Free Will?

[sscott]

As I think on the subject of the free will of man I have come across scripture that seems to show that mans free will is not always as free as we think it is.

Two instances:

23 For there stood by me this night an angel of the God to whom I belong and whom I serve, 24 saying, 'Do not be afraid, Paul; you must be brought before Caesar; and indeed God has granted you all those who sail with you.' (Acts 27:23-24)

Here and Angel tells Paul that God has given him all the lives in the boat. It's a done deal.

Then you have Paul saying:

31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men stay in the ship, you cannot be saved.” 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the skiff and let it fall off.

Paul knew God have given him the lives yet he gave the men a choice. Could the men have chosen another option? I don't think so. God gave them to Paul. Their choice seemed like free will but was it really? Was the choice a mean to an end? It's interesting.

Here's another example I came across while reading 1 Samuel:

Sauls servant says:

6 And he said to him, “Look now, there is in this city a man of God, and he is an honorable man; all that he says surely comes to pass. So let us go there; perhaps he can show us the way that we should go.” (1 Sam 9:6)

Then Saul says:
10 Then Saul said to his servant, “Well said; come, let us go.” So they went to the city where the man of God was. ( 1 Sam 9:10)

It looks like Saul and his servant are choosing to go see Samuel. But look at what the Lord tells Samuel:

16 “Tomorrow about this time I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin, and you shall anoint him commander over My people Israel, that he may save My people from the hand of the Philistines; for I have looked upon My people, because their cry has come to Me.”

So God actually sent Saul to Samuel. Could Saul have chosen to reject his servants advise to go see Samuel? I don't think so. So what appeared to be a free will choice was only one in part.

Some of the lines between God's Sovereignty and Mans Free will get blurred for me the close I look at these things. Maybe this falls under the category of “seeing dimly”. I am starting to see though that mans “free-will” is not always as free as we think it is.

[joejoe]

GOD CHOOSES MAN, MAN DOES NOT CHOOSE GOD

Do you deny the total depravity of man, and hold that the will of man is free and has the ability to choose Christ and the salvation that is in Him?  Such teaching is false and delusive since the Scriptures represent election as occurring in the past, irrespective of personal merit.

    ‘The children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated’ (Romans 9: 11-13).

The unregenerate person has no free will of spiritual matters.  This means they can do nothing pertaining to their salvation.  This is because of the Fall.  God told Adam, if you eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt surely die.  Obviously, Adam didn’t die as we think of people dying today because Adam went on to live for hundreds of years.  Adam died a spiritual death.  But through his fall he brought spiritual death upon himself and all his posterity.  He thereby plunged himself and the entire race into spiritual ruin and lost for himself and his descendants the ability to make right choices in the spiritual realm.  His descendants are still free to choose – every man makes choices throughout life – but inasmuch as Adam’s offspring are born with sinful natures, they do not have the ability to choose spiritual good over evil.  Consequently, man’s will is no longer free from the dominion of sin as Adam’s will was free before the fall.  Instead, man’s will, as a result of inherited depravity, is in bondage to his sinful nature.  

It is quite evident that many unsaved people, when judged by man’s standards, do possess admirable qualities and do perform virtuous acts.  But in the spiritual realm, when judged by God’s standards, the unsaved sinner is incapable of good.  The natural man is enslaved to sin; he is a child of Satan, rebellious toward God, blind to truth, corrupt, and unable to save himself or to prepare himself for salvation.  In short, the unregenerate man is dead in sin, and his will is enslaved to his evil nature.  The will of man is free only to choose according to his moral nature, and as his nature is under the dominion of sin, man chooses accordingly.

    ‘The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned’ (I Cor. 2: 14).

    ‘No man can come unto Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day’ (John 6: 44).

    ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto Me, except it were given unto him of My Father. From that time many of His disciples went back and walked no more with Him’ (John 6: 65, 66).

    ‘All who are born again are said to be ‘born not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God’ (John 1: 13).

The sovereignty of God’s choice comes out clearly in the statement that Christ died for His people while they were yet sinners (Romans 5: 8). Therefore do not take the choice out of the hands of God and place it in your own hands.

