doctrine was an attempt to demonstrate what I believe to be true of all Trinitarians: that you believe what you do because you have been told that it is important to believe it, and not because scripture demands it.

I am sure that you both will object to this claim but I will attempt to prove it by taking the most crucial element of your doctrine and showing that it not only is unsubstantiated in scripture but actually goes against scripture! Though it certainly is pertinent to this thread, I will start a new thread called “Fully God, Fully Man”. I look forward to reading your responses to my supposition there.

The belief that after his “incarnation”, Jesus became forever and always both fully God and fully man is clearly one of the most crucial elements of the Trinity doctrine – if not, in fact, the most crucial issue. It is the one escape clause that Trinitarians rely upon to explain what would otherwise be scriptural conundrums in regard to their doctrine. Specifically, whenever Jesus is shown to do, or say, something that demonstrates his humanity, Trinitarians claim that it only reinforces the “fully man” portion of their doctrine and does not negate the “fully God” portion of their doctrine. Accordingly, unless one can show them a scripture that says, “Jesus is not God”, their doctrine remains scripturally compliant, as far as they are concerned. “Scripture claims that he is God and that he is man, so clearly that supports our assertion that he is fully God and fully man, all the time“, they would claim, but there is actually a much bigger leap between what scripture says, and what they assert, than they ever acknowledge. Let's take a look at the official doctrine:

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead (excerpted from the Athanasian creed).

(I am aware that some Protestant Trinitarians object to the idea that their beliefs come from creeds, but if one objects to anything in the above quote, I would suggest that one is essentially not a true Trinitarian. That notwithstanding, if you call yourself a Trinitarian, but you have objections to any portion of this excerpt, I would ask that you make note of it in your response.)

So to summarize, according to the creed, Jesus is:

1) perfect God and perfect man
2) not two, but one [person]
3) one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God
4) one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

Here's the first problem:

Aside from the clarification in item 2, can any of these claims be substantianted by scripture? Is there a single verse that proclaims these supposed truths about Jesus?

Trinitarians claim that their doctrine is merely a compilation of truths readily found in scripture, yet these idea are completely foreign to it's pages.

Trinitarians, do you even dispute this?

Here's the second problem:

While Trinitarians are often pressed to call upon the “fully man” portion of their doctrine, as there are many scriptures that beg this question, Trinitarians are not often enough called upon to defend the “fully God” portion of their beliefs. Yet, according to their doctrine, Jesus never ceases to be fully God at any time, so anything that is true of Jesus, the person, is true of him both as God and man. For example, if it is true that Jesus saves, then he saves us both as God and man, not exclusively as one or the other. So, what exactly does it mean to be “fully God”?

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)?

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?

How can one who is fully God exhibit these traits? If we say that he was limited by his human nature, whether voluntarily or otherwise, not only do we offend the precise language of the creed – “…not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God…” – but we make the absurd claim that someone who is fully God can be fully contained within the finite and frail existence of a human being. No, either Jesus is fully God all the time, or he is not. Scripture cries out against the idea, yet Trinitarians assert it anyway.

Trinitarians, how do you account for this blatantly unscriptural plank in your doctrine?

Response to WIT Fully God Fully man, Part two.

WIT

You say…

Quote

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?

You think he was powerless because he says he came to do the Fathers will?

The one who calmed the storms and seas and walked on water and healed all manner of sickness Etc, Etc, Etc.

So was he a puppet on a string to you that had no life or power of his own? Was he just an empty vessel that the Father worked through and he did nothing? Powerless?

What does these scriptures mean to you…
Heb 10:
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Do you notice the “I”, Jesus chose to leave his Glory he shared with the Father to become our sacrific
e, this was the mutual love shared with the Father and the Word, the Father sent and the Word came. Is that powereless. He made the choice.

Jn 10:
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. “ I have power to lay it down”, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Jn 5:
17] But Jesus answered them, “My Father worketh” hitherto, and I work.
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (Is this Powerless?)
[20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.[/I]

Do you see the power Jesus had? The Father shows Christ all things and he has the power to carry out what he sees the Father do. Even to lay down his life and to take it up again. Jesus does nothing without the Father true, but the Father does nothing without Jesus, including the Creation of all things.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had **by himself** purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

That’s Power!

You say…

Quote

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?

I reiterate His wisdom and knowledge that was in him at birth “grew” as he got older until he knew all that the Father had given him from before the foundation of the world, when it was all made by him and for him. By the time he was in his thirtys we read the following…

Jn 16:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 *All things* that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that **he shall take of mine**, and shall shew it unto you.

He had been given “all things”, and by the scriptures above that would include all wisdom and knowledge. Col 2:3

You say…

Quote

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?

Surely you are not incinuating Jesus was not perfect? He is and was the Spotless Lamb of God, the perfect sacrifice.

Jn 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

Heb 4:15
For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Do you think the writer of Hebrews would write he had no sin and then in the next chapter say he needed perfecting?

Heb 5:
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made *perfect*, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

He was tempted like we were and learned what it was to be a man and submit in obedience through his sufferings

“Perfect” Greek, ‘teleioo’ which means;
1) to make perfect, complete
a) to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end
2) to complete (perfect)
a) add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full
b) to be found perfect
3) to bring to the end (goal) proposed
4) to accomplish
a) bring to a close or fulfilment by event
1)of the prophecies of the scriptures

He carried out completely the will of the Father and fulfilled all the scriptures concerning himself so he could be a our High Priest after the order of Melchisedec. Jesus was the perfect sinless Lamb , the only only perfecting he needed was the carrying out the Fathers will.

You say…

Quote

Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?

