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This entire debate is the result of extremism on both sides of the isle. Let me see if I can interject some balance?
Joh 3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.
Think about that statement….surely, you can recieve Gods word….but only if it is given to you to do so.
Look at Adam and Eve. They surely had a choices to make. What choices were those? Only those that God gave them.
This truth is no better illustrated than in the crucifixion. God did not force anyone to crucify Jesus. They made that choice on their own. Yet in that choice they did precisely what God wanted, and made eternal salvation possible for all those who believe. Yet, they are condemned for their choice. Look at Judas. Jesus said that he called Judas knowing he was a devil (John 6:70). Judas was predestined to be “the son of perdition”. It was prophesied in scripture, and if you read the prophecy in the Psalms, you will be shocked at what happened to this man as a result of his choice. Yet, because of what the scriptures say about him, he could not have chosen otherwise.
Look at Pauls conversion. This man was knocked off of his horse and blinded by the Lord himself. Could anyone have chosen otherwise than he did?? Would you have?
The fact is, we are all incapable of seeking God, and certainly not bent to do so, without their first coming a change. Now we can, and often do resist the inherent revelation that accompanies that change, but we cannot deny what has happened to us.
God need not force you to choose Him. He need only reveal himself to you. Had he done so for those who crucified Him, they never would have done it, and he knew it (Mat 13:11, 1 Cor 2:8).
Quote (lamontre @ June 10 2007,17:59) Judas was predestined to be “the son of perdition”. It was prophesied in scripture, and if you read the prophecy in the Psalms, you will be shocked at what happened to this man as a result of his choice. Yet, because of what the scriptures say about him, he could not have chosen otherwise.
I hear what you're saying.But doesn't it make you wonder then….. I mean, thank God he hasn't chosen or predestined ME to do something terrible that would cause me to be separated from his presence. And yet those people, like Judas were/are necessary. It's confusing to me, really. It doesn't seem quite fair, but then who am I to question God!!
Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.No one knows what his place is in the grand plan, until such time as he does what is required to reveal it;
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?Think about this:
What is the difference between these persons…..Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
….and this person….
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Why is it this man is fruitful? What does he have (or what does he lack) that the other's didn't??
Who clears away the stones, and who leaves them in place?
Quote (lamontre @ June 10 2007,18:22) Who clears away the stones, and who leaves them in place?
To me, this speaks of the foundations we build to receive God's Word in our lives.For instance, my sister lives her life for herself and whatever pleasures she can find. She says she loves God, but she has no time for him, nor does she seek him out. Consequently, she has received the Word, but has fallen away due to worldly ambitions.
I have always strived to live for God and to seek him out – earnestly! I have laid a foundation to receive the Word and nourish it to full growth. Consequently, I have seen a harvest where my dear sister has not.
But with all of this, I wonder, if it can be as you say that we do not know the full plan of our destiny's until they are revealed……could I have laid this foundation for nothing? And at some point be predestined to do evil such as Lazarus?
LM – cool avatar – it scared me because when I posted you didn't have one and I just looked up and there it was! Ha! It's getting late here and I guess I'm getting jumpy. Better head to bed soon….
Quote (lamontre @ June 10 2007,18:22) Mar 14:18 And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me.
Mar 14:19 And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.
Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
Mat 26:23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.
Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mat 26:25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.No one knows what his place is in the grand plan, until such time as he does what is required to reveal it;
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?Think about this:
What is the difference between these persons…..Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
….and this person….
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Why is it this man is fruitful? What does he have (or what does he lack) that the other's didn't??
Who clears away the stones, and who leaves them in place?
Hi LAM,
Do you believe the Spirit of God in Christ could not know the future and the choices men make before they have made them and do you think this foreknowledge denies them that choice?Quote Why is it this man is fruitful? What does he have (or what does he lack) that the other's didn't?? Hi LAM: I believe that the answer to this is that he had Faith in God's Word.
1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.God Bless
Hi 94,
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy and the men of old steeped in this Spirit
longed to see clearly what was as yet as through a glass darkly.
In Christ was the fullness of the Spirit.
He saw.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,06:00) Hi 94,
The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of Prophecy and the men of old steeped in this Spirit
longed to see clearly what was as yet as through a glass darkly.