[Proclaimer]

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So God's will is that all should be saved. So if this is his will, then surely he can make it possible for all of us to chose him, even though we are ruled by our human nature.

John 16:8
“And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

So we can see that not only is the Spirit working through all, but the message is to be preached to all.

Acts 2:21
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'

So God has chosen to save all of us and he has made it at least possible. But it is obvious that not all will except the gospel and not all will call on the name of the Lord.

To say that God is not willing that any should perish and then to also say that God only draws certain people and has created/predestined others for destruction seems to me like a contradiction.

What are your thoughts?

[joejoe]

I never said that God doesn’t want anyone to perish.  May I remind you of the Flood in Genesis as well as all those who God destroyed at Sodom and Gomorrah. God doesn’t "create/predestine others for destruction", He chooses/elects some to be saved.  For God said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15)

God could have justly left all mankind to perish in their sin and misery, but according to the good pleasure of His will, He chose in Christ, before the foundation of the world, all whom He purposed to save.

    ‘According as he hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will’ (Ephesians 1: 4,5).

    ‘And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.  For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified them He also glorified’ (Romans 8: 28-30).

These verses from among many which could be quoted, and the whole scheme of redemption from Genesis to Revelation, afford infallible and unqualified proof that salvation is of free and sovereign grace.

Don’t fool yourself into believing that conditional election is on the ground of foreseen faith, i.e. those whom God knew would repent He chose beforehand.  This is contrary to the Truth.

    ‘Whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate, etc.’ (Romans 8: 29).

The word ‘foreknow’ in the New Testament usage is employed in the sense of the Hebrew yada (know) which denotes love and favour and should be understood likewise:  ‘Whom He did forelove, He also did predistinate, etc.’

As long as men are unregenerate, they are in a state of unbelief, without hope in God and without faith in Christ.  When saved by grace, you have faith, but that not of yourselves.  It is not of your own power or free-will, but the gift of God through the efficacious teaching of the Holy Spirit.  Faith, therefore, cannot be the cause of election.  It is the effect of it and is insured by it.

    ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed’ (Acts 13: 48).

    ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith: and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them’ (Ephesians 2: 8-10).

[joejoe]

1Timothy 2:4 reads,

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”

On the surface, this certainly looks like the definitive statement concerning God’s desire to have every man and woman alive come to a saving knowledge of Him. But, that interpretation creates a whole host of conflicts.

First off, Biblical scholarship is unanimous on the fact that this letter was written by the Apostle Paul. This is the same man who wrote the great treatises to the Romans and the Ephesians, in which he declared God’s right, power and predetermined decision to save a particular people. Paul clearly states that God is all-powerful and works everything – everything! – in accordance with His own will.

So, if your interpretation of 1Timothy 2:4 is correct, we immediately have two huge dilemmas.

1.)  Paul is a very contradictory theologian. On the one hand, he clearly argues that God does all things in accordance with His own will and is powerful enough to enact every detail of His plan, especially where salvation is concerned.

“In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will.” (Eph 1:11)

Yet, on the other hand, Paul declares that God sincerely wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth, despite the fact they will not all arrive at that destination.  So, Paul does not seem to know whether God can enact His will or not.

2.)  The second, is a question of power.  Why, given God’s preeminent power, is He so incapable of seeing His supposed desire of universal salvation come to fruition?

According to Arminian apologists, the answer lies in the fact that God always allows – and indeed favors – the free will and unencumbered choice of every individual. God would never encroach on any person’s freedom of choice. Therefore, despite His expressed desire that all men be saved, some will be lost through no fault on God’s part. They simply refuse to be saved and God – in spite of His own desire – deigns to condemn them.

So, who has all the power in that relationship? Well, the sinner, of course! The human will takes precedent over the eternal, sovereign will. God is powerless to save any person who refuses His gracious offer because it is the will and desire of the creature that supercedes the will and desire of the Creator.

The implications of that notion are huge. For instance, why do we worship God and thank Him for saving us when it was actually up to us to make the saving decision? Sure, God may want everyone to be saved. But, we are the ones fulfilling His dream. He should be thanking us, don’t you think?

