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Tim2 wrote:
Quote Hi WIT, Well, since we know Jesus did not become less divine on earth, and His Godhead knew all things, was omniscient, immortal, etc., we know therefore that these verses refer to Jesus in His manhood, which grew and learned.
Tim
That sounds like a logical assertion, not a scriptural one. After all, these verses speak of Jesus, the one person. They do not make the distinction that you are making. Besides, what would Jesus “the man” need to know, or learn, that Jesus “the God” would not have been able to immediately impart to him at his “incarnation”? (Note how even the very notion turns him into two separate persons!)
Nice back pedal though.
Hi Tim 2,
You said
“Jesus knew. He knows all things. He chose not to know all things as part of His ministry. Jesus is also immortal, but He chose to die.”
To be immortal is to be incapable of death.
So what do you mean?Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2007,03:40) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 07 2007,07:21) Nick wrote: Quote Hi WIT,
You say
“These verses indicate that Jesus was in the flesh. “
So you accept that the vessel of the Son of God existed and came in the flesh?Wrong topic. If you really want to discuss this, meet me in the debate forum with a proper challenge.
OK WIT,
Can I please have an appointment to see you in the Son of God thread?
Well, since you asked so nicely …NO!
Seriously, Nick, we have already done this jig, so if you really want to tear apart my beliefs, you will have to do that in a forum that will force you to answer questions about your own.
No,
Jesus did not lie. He expressed the ignorance of his rational soul and mind. As far as His Godhead is concerned, he knew.
Tim
Quote (david @ April 06 2007,19:31) I guess you're going to get only silence and sidetracking and no actual answers to your unanswerable questions WIT. I assume that's because they have no answers from a trinitarian perspective. Looking at just one of those things:
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
One definition of “ignorant” is unaware, uninformed, for those who don't know or are ignorant of the meaning of that word. (I personally wouldn't have used that word because it also has much more negative connotations. But, does the word fit?)
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”
Was Jesus unaware of the day or the hour? No.So, the question the WJ and everyone has been avoiding:
How is this possible if he was fully God?How is this possible?
Anyone?
No.
I didn't think so.
And please, no more fallacious sidetracking.
Just continue to not answer the question, so it is obvious to the people on the fence that you don't have the answers and will never have them. Perhaps in a few hundred years, you can work them out, as your forfathers did with the trinity itself. But it won't be in God's word that you find the answers, but rather, in your philosophies.
Answers? Anyone?
No.
DavidLOL you are funny.
You own bible says the word was “A” God before his incarnation, and yet you will side with the unbelievers.
I will post when I am ready. I am not avoiding anything.
Like t8 says we move by the Spirit. Is there a timetable on this thread WIT?
The truth of Gods word will stand against any lies of hell!
Hi W,
Fortunately we have the scriptural teachings as a sure foundation
for discerning which are lies from hell.Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 07 2007,06:31) WorshippingJesus wrote: Quote Not3in1 Do you feel good about calling Yeshua these thing?.
Put it this way. If you were there would you say these things to Yeshua?
Jesus you are ignorant.
Jesus you are powerless.
Jesus you lack wisdom.
Jesus you need perfecting.
Jesus you cant be God and die.
Maybe you could say these things to him. I dont know.
But this truly makes me sick to my stomach to hear this coming from a professing child of God.
WorshippingJesus, are you a trained magician, because this is an excellent sleight of hand post?
First you misrepresent what I originally wrote, and then you profess great disgust over the false words that you put in mine, and Not3in1's, mouth – all the while ignoring the actual points that I was making! Well, just for your edification, allow me to rephrase my own words into the same format that you used so that you can critique them accurately. I would not hesistate in saying the following words to Yeshua:
Yeshua, you were ignorant of the time you would return to earth, as you clearly stated yourself, and I believe you, (Mark 12:32).
Yeshua, you were lacking in power, but your Father, and my Father, (John 20:17), has given you all power subject to Him (1 Corinthians 15:27-28).
