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GB,
And you will be able to check your teachings against those of scripture so it is unwise to go beyond it.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,10:44) Hi mK,
God is God.
Rom9
Nick,Yes,
so has God (Yahweh) blinded those who do not believe – the point is they are blind and while blind will not see whatever is put in front of their faces.
Hi MK,
God's ways are inscrutable.
He is the potter but hopefully our vessels will be found clean and useful.Hi Gene:
You ask:
Quote How free is our choice in relation to this passage 2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You do know to whom this scripture refers when it references “the god of this world” do you not?
Quote 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.They chose not to believe the gospel because of the pleasures of this world.
Quote 2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.Quote (942767 @ Dec. 08 2008,12:08) Hi Gene: You ask:
Quote How free is our choice in relation to this passage 2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
You do know to whom this scripture refers when it references “the god of this world” do you not?
Quote 1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.They chose not to believe the gospel because of the pleasures of this world.
Quote 2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
Actually it was me that asked the question ….So you have it that the unsaved chose to be unsaved first and then their eyes were blinded so that they will be lost, however Jesus says that he came to save the lost and to set the captives free and to restore sight the those that were blind.
First is the natural, we are born into circumstances that have a lot of contradictory information to sort out, religions that are hypocritical and with theologies that do not make sense, christianity has a long history of abuses of power and you blame the ones who have been blinded by the god of this world (you mean Satan don't you) and say its all their fault because they chose not to believe first so they are blinded and then the traditional fate for the unbelieving and blind is that they will be tormented eternally (and its all their choice)
free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
How is it their choice if they are born into a physical life and circumstances and are just living the life they are given, doing the best they can.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 08 2008,11:46) Hi MK,
God's ways are inscrutable.
He is the potter but hopefully our vessels will be found clean and useful.
NickMaybe not so inscrutible
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.
Of the same lump He makes a vessel of dishonour and of honour
Does that sound like what is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit – flesh, sin, death ………….spirit, life
Hi meerkat:
You say:
Quote So you have it that the unsaved chose to be unsaved first and then their eyes were blinded so that they will be lost, however Jesus says that he came to save the lost and to set the captives free and to restore sight the those that were blind. That is not what the Apostle Paul said, and I merely quoted the scripture which states:
Quote 2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Cr 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.Of course, it is not a baby's fault if he or she was born into this world into whatever circumstances. Children are the responsibility of their parents. The question is whether or not the parents heard the gospel and chose not to believe and, therefore, brought up the child in whatever they believed.
He said that the God of this world, yes, Satan working through men, has blinded those those who have not believed the gospel. It is not because they did not hear the gospel, but because they chose to believe something else. Maybe, they believed that the truth was the Muslim religion or maybe Hinduism or something else. Or maybe, they believed in evolution or whatever. They were deceived through the deceiver.
In the known world to the Apostle Paul he said this:
Quote Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
And so, the gospel went, according to him, to the ends of the earth, but some did not believe.
In today's world, there may be some that have not heard the gospel. I don't know. It is our responsibility as Christians to share the gospel with whomever will hear. God will judge men according to their works, and I do not say that they will be tormented eternally. They will be destroyed if they are not saved, but their punishment will be according to their works.
We are living in the last days, and this is what God says:
Quote 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.However, I see that the deceiver will be judged more severly than the deceived.
But I say, if a person has heard the gospel, and has chosen not to believe for whatever reason, it is a choice that they have made even if there was some influence in their lives that caused them not to believe. As you say, there are many who may have taken their eye off of Jesus and looked upon those who professed to be Christians and were not practicing what they professed to be, and therefore, they did not believe. Jesus is our example.
You ask:
Quote How is it their choice if they are born into a physical life and circumstances and are just living the life they are given, doing the best they can. It is our responsibility as Christians to preach the gospel to them if they want to hear so that they will have a choice. Whether or not all will hear so that they had a choice from the time that Jesus came unto the end, I can not answer that question. I do not know. But apparently, all in this last day, will hear and either believe or be deceived by the Anti-Christ because they did not believe. I have quoted the scripture.