Or, what was Jesus doing on the cross? Was He actually saving anyone, or was He merely making salvation a possibility provided we would come along later and validate His work. To say that Jesus died for all, yet not all were saved means Jesus died in vain. In other words, salvation is no longer an act of God. It is the result of mutual effort between God and the sinner. There’s no real grace, beyond the fact that God was willing and desirous of our participation. But, in the end, it was all up to us.

Clearly, Paul was not teaching universal salvation, universal redemption, or even the notion that God’s will is ultimately thwarted. Any of those readings would force us to the inescapable conclusion that not all of Paul’s teachings are correct. And if that’s true, how can we trust anything he says? How do we know which one of Paul’s multiple positions is the correct one?

No, no. Paul was not contradicting himself. He was making a point. And, his point was the God is “no respecter of persons.” The high and mighty estates of human leaders do not impress God.

Read 1 Timothy 2:4 in its context –
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:1-6)

The primary confusion in this passage arises from Paul’s use of the word “all.” In the Greek, it’s “pas.” That little word can mean several things. It can indeed be used to include everything or everyone. But, just as easily, it is used to designate “all kinds” or “all types.”

To determine the proper meaning in 1Timothy 2:4, we need only to follow Paul’s use of this same word in this same letter.

For instance, in 1Timothy 6:10 we read –
“For the love of money is the root of all (pas) evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

What’s immediately apparent is that the love of money cannot be the root of every single evil thing that ever occurred. Certainly, this is not true. Even the first sin – Eve’s partaking of the forbidden fruit – was not motivated by money (which did not exist either materially or conceptually). So, Paul’s meaning must be more exclusive than that. And, it is. Paul’s use of the word “pas” was meant to designate “all kinds” of evil. And, most other translations render it exactly that way. The ASV, NAS, NIV and NKJV all read, “For the love of money is a root of all kinds (or ‘sorts’) of evil…”

Paul was not arguing that God desires that every individual person in the world be saved. If Almighty God desires universal salvation, then He will most assuredly accomplish universal salvation. His arm is not limited in its ability to save.

So again, despite what it may have looked like on the out-of-context surface, Paul’s use of the word “pas” designates “all kinds.” And, God is certainly willing that “all kinds” of men be saved, as opposed to Jews only; or as opposed to the downtrodden and oppressed only.

It should be obvious that Paul is continuing his “all kinds of men” line of thinking in 1 Timothy 2:4. As the apostle to the Gentiles, he knew that God was spreading his worship out into the whole world. But, Jesus the Christ, the Jewish Messiah, the fulfillment of the Hebrew Scriptures, sent to the “lost sheep of the house of Israel” was now declared to have given Himself as a ransom for all kinds of people. So, the context shows that Paul was completely consistent in his thinking and theology.

[Surgeon83]

I wonder whether or not God chooses not to know what our final destination (heaven,####) will be. If he is God, then he knows all things; past,present, and future, but if he knows what we’ll do tomorrow, then he must also know whether or not we’ll sin and whether or not we will die in sin. I suppose you can’t surprise God in such a way the he would say "wow, I didn’t think so-and-so would sin today", but I suppose it would be horrible to allow the creation of a person all the while knowing that that being will be forever tortured. Wouldn’t it be better to have never lived than to live forever apart from God? I would love to hear any more thoughts.

[Proclaimer]

I do not think that Hell is forever like Heaven. Hell is actually thrown into the Lake of Fire in the Judgement.

It all depends on whether the Lake of Fire will exist for all time even in the new Heavens and New Earth, or whether the reminder (the smoke of the torment) is forever.

Another interesting debate, but it is not related to this particular discussion, so I will pass on this thought to a discussion that it is related to.
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“>https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=1&topic=5&start=0

[thehappyman]

I guess that man thought he had control of all things created and wrought of himself.

The prophets warned the people and they still didn’t listen.
God did create people for His will and it grieved Him because of what they were doing.  So Noah was to wrought a work for those that were found upright. 8 in all.

If the elect shall bearly make it in !  ….hmmmm.
How can I be elect?……. just by asking….. and it takes the free will to ask of God.

Jesus said to preach the gospel,   – Why? – so people could hear the Word – Why? – to be given the will to choose.

