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Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2007,19:07) Hi Tim2,
To what in the life of Christ do you attribute the anointing of God's Holy Spirit? Anything at all?
Hi Tim2,
So Christ either acted byhis human powers or his own”divine powers”
AND despite the fact that God anointed him with His Spirit and was with him and was in him reconciling the world to Himself[col2, 2Cor5, Acts 10]
NONE
of what he did was the work of that God in your opinion.His words seem to say rather he was utterly dependant on that greater being so whom should we believe?
Well, maybe the the two wills don't exactly jump out at us, but they are a necessary consequence of believing in the two natures of Jesus, which I think is inescapable, as He clearly is a man, and as I hope everyone here admits, He is Something more than man. However, I think Unisage's posts show the two wills of Jesus, in that we see it is His will to do everything that the Father does (John 5:19), and thus, I believe, we can say that His will is the Father's will; but at the same time in John 6:38 we see Him contrasting His will with the Father's will, which, I think, must be His human nature. I'm not an expert on this doctrine, as you can tell, but I do think it is a necessary consequence of His dual nature, which I fail to see how you can deny.
Not3in1, it has been the testimony of the church for 2000 years that God died on the cross. Paul says they crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Corinthians 2:8. I refuse to believe that there is another Lord of glory besides YHWH. For an excellent discussion of this, see http://thriceholy.net/cross.html The cross is the central event in Christianity, and how else could it be deserving of all our attention, but that God Himself died.
Nick, I believe that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John in the Jordan, and that the Holy Spirit worked many miracles through Him and empowered Him to accomplish His ministry. I also believe that Jesus Himself did the work (John 10:37), and that the Father did the works too, John 14:10. One of them doing the works by no means excludes the other from performing them too, for whatever the Father does, the Son also does. John 5:19.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Can you sort out which was done by which?
You say God empowered his ministry but you tell us he was God and the works were his.
It is so confusing.Tim2,
When Jesus died, you say that God died too – how can that be? God cannot die.
You say that everything Jesus experiences, God experiences too – how can this be? God cannot be tempted.
Now this is a bit cras, my apologies; but I assume Jesus had a penis – how can this be? God is not a man.
Jesus changed his mind about quite a few things – how can this be? God does not change his mind.
Jesus grew in understanding – how can this be said of God? God is omniscient.I know these are the basic questions asked of this doctrine – but I've never really understood the answers. How can two uncompatible spirits exist together in the same body? Thanks.
Hi Tim2,
Putting aside his origins before he came do you believe that while he was here Christ was just as we are? Is that not what Phil 2 and Heb 2,4 says?
If he still had and used the powers you say he always had in what way was he like us who do not naturally have such powers?
If the works were done through him by God's anointing who was he, just a mannikin for God or did he have will and choice of his own?Hi Tim2,
You rely on tradition to say
“Not3in1, it has been the testimony of the church for 2000 years that God died on the cross. Paul says they crucified the Lord of glory. 1 Corinthians 2:8. I refuse to believe that there is another Lord of glory besides YHWH. For an excellent discussion of this, see http://thriceholy.net/cross.html The cross is the central event in Christianity, and how else could it be deserving of all our attention, but that God Himself died.”Any suggestion that IAM WHO AM actually became I WAS is utter folly.
If Christ is not your Lord and the Lord of Glory then whom do you serve?
Hi Tim2,
You say
“Nick, I believe that Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit when He was baptized by John in the Jordan, and that the Holy Spirit worked many miracles through Him and empowered Him to accomplish His ministry. I also believe that Jesus Himself did the work (John 10:37), and that the Father did the works too, John 14:10. One of them doing the works by no means excludes the other from performing them too, for whatever the Father does, the Son also does. John 5:19.”Did God do all these works through Jesus?
Then why do you teach Jesus is God?Hi Tim2,
So if Christ was reliant on the powers of God given to him at the Jordan surely then he was not God incarnate before then?Tim,
you continue to come up against the same impossibility instead of seeing the truth.
No matter what metaphysical mystical way in which one tries to explain the dual nature you come up with a meaningless concept. Jesus cannot be temptable and non temptable at the same time. Jesus cannot be failable and non faliable at the same time. This is not a paradoxial problem because a paradox is something that seems impossible but is proven to be true. Two opposites cannot exist and be equal. Black cannot equal white. Non temptable cannot be equal to temptable.
The kind of crreature you describe would have multiple personality disorder.Rbrm forgetting all of that it does not fit in God's plan to have jJesus as the perfect example for us. To every degree that you take Jesus away from full and complete humanity – to that same degree do you deny our ability to be like Him.
I will never grow a dual nature so I can never be like Christ.This effectively scraps God's plan for amn and the entire purpose for creation.
Tim2 wrote:
Quote I'm not an expert on this doctrine, as you can tell, but I do think it is a necessary consequence of His dual nature, which I fail to see how you can deny. Certainly, it's a necessary consequence of the dual nature doctrine, but the whole point of this thread – (see the first post) – is to dispute the idea that the dual nature doctrine is either scriptural or necessary.
I personally believe that a better explanation for the Messiah's supernatural characteristics is that he was, and is, empowered by God, not that he is God. There is much precedence in scripture for this paradigm. On the contrary, there is no precedence for, or any explicit reference to, a dual natured being in scripture.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ May 18 2007,09:52) Tim2 wrote: Quote I'm not an expert on this doctrine, as you can tell, but I do think it is a necessary consequence of His dual nature, which I fail to see how you can deny. Certainly, it's a necessary consequence of the dual nature doctrine, but the whole point of this thread – (see the first post) – is to dispute the idea that the dual nature doctrine is either scriptural or necessary.