God Bless
94,
When you replied to my post of unbelievers minds being blinded you then quoted 1 John saying they chose not to believe because of pleasures of this world – how does that equate to Jesus saying that he came to release the prisoners, restore sight to the blind, etc
The minds of those that are blinded are not just those who for whatever reason have been brought up not knowing the bible, christianity, christinianity has its share of delusion and blindness and deception – however the bible and christianity is not the way Jesus (Yashua) the Son of God (Yahweh) is. Many in christianity are blinded and believe slightly or majorly different things all based on the bible. Christians are meant to be the messengers of reconciliation that has happened, the only thing needed now is sinners need to repent and be obedient to God.
There were warnings of spirit of antichrist 2000 years ago – the deception has been here all along and the world (including most of christianity) has been deceived all through that time
Quote (meerkat @ Dec. 08 2008,15:10) 94, When you replied to my post of unbelievers minds being blinded you then quoted 1 John saying they chose not to believe because of pleasures of this world – how does that equate to Jesus saying that he came to release the prisoners, restore sight to the blind, etc
The minds of those that are blinded are not just those who for whatever reason have been brought up not knowing the bible, christianity, christinianity has its share of delusion and blindness and deception – however the bible and christianity is not the way Jesus (Yashua) the Son of God (Yahweh) is. Many in christianity are blinded and believe slightly or majorly different things all based on the bible. Christians are meant to be the messengers of reconciliation that has happened, the only thing needed now is sinners need to repent and be obedient to God.
There were warnings of spirit of antichrist 2000 years ago – the deception has been here all along and the world (including most of christianity) has been deceived all through that time
And if someone has been deceived, there is still a chance that they will believe and be saved. In fact the scripture states that all of humanity were in unbelief at one time or another. We believed when we heard the gospel or we believed at some point later, but either way it was because we believed and turned to God with a repentant heart that we were saved.Yes, Jesus came to set the captive free through the gospel whatever the cause of their unbelief.
I hope that I have answered your question, but if not, please let me know.
God Bless
Hi Sis Meerkat,
Welcome to this wonderful family of God, Heavennet. I find your thoughts are rational and in line with the scriptures. Do share more from the treasury of God's wisdom. I agree with you and brother Gene on this another myth called 'free will' given to human beings. God is the potter and we are the clay. The clay doesn't have its choice to choose its destiny. Its destiny depends on the mind of the potter.May God continue to bless you with more insights.
Thanks and love to you
AdamQuote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:42) Hi Sis Meerkat,
Welcome to this wonderful family of God, Heavennet. I find your thoughts are rational and in line with the scriptures. Do share more from the treasury of God's wisdom. I agree with you and brother Gene on this another myth called 'free will' given to human beings. God is the potter and we are the clay. The clay doesn't have its choice to choose its destiny. Its destiny depends on the mind of the potter.May God continue to bless you with more insights.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
Hi Adam,Thanks for the welcome, I will be sticking around, I like what I see here.
I am seeking truth, and by nature am a reader and listener, not really a talker.
Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:42) Hi Sis Meerkat,
Welcome to this wonderful family of God, Heavennet. I find your thoughts are rational and in line with the scriptures. Do share more from the treasury of God's wisdom. I agree with you and brother Gene on this another myth called 'free will' given to human beings. God is the potter and we are the clay. The clay doesn't have its choice to choose its destiny. Its destiny depends on the mind of the potter.May God continue to bless you with more insights.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
Greetings G…..I have examined your premise with resprct to the potter and yes in a literal sense your interpretation of the scriptures are correct….Now lets examine the premise…If we had no freedom to choose right from wrong why would God have given us his law and the commandments…Why would he make wisdom available to us on request….Why would he want to show us evil in the face of good….We are indeed the clay and God can mold us as he sees fit but when the molding is finished our utility is determined by what we can retain…We could hold liquid or we could crack….If we do not have the freedom to choose good over evil we would be the same as programable robots…Hi ,
Was Paul forced to serve Christ or did he have to make obedient choices?Acts 22
6And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.7And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
9And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
10And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
11And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
12And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
Quote (theodorej @ Dec. 08 2008,23:53) Quote (gollamudi @ Dec. 08 2008,16:42) Hi Sis Meerkat,
Welcome to this wonderful family of God, Heavennet. I find your thoughts are rational and in line with the scriptures. Do share more from the treasury of God's wisdom. I agree with you and brother Gene on this another myth called 'free will' given to human beings. God is the potter and we are the clay. The clay doesn't have its choice to choose its destiny. Its destiny depends on the mind of the potter.May God continue to bless you with more insights.