In Christ was the fullness of the Spirit.
He saw.
Hi Nick:Yes, I believe that this is the truth of God's Word.
God Bless
Not3in1,June wrote:[/quote]
Quote To me, this speaks of the foundations we build to receive God's Word in our lives. For instance, my sister lives her life for herself and whatever pleasures she can find. She says she loves God, but she has no time for him, nor does she seek him out. Consequently, she has received the Word, but has fallen away due to worldly ambitions.
I have always strived to live for God and to seek him out – earnestly! I have laid a foundation to receive the Word and nourish it to full growth. Consequently, I have seen a harvest where my dear sister has not.
But with all of this, I wonder, if it can be as you say that we do not know the full plan of our destiny's until they are revealed……could I have laid this foundation for nothing? And at some point be predestined to do evil such as Lazarus?
You laid the foundation for your salvation??
You may be mischaracterizing those verses just slightly, I am not sure but that one of those three are actually saved at all.
I mean the only one that might be doubtful is the seed planted among thorns, and yet Jesus made clear in John 15, that whoever does not produce fruit, is not saved.
Remember;
1Co 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;Are you certain that you yourself would not be as foolish as your sister, were it not for the grace of God oin your life??
Are you sure that your sister has actually experienced that grace?
1Co 1:28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
1Co 1:29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.You cannot take credit for your own spiritual condition. It is by grace you are saved.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.What are you glorying in, your own ability to keep yourself righteous enough to recieve the implanted word, or the grace and mercy of God which has made you a new creation?
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 10 2007,19:30) Quote Hi LAM,
Do you believe the Spirit of God in Christ could not know the future and the choices men make before they have made them and do you think this foreknowledge denies them that choice?Well of course he knows the future and the choices men will make. And we do indeed make choices of our own volition. But the conditions within which those choices are made are dependent upon God. He places us in the place, and time, within which we are to make those choices. And those are the circumstances which are rather difficult for us to choose, or control. Just like the Israelites who rejected Christ. They were raised up by God to do what they did, and they did it of their own volition. But wow, those were some very extraordinary circumstances into which they were cast.
If you are arminian, you believe you chose to be saved, and that is true. But when the creator of the universe births, and reveals himself to His creation, I don't know of any reason why it should choose to reject Him.
I always ask this question;
What are the conditions of the new birth? I mean, salvation is dependant upon the individuals belief in Christ. What is the new birth of an individual based upon?Quote (942767 @ June 11 2007,01:41) Quote Hi LAM: I believe that the answer to this is that he had Faith in God's Word. 1Jo 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.God Bless
Faith is a gift. Unbelievers do not have biblical faith, only believers do.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Hi Lam,
All is grace but
Rom 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
AND
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.Quote (lamontre @ June 11 2007,08:25) Are you certain that you yourself would not be as foolish as your sister, were it not for the grace of God oin your life??
True; even our faith is a gift from God.We are not saved by the righteous things that we do, but by the mercy of God.
Does this mean because I strive to please God and my sister does not – that I have a greater gift of faith than she? Hmmmm
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,08:49) Hi Lam,
All is grace but
Rom 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
AND
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
I am not sure what your point is here, can you comment further?Quote (Not3in1 @ June 11 2007,09:01) Does this mean because I strive to please God and my sister does not – that I have a greater gift of faith than she? Hmmmm
You can't be saved wrong. You either are, or you aren't. There is no inbetween condition.Hi LAM,
God gives a little faith to all men so that they might turn to Him Who reveals Himself through the wonders of creation.
However faith is also a gift of the Spirit of God to the sons of God unto the moving of mountains.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 11 2007,09:12) Hi LAM,
God gives a little faith to all men so that they might turn to Him Who reveals Himself through the wonders of creation.
However faith is also a gift of the Spirit of God to the sons of God unto the moving of mountains.
I think Romans 1 makes clear that the general revelation contained in the creation is not sufficient to overcome the total depravity of men.2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
It is an absolute requirement that a man be born again. This precludes the possibility that unregenerate men have biblical faith.
Faith in Christ is an evidence of the new birth.
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