Free Will?

Participant

Hi CO:

The reason I asked whether or not Christians are considered children of God is because of the following scripture in 1 John. I know that you indicated that this epistle was not applicable to us, but says:

Quote

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 ¶ In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother

And 1 John 3:10 how we distinguish between the children of God and those who are not.

I don't have time to get into the scriptures in the book of Romans tonight, but I'll try to do this tommorrow night, if the Lord is willing and creeks don't rise.

God Bless

October 6, 2008 at 4:19 am#109861

Participant

Hi CO:

You say:

Quote

I believe the answer is “yes”. But again, many who think they are “christian”, may not neccessarily be. Only God knows for sure.

You go by Chosenone which implies that you are chosen by God. So are you a child of God? Or does only God know for sure?

October 6, 2008 at 5:16 pm#109882

Participant

Hi 942767.
You ask: ” So are you a child of God? Or does only God know for sure?” Only God knows for sure.

Blessings.

October 6, 2008 at 11:13 pm#109907

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Oct. 07 2008,05:16)

Hi 942767.
You ask: ” So are you a child of God? Or does only God know for sure?” Only God knows for sure.

Blessings.

Hi CO:

Both the Lord and you can know for sure that you are a child of God. God loves you and sent His Only Begotten Son to be the propitiation for your sins. Would you like to know for sure that you are a child of God?

You have acknowledged that the epistle of Romans is applicable to us from the gentile nations, and I believe that there are scriptures within that book than will confirm what I have said “that you can know without a doubt that you are a child of God.”

If you would like for me to go over these scriptures with you, please let me know.

God Bless

October 8, 2008 at 5:51 pm#110023

Participant

Hi 942767.
I would be pleased to hear of your opinion on this.

Blessings.

October 8, 2008 at 9:17 pm#110035

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (doneb666 @ Oct. 05 2008,10:25)

Angels did not have free will but were created to serve. Why is it that mankind was chosen over them ?

It is written that we will be like the angels.

Angels haven't received the grace that we have.

But they obviously have free will, otherwise how did they choose to rebel?

October 8, 2008 at 11:56 pm#110040

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 09 2008,09:17)

Quote (doneb666 @ Oct. 05 2008,10:25)

Angels did not have free will but were created to serve. Why is it that mankind was chosen over them ?

It is written that we will be like the angels.

Angels haven't received the grace that we have.

But they obviously have free will, otherwise how did they choose to rebel?

Hi t8.
Could they have chosen to rebel “because it was Gods will”?

Take for instance Pharaoh, who when told by Moses and Aaron to let Israel go free, he not only said “no', but increased their labor.
When Moses returned to God and told Him this, God said “Now you will see what I will do to Pharaoh…” You have heard this story I'm sure, how Pharaoh would not let the Israelites go after each plague, yet after the eighth plague, when Pharaoh again let them go,but this time “the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart” (Ex.10:20) so he changed his mind. Then again after the ninth plague, a similar thing, “the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart: (Ex.10:27)
Notice how it was God that made Pharaohs choice for him by “hardening his heart”. You see “All is of God”.
Notice what is said in Ro. 9:18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.
Take carefull note what is said in Ro.9:17-18:
17 For the scripture is saying to Pharaoh that “For this selfsame thing I rouse you up, so that I should be displaying in you My power, and so that My name should be published in the entire earth.”
18 Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening.

Can there be any doubt Who is in charge, and is …”according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Do we have “free will”, did Pharaoh exercise his “free will?”
No, his will (Pharaoh) was to keep Israel slaves. Whos' will was done?

Blessings.

October 9, 2008 at 2:05 am#110043

epistemaniac

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Oct. 09 2008,11:56)

Quote (t8 @ Oct. 09 2008,09:17)

Quote (doneb666 @ Oct. 05 2008,10:25)

Angels did not have free will but were created to serve. Why is it that mankind was chosen over them ?

It is written that we will be like the angels.

Angels haven't received the grace that we have.

But they obviously have free will, otherwise how did they choose to rebel?

Hi t8.
Could they have chosen to rebel “because it was Gods will”?

Can there be any doubt Who is in charge, and is …”according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Do we have “free will”, did Pharaoh exercise his “free will?”
No, his will (Pharaoh) was to keep Israel slaves. Whos' will was done?