I personally believe that a better explanation for the Messiah's supernatural characteristics is that he was, and is, empowered by God, not that he is God. There is much precedence in scripture for this paradigm. On the contrary, there is no precedence for, or any explicit reference to, a dual natured being in scripture.
Absolutely correct. Without God's power given to Jesus (or us) we could do nothing.Secondly — It would seem inparative that all Christians understand the nature of Jesus that we might become like Him.
It is strange why people got to use words like Dual Nature.
But this is what Scriptures tells me about him…So much for the Dual Nature..
John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.”
John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
John 8:28-29 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. And He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.
John 14:31 but so that the world may know that I love the Father, I do exactly as the Father commanded Me.”
Very God of Very God; Eternal Son; 100% God and 100% Man; Dual nature; Double nature; God-man; Fully God and fully man.
All unscriptual language. Doesn't this bother those who believe the teaching? Why doesn't it bother you?
Is God described anywhere using unbiblical terms? Then why is OK to describe his Son using unbiblical terms? These are sincere questions.
Martian and WhatisTrue,
I know that the dual nature of Jesus is easy to state, as in the Definition of Chalcedon, but difficult, perhaps impossible, to understand, but it is forced upon us by Scripture. If you admit that Scripture declares Jesus to have an attribute that men don't have, then you must believe that He has some sort of dual nature. And the clearest one is pre-existence. Before Abraham, Jesus is. He is before all things. Colossians 1:17. Men are not before all things. Men aren't empowered by God to be before all things. Moreover, all things were created through Him. God doesn't empower us to have things created through us. Nor does God empower us to be His radiance and the exact representation of His person. And there are many other inhuman properties of Jesus; but He is also affirmed to be a man, just like us. We can wonder and marvel that the Scriptures say this, but we can't deny it.
And again, the temptability comes back to the two wills, which the church affirms Him to have, and I believe this is found in the Bible; for it was His will not to go to the cross (Luke 22:42), and it was His will to go to the cross (John 12:27).
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ May 18 2007,05:53) Tim2, When Jesus died, you say that God died too – how can that be? God cannot die.
You say that everything Jesus experiences, God experiences too – how can this be? God cannot be tempted.
Now this is a bit cras, my apologies; but I assume Jesus had a penis – how can this be? God is not a man.
Jesus changed his mind about quite a few things – how can this be? God does not change his mind.
Jesus grew in understanding – how can this be said of God? God is omniscient.I know these are the basic questions asked of this doctrine – but I've never really understood the answers. How can two uncompatible spirits exist together in the same body? Thanks.
Hi Not3in1,I agree that God cannot die. But men can die. By reason of His unity of person, when Jesus died, God died. It is also possible for men to be held by death, but it was not possible for death to hold Jesus. Acts 2:24. This is because Jesus is the Author of Life. Acts 3:15.
Regarding temptation, I've explained that the 6th Ecumenical Council said that Jesus had two wills, and I follow them.
God did become a man. This is what John 1:14 says.
I don't know what Jesus changed His mind about, but God is shown as seemingly changing His mind in Exodus 32:14.
Jesus grew in understanding because He is a man, and men grow physically and mentally.
This is, as you say, very difficult, if not impossible to understand. But it is the testimony of the Bible, and we have to believe it and confess it.
Tim
Jesus had two wills,
************************I don't have two wills. Jesus was made like me in every way.
If I was ever going to entertain Trinitarianism again, this small sentence quoted above has kept me from it. It's ridiculous. It's like saying Jesus was a double-minded man. Who could trust such a man?
Tim,
When you have two different views on what scripture means it is always necessary to come to a mutual understanding and agreement on how both will interpret scripture. It is nearly impossible to get two people to do that. Even if they can agree it is common that one or the other will drop the principles as soon as they begin to prove their doctrine wrong.I have spent many months on various boards debating/discussing these doctrines. With that in mind I have taken the approach of understanding the Hebrew mindset and the mindset of God within His creation. God always deals with His creation in a functional manner. His truths and teachings function toward fulfilling His plan.
The primary goal (other then a blood sacrifice) of the Messiah was to be an example for the rest of mankind on how to walk with God. The dual nature doctrine poses serious problems within God’s plan.
1.If Jesus is in any part God, then we can never be like him. This invalidates God’s plan for man.
2.If Jesus is in any part God then he is no longer human. This contradicts 100s of scriptures. If you change the nature of a creature, then you change that creature into something other then what is was. If Jesus has two wills or two natures then He is non human. You can say he is human all day long but with a dual nature he is not.
3.If Jesus has two natures then everything that Jesus did must be examined to see by virtue of which nature did he do the particular action. This must be done without any clear indication in scripture to indicate which one did it.
4.The most serious problem is this – Without Jesus as a full and complete human being, with one single human nature, we have no example to follow. That means that even his resurrection is not guaranteed for us since he was raised as a dual natured creature and I hope to be resurrected with my single human nature.As I have stated before. You cannot get away from the dysfunctional nature of your doctrine. It does not matter what you believe scripture to prove, if the doctrine does not work within God’s nature and plan then you have made a mistake. True doctrines are not justified by scripture, but are justified by their functionality in the plan of God. This is the finale and most important test of teaching. True teaching/doctrine is not subject to our biblical interpretation of scripture. True doctrine is subject to the plan of God. For this reason I will not debate the merits of your scriptural proofs but rather the functionality of your conclusions. God does not teach doctrines that work against His plan for man.
How does Jesus being part God/dual natured help me become like Him? In truth it does not, it actually hinders me becoming like Him because I will never be part God or dual natured.
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