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I wrote the following in the Trinity thread as the conclusion to a discussion that started on page 644 of that thread:
Quote Tim2 and Is 1:18, OK Gents, since you aren't going to play my little game fairly, (as you both continue to use an argument that I specifically countered on page 652, without addressing my counterargument), I suppose that I should be more straightforward with you. My “tri-natured” Christ doctrine was an attempt to demonstrate what I believe to be true of all Trinitarians: that you believe what you do because you have been told that it is important to believe it, and not because scripture demands it.
I am sure that you both will object to this claim but I will attempt to prove it by taking the most crucial element of your doctrine and showing that it not only is unsubstantiated in scripture but actually goes against scripture! Though it certainly is pertinent to this thread, I will start a new thread called “Fully God, Fully Man”. I look forward to reading your responses to my supposition there.
The belief that after his “incarnation”, Jesus became forever and always both fully God and fully man is clearly one of the most crucial elements of the Trinity doctrine – if not, in fact, the most crucial issue. It is the one escape clause that Trinitarians rely upon to explain what would otherwise be scriptural conundrums in regard to their doctrine. Specifically, whenever Jesus is shown to do, or say, something that demonstrates his humanity, Trinitarians claim that it only reinforces the “fully man” portion of their doctrine and does not negate the “fully God” portion of their doctrine. Accordingly, unless one can show them a scripture that says, “Jesus is not God”, their doctrine remains scripturally compliant, as far as they are concerned. “Scripture claims that he is God and that he is man, so clearly that supports our assertion that he is fully God and fully man, all the time“, they would claim, but there is actually a much bigger leap between what scripture says, and what they assert, than they ever acknowledge. Let's take a look at the official doctrine:
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father, as touching His godhead; and inferior to the Father, as touching His manhood; who, although He is God and man, yet he is not two, but one Christ; one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God; one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the rational soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead (excerpted from the Athanasian creed).
(I am aware that some Protestant Trinitarians object to the idea that their beliefs come from creeds, but if one objects to anything in the above quote, I would suggest that one is essentially not a true Trinitarian. That notwithstanding, if you call yourself a Trinitarian, but you have objections to any portion of this excerpt, I would ask that you make note of it in your response.)
So to summarize, according to the creed, Jesus is:
1) perfect God and perfect man
2) not two, but one [person]
3) one, not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God
4) one altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.Here's the first problem:
Aside from the clarification in item 2, can any of these claims be substantianted by scripture? Is there a single verse that proclaims these supposed truths about Jesus?
Trinitarians claim that their doctrine is merely a compilation of truths readily found in scripture, yet these idea are completely foreign to it's pages.
Trinitarians, do you even dispute this?
Here's the second problem:
While Trinitarians are often pressed to call upon the “fully man” portion of their doctrine, as there are many scriptures that beg this question, Trinitarians are not often enough called upon to defend the “fully God” portion of their beliefs. Yet, according to their doctrine, Jesus never ceases to be fully God at any time, so anything that is true of Jesus, the person, is true of him both as God and man. For example, if it is true that Jesus saves, then he saves us both as God and man, not exclusively as one or the other. So, what exactly does it mean to be “fully God”?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?
How can one who is fully God exhibit these traits? If we say that he was limited by his human nature, whether voluntarily or otherwise, not only do we offend the precise language of the creed – “…not by conversion of the godhead into flesh but by taking of the manhood into God…” – but we make the absurd claim that someone who is fully God can be fully contained within the finite and frail existence of a human being. No, either Jesus is fully God all the time, or he is not. Scripture cries out against the idea, yet Trinitarians assert it anyway.
Trinitarians, how do you account for this blatantly unscriptural plank in your doctrine?
wit
You say…
Quote Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)? Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?
So let me see if I understand.
You believe that…
Jesus is ignorant.
Jesus is powerless.
Jesus lacks wisdom.
Jesus needs perfecting.
Jesus cant be God and die.
Wow! I see you give great honour to the Lord from heaven.
Not to mention faith in an infinitly powerful God who claims there is nothing to hard for him, or there is nothing impossible for him, including taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being born a man and raising himself from the dead, just to mention a few, that this God/Man could do.
Give me a little time and I will answer your scriptureless post.
You cannot deny that at some point in Jesus' life – he was all of these things that WIT is saying of him.
Even if Jesus was only ONCE some or one of these things…….could he really be “fully” God? I don't think so.
I think this is maybe a very simple message. One that makes complete sense. At least to this simple mind.
Keep it simple. Keep on track. Thanks, WIT. I'll have to read all the rest of your responses here. Good thread
WJ wrote:
Quote Wow! I see you give great honour to the Lord from heaven. Not to mention faith in an infinitly powerful God who claims there is nothing to hard for him, or there is nothing impossible for him, including taking on the likeness of sinful flesh and being born a man and raising himself from the dead, just to mention a few, that this God/Man could do.
I assume that you also believe that your god is powerful enough to cease to be God for a time if he so desires. Yes?