Blessings.

what I really fine interesting about the Pharaoh/hardened heart story is that before Moses ever began to confront Pharaoh, God said that He will harden the Pharaoh's heart…. most people, I think do not realize this…. Exodus 4:21 (ESV) And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.”
Theologian Robert Reymond says about this passage:
6. During the events leading up to the exodus from Egypt God represented himself as the One who makes man “dumb or deaf, or seeing or blind” (Exod. 4:11). He also arranged every detail of the exodus event to highlight the great salvific truth that it is he who must take the initiative and save his chosen people if they were to be saved at all, because they were incapable of saving themselves. During his conversation with Moses before Israel’s exodus from Egypt, God declared that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart throughout the course of the ten plagues precisely in order to (see the לְמַעַן, lema˓an, “in order to,” in Exod. 10:1; 11:9) “multiply” his signs so that he might place his sovereign power in the boldest possible relief, so that both Egypt and Israel would learn that he is God. This repeated demonstration of God’s sovereign power, the text of Exodus 3–14 informs us, God accomplished through the means of his repeatedly hardening Pharaoh’s heart.
In order to claim that God’s hardening activity in this story is to be viewed only as a reactionary, conditional, and judicial hardening rather than a more ultimate, discriminating, and distinguishing hardening, some theologians have argued that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart only after Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart. A careful assessment of the biblical data will show, however, that there is nothing in the entire Exodus context to suggest that this is the proper approach to this crux interpretum. It is true, of course, that Pharaoh would already have had a sinner’s heart prior to the event, and it is also true that three times we are informed that Pharaoh hardened his heart, but these facts alone do not require that we must say that Pharaoh would necessarily have hardened his heart against Israel after the first confrontation (Exod. 7:6–13). He could just as easily and readily, in God’s providence, have been convinced by the first confrontation that the better part of wisdom dictated his letting Israel go. A careful examination of the biblical text will show not only that ten times is it said that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart,19 but also that God twice declared to Moses, even before the series of confrontations between Moses and Pharaoh began, that he would harden Pharaoh’s heart “and [thereby] multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt” (Exod. 4:21; 7:3). The first time then that it is said that Pharaoh’s heart was hard, the text expressly declares that it was so “just as the Lord had spoken” (Exod. 7:13), clearly indicating that Pharaoh’s hardness of heart had came about due to God’s previous promise to harden it. And the first time it is said that Pharaoh “made his heart hard,” again we are informed that it was so “just as the Lord had spoken” (8:15; see also 8:19; 9:12, 35). Paul would later declare in Romans 9 that in his hardening activity God was merely exercising his sovereign right as the Potter to do with his own as he pleased (Rom. 9:17–18, 21). In the Exodus context, God, in fact, declared to Pharaoh that the reason behind his raising Pharaoh up and placing him on the throne of Egypt (or “preserving him” upon the throne, as some translators construe the Hebrew) was in order to show by him his power and in order to proclaim his own name throughout the earth (Exod. 9:16; see also Rom. 9:17). It is evident from both Exodus and Romans that Pharaoh and Egypt were at the disposition of an absolute Sovereign.
Reymond, R. L. (1998). A New Systematic Theology of the Christian Faith. Lectures delivered at Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Mo. and Knox Theological Seminary, Fort Lauderdale, Fla. (358). Nashville: T. Nelson.

Yep…. God is in charge…. Paul tells us this in many places, but very exhaustively here: Ephesians 1:11 (ESV) In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