Yeshua, you were lacking in wisdom, but you increased in wisdom so wonderfully that you both marvelled men and pleased God, (Luke 2:52).
Yeshua, though you were not sinful, you were not perfect when you were born into this world, but you were made perfect through your suffering, (Hebrews 5:9).
Yeshua, you, your whole person, were dead, but you were raised to life for the benefit of many, as you yourself said, (Revelations 2:8). And, I believe you.
Now, WorshippingJesus, is there anything in my words that you find objectionabale?
WhatistrueI cant put words in your mouth. That was what you said.
You call Yeshua ignorant, powerless, lacking wisdom, and unperfect, and mortal.
No. you have the sleight of hand for now you come back and reword what you said.
Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
How little honour and respect you have for our Lord to state…
Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)? Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?
Thats the way I see it.
Again I will answer you, however I get the feeling that no amount of scriptural truth saying Jesus is God and man will change your mind.
You tell Tim2 to repent. Really you are the one who needs to repent.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 07 2007,09:38) Hi W,
Fortunately we have the scriptural teachings as a sure foundation
for discerning which are lies from hell.
NHAmen!
WJ,
I certainly can't force you to understand what I am saying, so if you insist on misunderstanding me, that is your prerogative.
Quote Again I will answer you, however I get the feeling that no amount of scriptural truth saying Jesus is God and man will change your mind. If you understood my original post, you would realize that this has nothing to do with the issue that I raised. Allow me to restate my point, at the risk of wasting both of our times.
In order for Jesus to be fully God, he must be fully God all of the time!
The verses that I listed show that he could not have been fully God at those times. If your upcoming post negates the implication of those scriptures, it will be the first.
Tim2 wrote:
Quote No, Jesus did not lie. He expressed the ignorance of his rational soul and mind. As far as His Godhead is concerned, he knew.
Tim
So he was not God when he spoke?
Personally, I'd love to hear some other interpretations of those scriptures. The way WIT sees them is pretty staight forward, and I'm sure anyone can understand why he looks at them that way (even if you don't agree). But it'd be awesome to see some different interpretations.
I really don't think WIT meant to say that Jesus is weak and powerless. It is afterall, all relative. I think he just meant to show how those scriptures could indicate that God is much more powerful and knowledgeable than Christ, and that Christ recieves his power and knowledge from God. The point is fairly simple (again, even if you don't agree you can still understand it). How could Jesus be God if he recieves his power from God? Wouldn't God already have that power? How could God be tempted and even die? Didn't God raise Christ from the dead rather than Christ raising himself? I think I might be adding a bit, but it's along the same lines.
But seriously, I would love to hear ideas about how Christ could have shown slight weaknesses that most people think God can't show, and still be God under the surface. I say that not sarcastically, but genuinely. I truly do want to know. This is one aspect of the Trinitarian viewpoint that I haven't quite been able to grasp yet. This bothers me, because there must be some way to understand it if so many believe it. Even if I don't believe it, I should be able to understand why others do. Help me do just that.
Quote Where does it say the Holy Spirit doesn't know? –tIM 2
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”“nobody” including “the Son” knew the day or the hour, but only “the Father.”
If the holy spirit is a person, one of the Godhead, why didn't he know?
Many try to dodge the fact that the Son didn't know because he was human at the time. Yet, the question remains unanswerd: Why didn't the holy spirit know?Quote I will post when I am ready. I am not avoiding anything. –WJ
So, I take it no one has actually answered those questions yet.
And I assume no one will ever answer those question.
And I assume that although some are not “avoiding” those questions they will continue to post completely different ideas without ever actually trying to answer those questions.
I haven't actually read through all of this thread yet, but if I'm wrong, can someone please tell me.david
Quote Again I will answer you, however I get the feeling that no amount of scriptural truth saying Jesus is God and man will change your mind. –WJ
Apparently, WJ is going to “answer you” by explaining that “Jesus is God.”
Wow. I don't think he actually knows what the questions are.
Hi David,
Certainly the fully God claim is looking weaker by the day.