The malefactor did on the cross , by his free will.
The lost that heard the Word used their free will to except Jesus into their life .
The Word said , He is not a respector of persons.

Freewill , I believe all has it to choose – we practice it everyday.
                                          happyman

(Edited by thehappyman at 8:49 am on Jan. 6, 2004)

[dmateo]

Let’s take another approach.
Man is given the choice as always. The same as Adam was given the choice. LORD God has commanded Adam not to eat the fruit. But at the same time LORD God had known that Adam would fall. Wouldn’t it be simpler for God to just prevent Adam from doing it ?

What we seems to be forgetting is God has the absolute say on all thing. The concept of justice, equality that we know of today, can’t be applied to God.

However consider the event in your life. How many possible way could your life end. And how many possible way to juggle all the possibility that could have had happened with you ? Countless one would say. For every seconds of your life could bring something new and could cause some drastic change. Do we have a choice ? I would say little. There are some thing in this life where by we were given control of the choice we can take. But there are also countless other things in this life (some of which we’re not even aware of) that we were not given the control to choose.

Now take for example. Esau was not given much choice did he ?
And neither do Pharaoh.. (pay close attention on verse 3)
Exodus 7
1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your phrophet.
2 You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country.
3. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in egypt,
4. he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people Israelites.

If we to acknowledge that God is the Almighty and that there is no supreme power above God. Can’t we also acknowledge that salvation is granted. God has allowed us choose salvation over death. Will he allow everyone ? Exodus 7:3 does not seems to agree to that, as he also can prohibit someone from gaining Salvation.
Can we say that Pharaoh is at fault of disobeying God, while it’s God that has made it impossible for him to obey Aaron Words ? Certainly not.
Then now you may say that God is unfair. But how is it unfair ? God is Almighty he has right to exercise his might over us (his creation) anyway he like. And that will still be fair. What’s unfair is for us (creation) to demand of God (creator) to do something that we thing is fair.
As much as an artist has every right to paint whatever he likes, it’s the same with God has every right to do what ever he want’s with his creation. In saying that, it includes whether to grant them salvation or not.

Consider the following verses
Hebrew 2:13
And again, "I will put my trust in him. And again he says, "Here am I, and the children God has given me."
John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
John 10:27-29
27 My sheep listen to my vioce; I know them, and they follow me
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater then all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.

So are we in control of our salvation. Those verses do show that we are not, God has to enable you to come to Christ. The fact that we are now all here in this board could as well means be one of the indication (this board is not that only indication, church, reading bible, etc would also count)that the father has enabled us to come to Christ…..;)

[Alta]