“While many verses teach these things about the divine plan (see especially Ps. 115:3; Job 42:2; and Daniel 4:35 for the all inclusiveness of God’s plan), I suggest that Eph. 1:11 is especially compelling. Paul writes `also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works out all things after the counsel of His will.’ This is part of Paul’s description of the blessings we have in Christ because of our salvation. It speaks of our inheritance as believers, an inheritance that is ours because God predestined us to salvation. So, the general theme of the section and of the verse in particular is our salvation. The phrase `who works …. will’ is a relative clause which modifies `
His’. The relative clause is part of a participle clause (`having been predestined …. His will) that modifies the main verb `obtained’. So the initial focus of the verse is that in Christ, believers have received an inheritance. The rest of the verse amplifies and explains how this has happened. It has happened because we were predestined according to God’s purpose. Moreover, the one who predestined us also works all things after the counsel of His will.
Unless there is a distinction in this verse between purpose, counsel, and will of God, it is tremendously redundant. Commentators suggest that the different terms are not identical in this passage. `Purpose’ (prothesin) refers to the goal God intends to accomplish; it is His ultimate design. Paul says that our predestination to salvation was done according to that design or aim. This means that our election wasn’t based on what God foresaw about how we would respond when told the gospel. If Paul had meant that, he could have easily said that. Saying that we were predestined according to God’s purposes suggests that His decision was based solely on His desires, i.e., it was unconditional.
The nerxt phrase (relative clause) confirms that election was based on God’s design alone. Again Paul could have said that God works all things or even some things (or at least salvation) (and this is exactly the point I am making!) according to what He foresees about us. Instead, he writes that election fits the purposes of the one who works everything after the counsel of His will. Election is a particular instance of God’s general modus operandi. As to the distinction between `counsel’ (boule) and will (thelema), `counsel’ indicates purpose and deliberation. It can even refer to the plan that springs from such deliberation. On the other hand `will’ simply denotes choosing. The whole participle phrase then teaches that our predestination to salvation was done according to a divine pattern. That pattern is: God has a purpose or goal He wants to accomplish. He deliberates about the best way to reach His goal, and from that deliberative process springs forth a plan (boule) that He deems best. God wills (thelema) that plan, and then brings it to pass (energountos). Nothing in the verse suggests that the purpose, the deliberating, or the choosing of the plan is based on anything other than God. Hence, the verse seems to teach unconditional decision… Two further points about this verse are noteworthy. One is that the focus of the main verb is clearly salvation. Moreover, the participle that begins the participle phrase (`having been predestined’) refers to matters of salvation…. The other point about this verse is that Paul does not say that God has authority and power to predestine us according to His purposes alone, but never exercises it. Nor does Paul say that God as sovereign has the power to work all things according to the counsel of His will, but He chooses to forego using that power. Rather, Eph. 1:3-14 speaks of things that God not only has the right and power to do but actually does.” (No One Like Him, John S. Feinberg, pps 681-682)

blessings,
Ken

October 9, 2008 at 5:36 am#110054

Participant

Hi Ken.
A very good article, thank you.

Blessings.

October 11, 2008 at 12:53 am#110143

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Oct. 09 2008,05:51)

Hi 942767.
I would be pleased to hear of your opinion on this.

Blessings.

Hi CO:

I will share not my opinion but the truth with you. I have a personal relationship with God and I know that I am saved, and so can anyone who believes that God is a reality and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ is true, can have a personal relationship with Him and know that they are saved.

You have indicated that the gospels are not applicable to us the gentiles, and therefore, what Jesus states about being born again does not apply to us, but you have indicated that the epistle of Romans does apply to us, and there are scriptures which describe the born again experience which means that you have died to sin and have been raised again from the dead haveing had all of your sins washed away by the blood of the Lord Jesus, and God now has become the Father of your spirit, and Jesus has become your Lord.

You know that if we break the laws of society and we are caught the judgment will follow and if we are found guilty, we will be punished according to the severity of the crime.

The penalty for violating God's Laws(this is called sin) is death which means spiritual separation from God because He has not forgiven your sins. If you are dead or spiritually separated from God, it means that you don't have a personal relationship with Him. You may believe that He exists, but you don't know this for a fact. In this state it also means that He will not answer your prayers.

The scripture states:

Quote

Rom 5:12 ¶ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

And so, we see clearly that all men have sinned and and they are dead or separated from God if they have not been reconciled to Him.

And so all of humanity has been guilty of violating God's laws or sinning against Him, and the penalty for this is death.

Quote

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

And so, the above scripture shows that what humanity has earned by violating God's laws is death, but it also shows that God has given us a gift of eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ if he is our Lord.

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Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life

Romans 5:10 shows that we can be reconciled to God, and the following scriptures tells us how:

Quote

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We are reconciled to God by faith, that is in trusting that He is a reality, and that His testimony regarding His Son and His Christ is true. By confessing that Jesus is your Lord you are indicating by your confession that you will obey his commandments. We are not saved by works, but the works that follow show that we have repented and are in the faith.
When we have confessed Jesus as our Lord, we should follow this with water baptism which shows our union with him in his death, burial and resurrection.

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Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 ¶ What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

And then there are following scriptures:

Quote

Rom 8:1 ¶ [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

God loves you and or anyone can have a personal relationship with Him and know that they are saved the moment they receive the Holy Spirit.

Please let me know if you have any questions?

God Bless

October 15, 2008 at 12:03 am#110341

Participant

Hi 942767.
Thanks for your reply on “how to be saved and know it”.
I agree that Pauls epistles are for us, and his letter to the Romans, which you quote, are for us.