As Not3in1 pointed out, this is all very simple. Jesus can not be any of the things mentioned above, at any time, and still be fully God.
Good luck trying to argue against the clear scriptures that say he exhibited all those traits at some point during his earthly ministry!
WIT,
1. Perfect God and perfect man: (a) God: John 1:1, John 1:18, John 5:18, John 20:28, Colossians 2:9 (to name a few); (b) man: Acts 2:22, 1 Timothy 2:5.
2. Not two, but one person: Matthew 1:1 – Revelation 22:21 (only one person is called Jesus)
3. Not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God: John 1:14, Romans 1:3, Galatians 4:4, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 7
4. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person: because Jesus is God (John 20:28), man (1 Timothy 2:5), and is only ever referred to as one person. If the natures were confused together, Jesus would no longer be a man.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Join US [1Cor 8]For US there is
ONE GOD[The Father}
AND
ONE LORD JESUS [The Son]IT is you who promotes the worship of other deities.
Hi Nick,
No, Nick, you believe that Jesus is not Yahweh, but if you follow the Bible, you call him your God (John 20:28), you give Him glory to the day of eternity (2 Peter 3:18), and also ascribe to Him blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever (Revelation 5:13). So you're giving all of this to one who is not YHWH?
Tim
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 06 2007,01:46) You cannot deny that at some point in Jesus' life – he was all of these things that WIT is saying of him. Even if Jesus was only ONCE some or one of these things…….could he really be “fully” God? I don't think so.
I think this is maybe a very simple message. One that makes complete sense. At least to this simple mind.
Keep it simple. Keep on track. Thanks, WIT. I'll have to read all the rest of your responses here. Good thread
Not3in1Do you feel good about calling Yeshua these thing?.
Put it this way. If you were there would you say these things to Yeshua?
Jesus you are ignorant.
Jesus you are powerless.
Jesus you lack wisdom.
Jesus you need perfecting.
Jesus you cant be God and die.
Maybe you could say these things to him. I dont know.
But this truly makes me sick to my stomach to hear this coming from a professing child of God.
Quote (Tim2 @ April 06 2007,07:17) Hi Nick, No, Nick, you believe that Jesus is not Yahweh, but if you follow the Bible, you call him your God (John 20:28), you give Him glory to the day of eternity (2 Peter 3:18), and also ascribe to Him blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever (Revelation 5:13). So you're giving all of this to one who is not YHWH?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Are we meant to read between the lines
and decide Jesus is his own Father?I guess you're going to get only silence and sidetracking and no actual answers to your unanswerable questions WIT. I assume that's because they have no answers from a trinitarian perspective.
Looking at just one of those things:
MARK 13:32
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead. And if, as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?
One definition of “ignorant” is unaware, uninformed, for those who don't know or are ignorant of the meaning of that word. (I personally wouldn't have used that word because it also has much more negative connotations. But, does the word fit?)
““Concerning that day or the hour nobody knows, neither the angels in heaven nor the Son, but the Father.”
Was Jesus unaware of the day or the hour? No.So, the question the WJ and everyone has been avoiding:
How is this possible if he was fully God?How is this possible?
Anyone?
No.
I didn't think so.
And please, no more fallacious sidetracking.
Just continue to not answer the question, so it is obvious to the people on the fence that you don't have the answers and will never have them. Perhaps in a few hundred years, you can work them out, as your forfathers did with the trinity itself. But it won't be in God's word that you find the answers, but rather, in your philosophies.
Answers? Anyone?
No.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2007,08:11) Quote (Tim2 @ April 06 2007,07:17) Hi Nick, No, Nick, you believe that Jesus is not Yahweh, but if you follow the Bible, you call him your God (John 20:28), you give Him glory to the day of eternity (2 Peter 3:18), and also ascribe to Him blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever (Revelation 5:13). So you're giving all of this to one who is not YHWH?
Tim
Hi Tim2,
Are we meant to read between the lines
and decide Jesus is his own Father?
Nick,I enjoy discussing this so that the truth of God will be spread, but if all you are going to do is accuse me over and over again of believing that Jesus is the Father, well, I don't know, but please be more respectful and stop telling me that's what I believe because I don't.
Dave,
Jesus emptied Himself when He became man. Was He still God? Yes. But He laid aside His priviliges and subordinated Himself to the Father. Thus, by His confession, He did not know the hour of His second coming. This was a voluntary giving up of knowledge. We know that it was a giving up of knowledge because we are twice told that Jesus knows all things (John 16:30, 21:17). Do you believe someone other than YHWH knows all things?
Tim
Quote hus, by His confession, He did not know the hour of His second coming. This was a voluntary giving up of knowledge. And the holy spirit? Why didn't he know?
Quote But He laid aside His priviliges and subordinated Himself to the Father. So this subjection or subordination was only while he was human, on earth?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:28
“But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”Hi WIT,
This thread looks interesting, I'm off on holiday for a week with my family, so I'll have a careful read of your opening post when I get back and give you my thoughts….Blessings
Hi Tim 2,
If God is a being of three persons in one
then “the son” is just a title
and Jesus is his own father
as a son of the God of which he is integral.WorshippingJesus wrote:
Quote Not3in1 Do you feel good about calling Yeshua these thing?.
