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How many gods are there? If Jesus is God
**************Tim2, I'll cut you off right there in mid-sentence…………….”If Jesus is God……” Well, that is a mighty big “IF” there. And I say Jesus is not God. Not the Almighty God.
TimV, I think I am starting to see where you are coming from. At first I was a bit worried that you believed in many gods, and that always freaks everyone out! Ha! But, now I understand you are using it in the sense that even our Lord used it when he said indeed their are many gods and lords. OK. Thanks.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 19 2007,07:07)
Nick, if the Trinity is just a proposition, then show me which of the following are not true from Scripture:1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.Tim
I have asked the exact same thing here, my question wasn't answered then either…..
******************************I think this is one of those trick questions that really doesn't do any justice to the topic at hand. Just my opinion, of course.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2007,04:03) TimV, I think I am starting to see where you are coming from. At first I was a bit worried that you believed in many gods, and that always freaks everyone out! Ha! But, now I understand you are using it in the sense that even our Lord used it when he said indeed their are many gods and lords. OK. Thanks.
Hi Not3in1,That is how I meant it,
But I am sure it will still freak someone out.Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 20 2007,04:04) Quote (Tim2 @ April 19 2007,07:07)
Nick, if the Trinity is just a proposition, then show me which of the following are not true from Scripture:1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Holy Spirit is God.Tim
I have asked the exact same thing here, my question wasn't answered then either…..
******************************I think this is one of those trick questions that really doesn't do any justice to the topic at hand. Just my opinion, of course.
Hi Tim2,
Who is God?
If your answer is that you have found several then what does that say?Tim2, like I said, this question wouldn't do any justice to the topic of the Trinity – period. It wouldn't matter which board it was listed on.
Well this is just absurd. The entire doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three gods but one God. I posted a question asking anyone to disprove any of these points from Scripture, and what response do I get:
Not3in1: “this question wouldn't do any justice to the topic of the Trinity.”
Are you kidding me?
OK, Tim2, I'll see you over on one of the Trinity threads for this game of equivocation. I'll post later tonight.
Hi Tim2,
You say
“The entire doctrine of the Trinity is that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet they are not three gods but one God.”It is indeed absurd that you would teach as dogma what is not written
Quote Where does it say the Holy Spirit doesn't know? –Tim2, page 2.
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”“Nobody knows” it says “but the Father.”
It also adds that “neither the angels in heaven nor the Son” but only the Father.
So we have Jesus, the Son, and the Father and the holy spirit.
It seemed for some reason, only the Father knew the day and the hour.How is this possible if Jesus was fully God? I mean, what does that even mean, to be fully God and yet be left in the dark on matters, to have to ask for power, to have to pray to “his God,” etc. In what sense is he “fully God”?
(Hebrews 5:8) “Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;”
Does “God Almighty” have to learn obedience? Whom does he have to obey?The scripture says Jesus “became flesh.”
Hi David,
Well I think you have a hard time arguing that the Holy Spirit doesn't know in light of 1 Corinthians 2:10-11. “The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.” So there's no limit to what He knows. Again, “The thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.” So when it is declared that only God knows, it's implicit that the Holy Spirit knows.
I would also be careful, David, about declaring that the Son does not know certain things. The disciples heard Jesus in Mark 13:32. Yet on the night before He died, they confessed, “You know all things.” John 16:30. And Jesus commended them for saying this. Again, Peter confessed after the resurrection, “Lord, you know all things.” John 21:17. Your confession of Jesus should be the same as the apostles. You shouldn't say, “Ahah, Jesus doesn't know all things. Remember that time back in Mark 13 …”
As for obedience, you know Trinitarians believe that Jesus is man as well as God. He did not assert His equality with the Father but humbled Himself and took the form of a slave. He became flesh, as you said, and being found as a man, He had to obey God. Philippians 2:6. He learned obedience just as all men are supposed to learn obedience but don't. And His perfect obedience made His sacrifice on the cross perfect and the source of salvation for His people.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Consistently you believe what others say about Jesus more than what Jesus says himself.
Why is this?
He is truth.Quote I would also be careful, David, about declaring that the Son does not know certain things. I'm declaring nothing. The Bible very simply extremely clearly said that at that time, the Son, nor the angels didn't know the hour, only the Father knw.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 24 2007,20:11) Hi David, Well I think you have a hard time arguing that the Holy Spirit doesn't know in light of 1 Corinthians 2:10-11. “The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.” So there's no limit to what He knows. Again, “The thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.” So when it is declared that only God knows, it's implicit that the Holy Spirit knows.
Tim
Hi Tim2:I know that your response is to David, but as you say, the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit and not as you teach a “Third Person” in a “Trinity”. As you say, “The thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God”. God reveals his thoughts to mankind by His Spirit.
I agree with David's post. Jesus said he did not know when He was to return, and also, Jesus learned obedience through the things that he suffered and thereby became like God as he learned to apply God,s Word in his daily life and obeyed without sin even unto death on the cross.
I desire God's very best for you and your family.
“The thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.” So when it is declared that only God knows, it's implicit that the Holy Spirit knows.
****************
Because the holy Spirit is WHO God is – not another person. Just as we have a spirit, so does God. We do not possess another “person.”1 Cor.2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? IN THE SAME WAY, no one knows the thoughts of God except the spirit of God.Not3,
Are you saying that the Spirit is the Father? Then explain John 14:16, 26, and 15:26? If the Spirit is not the Father, but is God, then please explain what that means.
Tim
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”(Acts 1:6-7)
“When, now, they had assembled, they went asking him: “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” 7 He said to them: “It does not belong to YOU to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in his own jurisdiction;”Although Jesus is Jehovah’s only-begotten Son, he himself has not always known his Father’s timetable for events. In his prophecy regarding the last days, Jesus humbly acknowledged: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36) Jesus was willing to wait patiently for his Father to reveal to him the exact time for destructive action to be taken against this wicked system of things.
Quote So when it is declared that only God knows, it's implicit that the Holy Spirit knows.
If it is declared that God knows, is it also implicit that the Son, who is claimed to be “fully God” knows?I know, I know. His human nature limited him from knowing.
Quote I know, I know. His human nature limited him from knowing. Hehe, at least we basically understand each other David.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Acts 9
” 36Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did.37And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber.
38And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them.
39Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
40But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
41And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive.
42And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.”
You seem to say that Jesus is shown to be God by his actions. Here Peter raises Tabitha from the dead but Peter is not God.
Could it be that both Jesus and Peter didi these things in the anointed power of the Spirit of God?
Could it be that Jesus really is like us in this way- a vessel like Peter and Paul – who can even raise the dead, but not by being God, but by the given powers of God?
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