You say: Romans 5:10 shows that we can be reconciled to God, and the following scriptures tells us how:

Quote
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

I agree that the 'saved' will do these things, no disagreement there. But the part I disagree with is that you feel that it is us that save ourselves by doing this by our “free will”. My opinion is that “all is of God”. See Ro.11:35-36 …35 or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid Him?
36 seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!
This plainly says that it is God who does it all for us, not our effort, see where it says 'who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? Your own effort does not count!

We must read all of Pauls epistles to understand the whole “truth”, not just dwell on certain parts that effect our beliefs. Again, your quotes are correct, and what you say is needed for salvation is also correct, but further study of Pauls epistles reveal that this is NOT of you.
Here are some scriptures that explain this:

Ro.8:32-33 … 32 Surely, He Who spares not His own Son, but gives Him up for us all, how shall He not, together with Him, also, be graciously granting us all?
33 Who will be indicting God's chosen ones? God, the Justifier?

This shows that God chooses us, we do not choose Him.

Ro.11:7-8 …7 What then? What Israel is seeking for, this she did not encounter, yet the chosen encountered it. Now the rest were calloused,
8 even as it is written, God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day

This is talking about Israel, but shows how God is completely in control, “His will' is being done.

Eph.2:8-10 …8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,
9 not of works, lest anyone should be boasting.
10 For His achievement are we, being created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God makes ready beforehand, that we should be walking in them.

Notice that “God makes beforehand”, all is predestined.

2Cor.5:18-19 …18 Yet all is of God, Who conciliates us to Himself through Christ, and is giving us the dispensation of the conciliation,
19 how that God was in Christ, conciliating the world to Himself, not reckoning their offenses to them, and placing in us the word of the conciliation.
Notice it is God who has “conciliated the world to Himself, not reckoning our sins against us”? Nothing we did!

2Tim.2:10 …10 Therefore I (Paul) am enduring all because of those who are chosen, that they also may be happening upon the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with glory eonian.
This is a powerfull scripture, no doubt that “all is of God” we have no part in our salvation!

Phil.2:12-13 …12 So that, my beloved, according as you always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much rather in my absence, with fear and trembling, be carrying your own salvation into effect,
13 for it is God Who is operating in you to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight.
This can be misunderstood if taken out of context, but verse 13 clears this up, “God operating in you”, not your own “free will”.

Finally, to sum things up see Ro.8:17, …17 Yet if children, enjoyers also of an allotment, enjoyers, indeed, of an allotment from God, yet joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment, if so be that we are suffering together, that we should be glorified together also.

This scripture is truly awesome, imagine, we will be “joint enjoyers of Christ's allotment”. What a blessing! and all this is the work of God, we have no hand in it, (lest we shoul boast)!

This is my belief, that “all is of God”, quoted in scripture many times, and I find myself completely at the mercy of a loving God, and feel overly blessed to be “a child of God”.

Blessings, Jerry.

October 15, 2008 at 12:09 am#110342

Participant

Hi CO,
Are all men naturally children of God who should just rest on their laurels??

Jesus seemed to say otherwise. Some he even identified as children of the devil.

How do you know which group you belong to? Sheep or goats?

October 16, 2008 at 8:13 pm#110489

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 15 2008,12:09)

Hi CO,
Are all men naturally children of God who should just rest on their laurels??

Jesus seemed to say otherwise. Some he even identified as children of the devil.

How do you know which group you belong to? Sheep or goats?

Nick.

Matt.15:24. See where misunderstanding scripture gets you?

October 16, 2008 at 8:32 pm#110499

Participant

Hi CO,
AS YOU SAY ALL HIS TEACHINGS ARE FOR US

He said
“Walk while the light is with you”
so no armchair salvation is possible .

HJe divides men into sheep and goats.
Are who is a sheep or a goat?

October 16, 2008 at 8:40 pm#110501

Participant

“FOR US” not “ABOUT US”. There is a difference, do you not understand?

October 16, 2008 at 8:42 pm#110503

Participant

Hi CO,
Listen to him.
He spoke FOR YOU

October 16, 2008 at 8:47 pm#110505

Participant

Nick.
It is pointless to discuss this topic until you can understand English grammer. We can return to this topic after you get some lessons.

Blessings.

October 16, 2008 at 8:53 pm#110506

Participant

Hi CO,
You said his teachings are for you but you refuse them?

October 16, 2008 at 9:02 pm#110509

Participant

Nick.
I give up, read for yourself Matt.15:24. Take this scripture to your local school and find an English teacher to explain to you what this means.

October 16, 2008 at 9:20 pm#110512