Put it this way. If you were there would you say these things to Yeshua?
Jesus you are ignorant.
Jesus you are powerless.
Jesus you lack wisdom.
Jesus you need perfecting.
Jesus you cant be God and die.
Maybe you could say these things to him. I dont know.
But this truly makes me sick to my stomach to hear this coming from a professing child of God.
WorshippingJesus, are you a trained magician, because this is an excellent sleight of hand post?
First you misrepresent what I originally wrote, and then you profess great disgust over the false words that you put in mine, and Not3in1's, mouth – all the while ignoring the actual points that I was making! Well, just for your edification, allow me to rephrase my own words into the same format that you used so that you can critique them accurately. I would not hesistate in saying the following words to Yeshua:
Yeshua, you were ignorant of the time you would return to earth, as you clearly stated yourself, and I believe you, (Mark 12:32).
Yeshua, you were lacking in power, but your Father, and my Father, (John 20:17), has given you all power subject to Him (1 Corinthians 15:27-28).
Yeshua, you were lacking in wisdom, but you increased in wisdom so wonderfully that you both marvelled men and pleased God, (Luke 2:52).
Yeshua, though you were not sinful, you were not perfect when you were born into this world, but you were made perfect through your suffering, (Hebrews 5:9).
Yeshua, you, your whole person, were dead, but you were raised to life for the benefit of many, as you yourself said, (Revelations 2:8). And, I believe you.
Now, WorshippingJesus, is there anything in my words that you find objectionabale?
Tim2,
I commend you on your attempt to respond to my initial post. However, your efforts fall short on the first question, and you essentially ignored the vast majority of my second question. Let's take a look at your responses:
You wrote:
Quote WIT, 1. Perfect God and perfect man: (a) God: John 1:1, John 1:18, John 5:18, John 20:28, Colossians 2:9 (to name a few); (b) man: Acts 2:22, 1 Timothy 2:5.
2. Not two, but one person: Matthew 1:1 – Revelation 22:21 (only one person is called Jesus)
3. Not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God: John 1:14, Romans 1:3, Galatians 4:4, Colossians 2:9, 1 Timothy 3:16, Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 1:1, 1 John 4:2, 2 John 7
4. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person: because Jesus is God (John 20:28), man (1 Timothy 2:5), and is only ever referred to as one person. If the natures were confused together, Jesus would no longer be a man.
The key word in #1 is “perfect”, and none of the verses that you listed indicate that Jesus was either a perfect man or a perfect god. But, assuming that you feel it's sufficient just to demonstrate that he was called “god” or “man” to establish this point, I won't quibble with you on it.
On #2, we agree, so I need not elaborate.
As for #3, if you had bothered to show what the verses that you listed actually say, you would notice that, at best, they establish the exact opposite of what the referenced phrase in the creed demands. Here's that phrase again, with emphasis added:
“… Not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God … .”
And now, your verses:
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
This is the opposite of what the creed stipulates.
Romans 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh.
This verse does not even address whether the “godhead was converted into flesh” or whether human nature was absorbed into God.
Galations 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law.
Again, this verse does not address whether the “godhead was converted into flesh” or whether human nature was absorbed into God.
Colossians 2:9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
This seems to indicate that the godhead was contained in the flesh, not the other way around, as the creed stipulates.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.Again, this is the opposite of what the creed stipulates.
Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.
Again, this is the opposite of what the creed stipulates.
1 John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life.
Again, this verse does not address whether the “godhead was converted into flesh” or whether human nature was absorbed into God.
1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God.
2 John 7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.These verses indicate that Jesus was in the flesh. They do not say that he absorbed fleshly nature into his “Godhood”. This is the opposite of what the creed stipulates!
On point #4, you didn't even come up with a scripture that speaks to the phrase, “not by confusion of substance”. You only came up with a rationalization. That's hardly scriptural proof.
Why not just make it easier on yourself and concede that the words of the creed are Trinitarian rationalizations, not plain scriptural truths?
You wrote:
Quote Jesus emptied Himself when He became man. Was He still God? Yes. But He laid aside His priviliges and subordinated Himself to the Father. Thus, by His confession, He did not know the hour of His second coming. This was a voluntary giving up of knowledge. We know that it was a giving up of knowledge because we are twice told that Jesus knows all things (John 16:30, 21:17). Do you believe someone other than YHWH knows all things? This is an inadequate response to the questions I raised. You say that Jesus emptied himself. But what did he empty himself of? His divine nature? You say he laid aside his privileges. But, how does that account for him lacking in wisdom as a child, for example? Here are the five questions again. Why don't you try answering each one directly?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be ignorant, (Mark 13:32)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet be powerless, (John 5:30)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet lack wisdom, (Luke 2:52)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet need perfecting, (Hebrews 5:9)?
Can one be fully God, or fully have the nature of God, and yet die, (Revelations 2:8)?
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