Everyone seems to concede that he was completely reliant on power from above.Quote In order for Jesus to be fully God, he must be fully God all of the time!
Right. The Bible clearly says that Jesus “BECAME flesh.” He didn't wear flesh or he was't part flesh, part God. He “became” flesh. I would take that to mean what it says.
And if it doesn't mean what it says, then would someone please answer WIT's questions.Hi,
I thank God He did not expect us to follow Himself but rather a man like us.
That makes it possible.Quote (david @ April 08 2007,13:18) And I assume no one will ever answer those questions.
I sure hope you're wrong!WJ writes:
Not3in1Do you feel good about calling Yeshua these thing?.
Put it this way. If you were there would you say these things to Yeshua?
Jesus you are ignorant.
Jesus you are powerless.
Jesus you lack wisdom.
Jesus you need perfecting.
Jesus you cant be God and die.
Maybe you could say these things to him. I dont know.
But this truly makes me sick to my stomach to hear this coming from a professing child of God.
**********************************WJ – spare me!
I didn't say these things. Read your Bible, man. They are written. Good grief!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 06 2007,10:36) I wrote the following in the Trinity thread as the conclusion to a discussion that started on page 644 of that thread: Quote Tim2 and Is 1:18, OK Gents, since you aren't going to play my little game fairly, (as you both continue to use an argument that I specifically countered on page 652, without addressing my counterargument), I suppose that I should be more straightforward with you. My “tri-natured” Christ doctrine was an attempt to demonstrate what I believe to be true of all Trinitarians: that you believe what you do because you have been told that it is important to believe it, and not because scripture demands it.
I am sure that you both will object to this claim but I will attempt to prove it by taking the most crucial element of your doctrine and showing that it not only is unsubstantiated in scripture but actually goes against scripture! Though it certainly is pertinent to this thread, I will start a new thread called “Fully God, Fully Man”. I look forward to reading your responses to my supposition there.
The belief that after his “incarnation”, Jesus became forever and always both fully God and fully man is clearly one of the most crucial elements of the Trinity doctrine – if not, in fact, the most crucial issue. It is the one escape clause that Trinitarians rely upon to explain what would otherwise be scriptural conundrums in regard to their doctrine. Specifically, whenever Jesus is shown to do, or say, something that demonstrates his humanity, Trinitarians claim that it only reinforces the “fully man” portion of their doctrine and does not negate the “fully God” portion of their doctrine. Accordingly, unless one can show them a scripture that says, “Jesus is not God”, their doctrine remains scripturally compliant, as far as they are concerned. “Scripture claims that he is God and that he is man, so clearly that supports our assertion that he is fully God and fully man, all the time“, they would claim, but there is actually a much bigger leap between what scripture says, and what they assert, than they ever acknowledge. Let's take a look at the official doctrine:
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead (excerpted from the Athanasian creed).
(I am aware that some Protestant Trinitarians object to the idea that their beliefs come from creeds, but if one objects to anything in the above quote, I would suggest that one is essentially not a true Trinitarian. That notwithstanding, if you call yourself a Trinitarian, but you have objections to any portion of this excerpt, I would ask that you make note of it in your response.)
So to summarize, according to the creed, Jesus is:
1) perfect God and perfect man
2) not two, but one [person]
3) one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God
4) one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.Here's the first problem:
Aside from the clarification in item 2, can any of these claims be substantianted by scripture? Is there a single verse that proclaims these supposed truths about Jesus?
Trinitarians claim that their doctrine is merely a compilation of truths readily found in scripture, yet these idea are completely foreign to it's pages.
Trinitarians, do you even dispute this?
Here's the second problem:
While Trinitarians are often pressed to call upon the “fully man” portion of their doctrine, as there are many scriptures that beg this question, Trinitarians are not often enough called upon to defend the “fully God” portion of their beliefs. Yet, according to their doctrine, Jesus never ceases to be fully God at any time, so anything that is true of Jesus, the person, is true of him both as God and man. For example, if it is true that Jesus saves, then he saves us both as God and man, not exclusively as one or the other. So, what exactly does it mean to be “fully God”?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?