This is an easy one. The Word/God did not die. Jesus the Eternal Spirit that was with the Father could not die. His body died.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The life of the flesh is in the blood. When Jesus gave up the ghost it was the life in his flesh and blood. His Spirit went to hades for three days and three nights. The body of God died. Acts 20:28
1 Peter 3:18, Eph 4:8,9
Jesus was the resurrection and the life. This is how that he could raise himself up from the grave. Yet we know that God raised him also. That is because they are One.

It was the offering of his body that fulfilled the law of God. His blood was spilled and we are saved by it. Heb 10:10

Why would Jesus eternal Spirit die. Ours dosnt. Paul says…

2 Cor 5:
1. For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2.For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3.If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4.For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5.Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6.Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7.(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8.We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord

You say…

Quote

How can one who is fully God exhibit these traits? If we say that he was limited by his human nature, whether voluntarily or otherwise, not only do we offend the precise language of the creed – “…not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God…” – but we make the absurd claim that someone who is fully God can be fully contained within the finite and frail existence of a human being. No, either Jesus is fully God all the time, or he is not. Scripture cries out against the idea, yet Trinitarians assert it anyway.

Trinitarians, how do you account for this blatantly unscriptural plank in your doctrine?

Again if the creed agrees great if not I accept the scriptures I have shown. Jesus is/was God in the flesh.
By faith I believe it and accept the words of Thomas that he is my Lord and My God also.
Blessings

April 10, 2007 at 5:22 am#48281

Proclaimer

Participant

Fully God, Fully Man.

Hmmmmm

That makes him 100% of either, i.e., a 200% being.

But God is not a man and we know that the Father is greater than the son.

So if Jesus is God and Man and the Father is God only, then Christ is in one sense greater than his Father. Of course scripture doesn't teach this and therefore such conclusions are in the realm of mens heads.

:blues:

April 10, 2007 at 5:37 am#48283

Participant

Quote (t8 @ April 10 2007,17:22)

Fully God, Fully Man.

Hmmmmm

That makes him 100% of either, i.e., a 200% being.

But God is not a man and we know that the Father is greater than the son.

:blues:

Easy to make a statement like that without showing me where my interpretation of the scriptures I present are wrong.

But of course that is you way.

:blues:

April 10, 2007 at 6:35 pm#48310

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2007,17:37)

Quote (t8 @ April 10 2007,17:22)

Fully God, Fully Man.

Hmmmmm

That makes him 100% of either, i.e., a 200% being.

But God is not a man and we know that the Father is greater than the son.

:blues:

Easy to make a statement like that without showing me where my interpretation of the scriptures I present are wrong.

But of course that is you way.

:blues:

Jer 32:27
Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: **is there any thing too hard for me**?

Lk 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Lk 18:27
And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

So tell me, do you believe it is impossible for God who is the God of “All” flesh to take on a body and be in the likeness of sinfull flesh that he might stay true to the following words?

Hsa 13:4
Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and “thou shalt *know* no god but me”: for there is *no Saviour beside me*.

Read the following and see if you can see your Saviour in these words. Hint, its in bold!

Isa 45:
18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That **unto me** every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom 14:11, Phil 2:11

April 10, 2007 at 6:57 pm#48315

Participant

Hi W,
We do not research the realm of the possible.
We study the God given Revelation for truth.
The Son of God came
as a vessel for God.

April 10, 2007 at 7:09 pm#48319

Participant

Hi Nick,

“The Son of God came as a vessel for God.” On what basis do you make this inference?

Tim

April 10, 2007 at 7:16 pm#48323

Participant

Hi Tim2,
No inference.
2cor 5
” 19To wit, that God was IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Col1
“19For it pleased the Father that IN HIM should all fulness dwell;”
Col2
“9For IN HIM dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”

April 10, 2007 at 7:30 pm#48335

Participant

Still an inference Nick. A much bigger one than that Jesus is God.

April 10, 2007 at 7:32 pm#48337

Participant

Hi Tim2,
Really.
Need new specs?

April 10, 2007 at 7:32 pm#48338

Participant

Hi Tim2,
Who was the God, the Deity Who was IN CHRIST?

April 10, 2007 at 7:37 pm#48345

Participant

Hi Nick,

Well, the Word was God, the Word became flesh, so we know the Word, God, was in Christ. Jesus also says that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, so I would say the Father was also present in Him. And the Spirit also descended on Him during His baptism, so I would say the Spirit was also in Him.

Tim

April 10, 2007 at 7:39 pm#48346

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 11 2007,07:32)

Hi Tim2,
Who was the God, the Deity Who was IN CHRIST?

Tell us. Because you say that it could not be the Father for he was in heaven.

So what God is in Christ NH?

April 10, 2007 at 8:12 pm#48354

Participant

Hi W,
If you knew God and His Spirit you would not ask.

April 10, 2007 at 8:53 pm#48363

Participant

Quote (Tim2 @ April 11 2007,07:37)

Hi Nick,

Tim

hi Tim2,
So the Word, Christ, was in Christ??
Was he in himself?
hmmm

April 10, 2007 at 9:25 pm#48371

Participant

Hi Nick,

Sorry I misspoke. The Word was Christ. The Word possess the fullness of deity. The Word became flesh. Therefore the fullness of deity dwells bodily.

I don't see the word “vessel” anywhere in the Bible applied to Christ.

Tim

April 10, 2007 at 9:27 pm#48372

Participant

Hi Tim,
Make your mind up.
Was The Word in Christ or not?
If not how was your trinity god in Christ?

April 10, 2007 at 9:30 pm#48375

Participant

Hi Nick,

Thanks for giving me hard time for misspeaking

The Word is Christ. The Father and the Spirit are in Him and in each other.

Tim

April 10, 2007 at 9:31 pm#48378

Participant

Hi Tim 2,
So the trinity was not IN Christ?

April 10, 2007 at 9:32 pm#48379