So here in is my dilemma. Is free will the ability to make a choice? Since the Lord opened my eyes some 6 yrs. ago, I began to see the lies I was believing. Most of these lies where things I had heard or things that I was taught. God has and is revealing to me the truth. The source of the lies can always be traced back to the creator of lies. Satan is the creator of lies, therefore God is the truth. As a drug addict I told myself I was practicing my free will to do as I please. I believed this lie until I decided to stop using drugs. I swore oaths to God to my wife and to my children and most of all to myself that I would stop using. Do you think I quit? I learned I was still trying to practice my free will or self determination on this problem. Later I learned ( after years of anguish ) that I did not have the power to quit. The drugs were in fact in control and they decided I would use until I died. I COULD NOT WILL THIS PROBLEM AWAY! Through Jesus, God took mercy on me and today I am free to make the choice to use or not to use. When I first made the choice to try drugs I was not practicing free will I was simply making a bad choice with dire consequences. I was a fool and I was also fooled into believing that I had some kind of control over the out come of my actions. I know some of you want to point out that free will is the ability to make a choice. God wills things into being and they begin. Is this the power God has granted to man? Will defined in the dictionary is determination. Can man determine the outcome of a human action? I know that in my Christian life my path is set before me by God. It’s a path I try my best to follow, but sometimes I veer to the left or to the right before He corrects me. I am determined to follow that path, but still. Well you know. I find I need help from outside myself. So God sets my path and then He aids me to stay on it. Does this sound like my will or Gods will. Well I could choose not to do it. In fact I have obviously made that choice in the past. I learned that by making bad choices I ended up following a different path. Was this path of my own creation because of practising my God granted power of free will? I thought so. Until I tried to practice my free will to quit drugs. I found that I had indeed fallen into a trap. Even before the drugs my worldly views led me into other traps. I believed money could solve my problems, but when I began to make a lot of money I found I had more problems. Which eventually led to a new drug problem and so on. So by denying God and practicing my free will I was falling into traps. But, who set the traps? I had believed lies that led me into traps. Satan is the author of lies and deception. By believing these lies and deceptions was I following my will or satans will? Ask any drug addict if he or she believes in God, some will some won’t. Ask any addict if he believes in satan. He will answer yes. It’s because using drugs is dabbling in the occult. Therefore drug use is satans tool. It is the reason an addict can’t successfully quit on his own. He is doing satans will and is therefore controlled. Sometimes satan will allow a person to swap addictions as long as he can keep them fooled. These people will stop using only to become workaholics or alcoholics or what ever, but the one constant in it is that that person will be controlled by him. All in all I don’t see where a person is practising anything close to free will. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge was she practicing free will or was she fooled into doing someone else’s will? Saying that someone is practising free will is not saying they have the ability to make a choice. It is saying that they have the ability to direct the outcome of the choices they make. If you believe you have this ability then tell me the day you will physically die. Free will is something I have determined satan uses to keep people fooled and also to make them feel guilty and unworthy. God never makes us feel guilty or unworthy. God convicts us of our sins and then forgives us all the while telling us how worthy and important you truly are. Although guilt and conviction might seem like the same thing they are not. One is used put down and degrade while the other is used to teach correct and edify. In fact they are exact opposites. Saying free will is the same as making a choice is much like guilt and conviction. If you still don’t see the difference then the next time you have diarrea, use your will to make it go away. God gave man the ability to make choices not the ability to create or own destiny by the power of our will. We can choose to follow Gods will are we can reject it. When we reject Gods will we don’t live by our own terms we then live by the devil’s will. Maybe this is of no importance, but I think it is and I would sure like to hear your thoughts.
Thank You
Alta

[Bastian]

Hi Alta,

I enjoyed reading your post. Anytime I question the type of things that you are questioning I always look to the Master for answers. We know that our Lord was tempted as we are. Yet, he never sinned how was able to do this? He always did his Father’s will, not his own, even unto death.

Anytime we are outside of the will of God, we are doing what we will. Man’s way leads to sin, and sin leads to death. I found it interesting that some of your friends do not believe in God but they do believe in Satan. Humanity doesn’t give itself enough credit, left to their own devices they do not need a supernatural adversary. The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and wanting to be gods, nothing has changed since the beginning of time.

Quote: All in all I don't see where a person is practising anything close to free will. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge was she practicing free will or was she fooled into doing someone else's will? Saying that someone is practising free will is not saying they have the ability to make a choice. It is saying that they have the ability to direct the outcome of the choices they make. If you believe you have this ability then tell me the day you will physically die. Free will is something I have determined satan uses to keep people fooled and also to make them feel guilty and unworthy.

Eve was doing exactly what she wanted to do. Eve broke the God’s law. God had commanded that she not eat from the tree of knowledge, she broke covenant with Him. She was not doing anyone’s will but her own.

Having free will is the ability to make choices that is what free will is. You do direct the outcome. Read the book of proverbs. What does being able to see into the future have to do with making good, and bad choices today? If I decide to go out and steal a car. I know it is against the law therefore, if I am caught, I will go to jail. I am using my free will to make a choice to steal a car, I know what the outcome will be, and it is not good. Everything was created for, and by God, and for His God purpose, not for the adversary. You give the adversary too much power. Don’t you believe that greater is He that is in you, then he that is in the world.