Thanks and love to you
Adam
Greetings G…..I have examined your premise with resprct to the potter and yes in a literal sense your interpretation of the scriptures are correct….Now lets examine the premise…If we had no freedom to choose right from wrong why would God have given us his law and the commandments…Why would he make wisdom available to us on request….Why would he want to show us evil in the face of good….We are indeed the clay and God can mold us as he sees fit but when the molding is finished our utility is determined by what we can retain…We could hold liquid or we could crack….If we do not have the freedom to choose good over evil we would be the same as programable robots…
Hi Theo,I think it is a bit of both, we are definitely clay being molded – God says so, also we certainly do have the choice to obey or rebel, so NOT robots however with all our choices if we rebel we reap wrath and wrath abides until repentance, upon repentance is mercy.
That is the formula that you see throughout the bible starting from Adam.
Command – choice – rebellion – wrath – repentance – mercy – obedience
If there is no rebellion there is no mercy. And we are told all have sinned. All need to repent (knee bow, submit, obey) then will come mercy.
Where theology runs rampant is where one part is taken out of context “we are clay being molded” and made into a dogma that says that because we are clay we have no choice. Or the opposite scenario we have will, we can rebel, so we can rebel forever, wrath must be forever so no mercy for those who have not repented by their physical death, so Gods mercy is dependant on our choice.
It is the same with 1 Cor 15:21-28 Most christians have been taught that the sequence ends at verse 23 and the rest is just assigned to the rubbish tip (gehenna, hell, fiery eternal torment) – God has forgotton about his plan of the redemption of the whole world and will just rescue the elect/chosen.
Hi MK,
Some clay is for wrath.Rom9
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Where is it written that God plans to save the whole world?
What He has said is that He wants to and we are not allowed to fill in the gaps as His plan.
Nick of the same lump – there are 2 vessels, one for dishonour (rebellious flesh, to be destroyed) corrupible …….. and one for honour and glory, incorruptible
Hi MK,
2Tim2
20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Yes some are obviously used for good and some for evil and some are a mixture of both, some accept and obey, some rebel. What God uses them for is not a reflection on the ultimate destiny – the climax of Gods plan – that even you say is inscrutible.
Rebellion reaps wrath, repentance/obedience obtains mercy.
Nick,
Are you thinking that if someone who has not believed obtains mercy after their physical death that it take away from your salvation, does it make you think that there is no purpose to your repentance? That you can be rebellious and obtain mercy later – the only thing is if you are called to repentance and don't repent wrath remains until repentance.
The parable of the vineyard
Matt 20:1-16 “For the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who was the master of a household, who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. He went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace. To them he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did likewise. About the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle. He said to them, ‘Why do you stand here all day idle?’ “They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ “He said to them, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and you will receive whatever is right.’ When evening had come, the lord of the vineyard said to his steward, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning from the last to the first.’ “When those who were hired at about the eleventh hour came, they each received a denarius. When the first came, they supposed that they would receive more; and they likewise each received a denarius. When they received it, they murmured against the master of the household, saying, ‘These last have spent one hour, and you have made them equal to us, who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat!’ “But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Didn’t you agree with me for a denarius? Take that which is yours, and go your way. It is my desire to give to this last just as much as to you. Isn’t it lawful for me to do what I want to with what I own? Or is your eye evil, because I am good?’ So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few are chosen.”
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