How can one who is fully God exhibit these traits? If we say that he was limited by his human nature, whether voluntarily or otherwise, not only do we offend the precise language of the creed – “…not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God…” – but we make the absurd claim that someone who is fully God can be fully contained within the finite and frail existence of a human being. No, either Jesus is fully God all the time, or he is not. Scripture cries out against the idea, yet Trinitarians assert it anyway.
Trinitarians, how do you account for this blatantly unscriptural plank in your doctrine?
Response to WIT, Fully Man and Fully God Part 1WIT
First of all if you are going to disprove something, you should go after the proclaimed evidence that a thing is true.
Example being you trying to disprove the Trinitarians theology concerning the Deity of Christ by proving he is a man and not going after the proclaimed scriptures that he is God.
We all believe he is a man. And your scriptures does a good job proving that.
Question is, is he God and man? Or what and who is he?
Now I want to establish that I don’t hold to any creed, for I may or may not agree to certain points of the creeds. My theology is not based on a creed but by revelation of the scriptures.
Now you say…
Quote The belief that after his “incarnation”, Jesus became forever and always both fully God and fully man is clearly one of the most crucial elements of the Trinity doctrine – if not, in fact, the most crucial issue. Your first line already shows misrepresentation.
No Trinitarian believes that “after his incarnation, Jesus became Fully God”.
He took on the “Likeness of Sinful flesh” yes, but still remained the Word/God.
Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast t
hou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. (Remember Heb 1:8)He was before all things with the Father in the beginning.
In fact by *him all things consist*! Does this sound like a normal man?
Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.Jn 1:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same *was in the beginning with God*.
3 All things were made by him; and **without him was not any thing** made that was made
.
Does this sound like a normal man to you?Vrs 14 of Jn 1 says…
14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So here we see that Jesus was something other than just a man as you and I.
He is the “Monogenes” Unique Son of God.
You do agree with this don’t you?
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet be the creator? John 1:3, Heb 1:2, Col:1:16,17
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet own “ALL THINGS”? John 16:15, Col 1:16, Matt 11:27
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet be the exact replication of Gods substance. Heb 1:3 Phil 2:6
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet be “Omnipresent”? Matt 18:19,20,
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet be “Omnipotent”? Matt 28:19
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet be “Omniscient? Col 2:3
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet the Spirit of God be subservient to him? Jn 16:7, Jn 16:13,14
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet raise himself from the dead? Jn 2:19 Jn 1:10:18
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet claim to be the “Living Water, the Spirit”? Jn 7:37, 1 Cor 2:13, 2 Cor 3:17
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet answer the prayers of all men and take all their burdens upon himself. Matt. 11:28-30
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet claim he has seen God yet the scriptures say “No Man has seen God”. Jn 6:46, Jn 1:18
Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet claim that if you have seen him you have seen God? Jn 14:8, Jn 1:18Can one be fully man and have just the nature of man and yet have the body of God? Acts 20:28, Jn 6:48-54
I could go on. I hope you get the point. Jesus is something other than Fully God and Fully man for he is The Monogenes, Unique Son of God. He is both God and man as One.
Now maybe the carnal natural mind of men can not fathom nor reason how this can be. Nevertheless it is scriptural.
Paul the Apostle makes it very clear.
I Tim 3:16
And without controversy great is the “mystery” of godliness: God (he or the Word, it means the same thing) was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.Notice the word “Mystery”, Greek ‘musterion’ which means;
1) hidden thing, secret, mystery
a) generally mysteries, religious secrets, confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals
b) a hidden or secret thing, not obvious to the understanding
c) a hidden purpose or counsel
1) secret will
a) of men
b) of God: the secret counsels which govern God in dealing with the righteous, which are hidden from ungodly and wicked men but plain to the godlyThen Paul immedeitly follows by this…
1 Tim 4:
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;You do believe Pauls words don’t you?