[kenrch]

Quote (Alta @ Feb. 20 2006,02:12)

So here in is my dilemma. Is free will the ability to make a choice? Since the Lord opened my eyes some 6 yrs. ago, I began to see the lies I was believing. Most of these lies where things I had heard or things that I was taught. God has and is revealing to me the truth. The source of the lies can always be traced back to the creator of lies. Satan is the creator of lies, therefore God is the truth. As a drug addict I told myself I was practicing my free will to do as I please. I believed this lie until I decided to stop using drugs. I swore oaths to God to my wife and to my children and most of all to myself that I would stop using. Do you think I quit? I learned I was still trying to practice my free will or self determination on this problem. Later I learned ( after years of anguish ) that I did not have the power to quit. The drugs were in fact in control and they decided I would use until I died. I COULD NOT WILL THIS PROBLEM AWAY! Through Jesus, God  took mercy on me and today I am free to make the choice to use or not to use. When I first made the choice to try drugs I was not practicing free will I was simply making a bad choice with dire consequences. I was a fool and I was also fooled into believing that I had some kind of control over the out come of my actions. I know some of you want to point out that free will is the ability to make a choice. God wills things into being and they begin. Is this the power God has granted to man? Will defined in the dictionary is determination. Can man determine the outcome of a human action? I know that in my Christian life my path is set before me by God. It's a path I try my best to follow, but sometimes I veer to the left or to the right before He corrects me. I am determined to follow that path, but still. Well you know. I find I need help from outside myself. So God sets my path and then He aids me to stay on it. Does this sound like my will or Gods will. Well I could choose not to do it. In fact I have obviously made that choice in the past. I learned that by making bad choices I ended up following a different path. Was this path of my own creation because of practising my God granted power of free will? I thought so. Until I tried to practice my free will to quit drugs. I found that I had indeed fallen into a trap. Even before the drugs my worldly views led me into other traps. I believed money could solve my problems, but when I began to make a lot of money I found I had more problems. Which eventually led to a new drug problem and so on. So by denying God and practicing my free will I was falling into traps. But, who set the traps? I had believed lies that led me into traps. Satan is the author of lies and deception. By believing these lies and deceptions was I following my will or satans will? Ask any drug addict if he or she believes in God, some will some won't. Ask any addict if he believes in satan. He will answer yes. It's because using drugs is dabbling in the occult. Therefore drug use is satans tool. It is the reason an addict can't successfully quit on his own. He is doing satans will and is therefore controlled. Sometimes satan will allow a person to swap addictions as long as he can keep them fooled. These people will stop using only to become workaholics or alcoholics or what ever, but the one constant in it is that that person will be controlled by him. All in all I don't see where a person is practising anything close to free will. When Eve ate from the tree of knowledge was she practicing free will or was she fooled into doing someone else's will? Saying that someone is practising free will is not saying they have the ability to make a choice. It is saying that they have the ability to direct the outcome of the choices they make. If you believe you have this ability then tell me the day you will physically die. Free will is something I have determined satan uses to keep people fooled and also to make them feel guilty and unworthy. God never makes us feel guilty or unworthy. God convicts us of our sins and then forgives us all the while telling us how worthy and important you truly are. Although guilt and conviction might seem like the same thing they are not. One is used put down and degrade while the other is used to teach correct and edify. In fact they are exact opposites. Saying free will is the same as making a choice is much like guilt and conviction. If you still don't see the difference then the next time you have diarrea, use your will to make it go away. God gave man the ability to make choices not the ability to create or own destiny by the power of our will. We can choose to follow Gods will are we can reject it. When we reject Gods will we don't live by our own terms we then live by the devil's will. Maybe this is of no importance, but I think it is and I would sure like to hear your thoughts.                        Thank You                  Alta

I understand completely. We have a choice to follow satan or God. Good or evil. But there is no middle ground. ” I did it my way is a big lie,” 'you have no way'!
We have the free will to make the decision. We did nothing we “FOLLOW” we don't lead!!

Good Post!

[kenrch]

I thought of these scriptures. I think they explain the way it is.

Jam 4:13 Come now, ye that say, To-day or to-morrow we will go into this city, and spend a year there, and trade, and get gain:
Jam 4:14 whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. What is your life? For ye are a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
Jam 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall both live, and do this or that.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Free will exist. When we are beleivers our free will is usually intertwined with God's will. But when we aren't beleivers we do our will. Both ways Glorify God, and although things are predestined, how we get there are up to us. God promised the Isrealites the Promised Land which was a short distance and instead of doing it God's way and making it a short trip, they did it their way and it took them 40 years. Yet it was still predestined to be entered, it just took 40 years. I see free will as the choice to choose which path we take, His path will get us there sooner then ours, but his predestined will is we get there.
If we had no free will choices then salvation would not be so sweet. How can we confess Jesus is Lord and Saviour if it isn't our choice. That is also why the punishment fits the crime. We choose to deny him, we choose everlasting seperation from God. But we can't make those choices without God. We are nothing without him. Any choice you make Glorifies God.

[Proclaimer]

Amen to that.

We ultimately have 2 choices and God has predestined both to allow for free will.

light – darkness
love – hate
life – death
wisdom- folly
giving – stealing
truth – lies
glory – perish

All have a destination, but notice that there are really 2 destinations.

Also a child may ask “Can we go to the playground” and his Father might say “yes we can”. But once the clild is at the playground, the Father doesn't really expect the child to say “can I play on the slide”, now can I play on the swing”.

The point here is that we ask God for certain things and when he gives it to us, we are allowed to choose after that, what we do when we are there.

Yes we truly have free will and God has paved a destination for all choices.

[Alta]

The reason I made this post was to try to show that there is a difference between simply making a choice and exercising free will.
Remember will defined is self determination. Yes we can choose to follow God or reject Him, but that's it. Choosing God will have you doing Gods will, rejecting God will have you doing the devils will. The idea of your own will is not biblical it is an illusion not created by God. Next time I will post the scriptures. Thank you so much for your replies May God grant you peace.

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Which yes your will if not God's will would be that of the Devils. His will is you be totally unholy, God's will is for you to be totally holy. Your will is more like the choices you make in life. You have free choices as in what you will wear, what you will eat, etc. These choices at times reflect not God's will nor the devil's choice(notice i say at times, a mini skirt where you can almost see everything obviously is not God's choice).

How you go about life is full of choices. All of Which fall under God's will. There are three choices, yours, Satan's, or God's. Sometimes your choice is Satan's choice, sometimes its God's choice, and sometimes it is neither. If you dress modestly and appropiate then the color should not matter. If its green and not blue, God isn't gonna condemn you for that choice. To follow Jesus is a choice not a will. If it was God's will for us to follow Christ then we all would be following Jesus. But we are all following him. God wants us to follow Jesus and make the right choices in our life, but we don't always. Sometimes we do the will of the father of this world(Satan), and not God.

We still choose to sin, and choose to obey(not sin). One is the will of Satan(sin) and the other is the will of God(to not sin).

Gods will is for us to be with him, if we are willing to accept the gift, so he made a way(Jesus Christ). From life to birth our choices determine whos will is dominate in our life. God's or Satan's. God's will is for us to be with him, our choice to accept Christ. Satan's will is for us to be seperate from God, our choice to keep sinning and deny Christ. In the end its still our choice. Thats why God is just in Eternal damnation, many will choose to deny God. So he denies them eternally being in His presence. He doesn't force eternal seperation onto us. Matter of Fact he wants us to be with him eternally(John 3:16).

[Proclaimer]

Amen OneoftheLordsGenerals.

[Alta]

Here are a few scriptures to consider regarding free will

“He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” — Ephesians 1:4-5

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation.” — 2 Thessalonians 2:13

Or is it because we practice our free will and make good choices??

Romans 9:11-22

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”[a] 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[c] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[d] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction

I sure appreciate hearing your thoughts and comments and I am so grateful for the patients of God.
May God bless you

[OneoftheLordsGenerals]

Again you are looking way to much into this Alta. God forordained us, chose us into salvation not because he forced us to, but because he knew we would accept the gospel message. So he chose to see us covered by Jesus' blood before we were even acceptant of the Gospel message. He knows all that has and will happen. He sees it all at once.

How God be a God of love and true compassion and mercy if he condemns us without us making the choice to accept or deny Jesus. Some say that is the only choice but i beg to differ. Jesus himself even said Let your will be done not mine. So how can Jesus accept or deny himself. I am not denying these verses, i am saying that God lets us make choices. In which no matter what choice we make, it glorifies him. Whether it be sin, from which we learn he is right and glorify him, or from doing what is right, which glorifies him.

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