That this is a hidden thing, a secret thing which only the Spirit can reveal, and that is hidden from the ungodly and natural men having not the Spirit.
A natural man without the Spirit can not understand the Incarnation.
You see we accept the word by faith, all of it whether we understand it or not.
If Paul says it is a mystery than I believe it is a Mystery.
But the mysteries are being revealed to the called out ones the true believers by the Spirit.
Col 1:27
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:There is no “Mystery” in another Son of God being born, or another anointed Prophet or King being made known, but there is the Mystery of the Word/God the Lord form heaven coming in the likeness of sinful flesh by emptying himself “not the so called Kenosis heresy” you have spoken of but the “Hypostatic Union”. http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm
He humbled himself to the Fathers will even to the death of the cross and raised himself from the grave and by himself sat down at the right hand of the Father. Heb 1:3.
Now he has come to live in us by his “One eternal Spirit”, which we have been made to drink of, the Spirit of God, Gods Spirit that dwells in us.
This is the Mystery “Christ/Gods Spirit living in us as One Spirit.
Rom 8:9-11, 1 Cor 12:13. 2 Cor 3:7You say…
Quote Trinitarians claim that their doctrine is merely a compilation of truths readily found in scripture, yet these idea are completely foreign to it's pages. Trinitarians, do you even dispute this?
Yes I dispute it as shown above.You say…
Quote Here's the second problem: While Trinitarians are often pressed to call upon the “fully man” portion of their doctrine, as there are many scriptures that beg this question, Trinitarians are not often enough called upon to defend the “fully God” portion of their beliefs. Yet, according to their doctrine, Jesus never ceases to be fully God at any time, so anything that is true of Jesus, the person, is true of him both as God and man. For example, if it is true that Jesus saves, then he saves us both as God and man, not exclusively as one or the other. So, what exactly does it mean to be “fully God”?
That’s right, he saves as both God and man,
So if he didnt save us as God then he must have saved us as a man like you and I. Could a normal man save us?
Do you base your faith in a mere man saving you or do you base your faith in God saving you?
Is 43:11
I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Also see Hsa 13:4, Is 45:21Gal 3:20
A mediator, however, doe
s not represent just one party; but God is one.What is Paul saying?
A Mediator represents two partys God and Man, but then Paul says “God is One”. So God is not only the party but he is also the mediator.
1 Tim 2:25
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;Jesus is the God man that is the mediator.
This is why scriptures declare if we have the Son then we have the Father/God.
Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.The Father has given him a name above his own name. Would the Father do this to anyone else other than the Word/God when he says there is no one else but him? The Father and the Word is One!
You say…
Quote So, what exactly does it mean to be “fully God”? Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)?
Jesus the Word/God took on human form and was by emaculate conception born a man and called the Son of God by the Father and also given a name which was “Emmanual”, God with us.
This same Jesus being “found in the fashion” of a man grew in wisdom and in stature and in favour with God and man.
I don’t know the time table of your scripture. But I can tell you this, by the time Jesus was in his 30s he said…
Jn 16:
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 *All things* that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that **he shall take of mine**, and shall shew it unto you.He had been given “all things”, and by the scriptures above that would include all “Truth”. So the day and hour of his return is included in this, wouldn’t you think?
Dosn’t seem like anyone ignorant to me.
In fact I don’t think he was ignorant when he was a boy disputing with the leaders of the day.
But his wisdom and knowledge that was in him at birth “grew” as he got older until he knew all that the Father had given him from before the foundation of the world, when it was all made by him and for him.
Do you believe it is impossible for the Creator God to do this, to become our “only Saviour”, when it was impossible for any man to do this?
Do you think anyone understands how a virgin can be with child by the Hoy Spirit? Could anyone know the genetics of Christ Body?
For he must fulfill all righteiousness. Yes the Word/God could become a flesh man and still keep his Spiritual identity. The Lord from heaven, the second Adam.
To be continued…
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