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Hi Seekingtruth
It would depend on whether they were aware of what they had done to you,
if they havn't asked for forgiveness or said sorry, they may not be.
I posted 5 steps to forgiveness on Wolves/Sheep thread., so won't type it again but what you are saying sounds like step 1.. “the fact that you are still angry and bitter is the result of your choice”.
It's more often us than the other person, because we have the stirring of something not right so we have the choice to give it to God or suffer the conciquences, a bitter root takes hold and poisons us, forgiving is the only solution, even if those that hurt or dissapoint us arn't sorry, if we don't forgive we are in bondage to satan and his demons will have a field day with us.
You mentioned” you are one who has been forgiven much”. If we only realized the things God has forgiven us for that we were never even aware of, it makes me shudder,that's when I feel like a dirty rag as spoken of in scripture somewhere.
Praise God for His Forgiveness.Is repentance a prerequisite for forgiveness?
Surely it is for God.Is it the same for us?
What about this verse?
It seems to say that repentance must be present.Luke 17:3-5
3 So watch yourselves.
“If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
4 If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him.”Apart from repentance, the only other reason for forgiveness is ignorance. When men do not know that they have sinned, God can forgive them. Maybe we should do the same.
Luke 23:34
Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”But it seems that forgiveness is not given to the unrepentant.
People hurt you all the time and not even know it and I'm sure I sin at times without knowing it, perhaps that is the difference, if you notify someone of a transgression and they fail to repent then you may continue in unforgiveness…
This is definitely a paradigm shift for me.
Question then, should I always rebuke a brother even for minor transgressions? or only if I find myself unable to overlook it? If you fail to rebuke for the minor are you just encouraging greater transgressions (my life experience would say yes)?
Another question along the same line, I've always been quick to say I was sorry even if I didn't feel I had done something wrong (if nothing else I was sorry the person was upset) but in doing so, have I been “failing to rebuke” where it might have been needed? Or worse yet, am I compromising the truth by not defending myself? My problem with that is the whole Nick and H fiasco (sorry guys) in adm feedback, was the body as a whole built up with that exchange or tore down?
This concept definitely seems to be complicated, my old way (forgive everything) was much simpler, but truth is truth.
Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 23 2006,13:02) People hurt you all the time and not even know it and I'm sure I sin at times without knowing it, perhaps that is the difference, if you notify someone of a transgression and they fail to repent then you may continue in unforgiveness… This is definitely a paradigm shift for me.
Question then, should I always rebuke a brother even for minor transgressions? or only if I find myself unable to overlook it? If you fail to rebuke for the minor are you just encouraging greater transgressions (my life experience would say yes)?
Another question along the same line, I've always been quick to say I was sorry even if I didn't feel I had done something wrong (if nothing else I was sorry the person was upset) but in doing so, have I been “failing to rebuke” where it might have been needed? Or worse yet, am I compromising the truth by not defending myself? My problem with that is whole Nick and H fiasco (sorry guys) in adm feedback, was the body as a whole built up with that exchange or tore down?
This concept definitely seems to be complicated, my old way (forgive everything) was much simpler, but truth is truth..
Hi Seekingtruth
It's not good to continue in unforgiveness.I find it works better to not let things pass without some sort of discussion about the problem you may be having with someone, very often small nigling things turn into monsters overnight if not nipped in the bud before they do.
I agree we should address issues asap
I've been praying and thinking about it since I wrote the above. I still wonder as it just seems wrong to not forgive someone (but is it my resistence to a change in my belief boundry or is it the Lord).
As I've said before, I always just turn it over to God for justice knowing that I could be the one who was wrong (it seems quite often we are blind to our own faults or mis-conceptions). The way I looked at it, God, who knows everything can be sure of His position, while I, who knows in part, cannot be sure something wasn't at least partially my fault.
Even if something was totally someone elses wrong, what good does my not forgiving them do, unlike God who is responsible for justice, it seems my position should be to hand it over to the One that truely knows where the problem lies and Who's in a position to punish offenders (if there is no repentence).
I guess I have not made that paradigm shift yet and still need more prayer and study before I can accept that it is right to do so.
open for further input and in need of your prayers
I know it would be wrong to bear a grudge.
But just to be clear I do believe that unrepentance is a cause for taking increasing measures of confrontation ending with discontinued fellowship (and that done with the hope of repentance).
So…if I do not seek revenge or harbor ill, and I have discontinued fellowship both as a warning to the individual and to limit the spread of unrepentance. Is that how God expects us to solve our differences while encouraging repentance.
Of course the larger problem is when neither side can accept that they could be wrong, does the body as a whole make a call? what if the body is divided on the issue? does leadership make a call? what if their divided? but by this point one would have to believe we've lost our focus on Jesus, or is Jesus divided?
Of course not.
Hi,
God understands our blindness
Ps 19″1The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.”
Hi All:
In order to look at the issue of forgiveness, we have to deal with it from the stand point of those who are in the flesh and those who supposedly are our brothers and sisters in Christ.
Our instruction from the Lord relative to those who are in the flesh is: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you”. (Matt. 5:44) Some of these will be the members of our own household. (Matt. 10:36)
Our hope in treating them this way is that their conscience will bother them, and they will realize that they are wrong in the way that treat us, and that they will turn to God asking for forgiveness. It is of these that the Lord would say, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. (Luke 23:34) It is of these that Stephen when he was stoned to death would say, “Lord lay not this sin to their charge”. (Acts 7:60) Some of these were those who had crucifed the Lord Jesus, and when they realized that they had done ask the apostle Peter what they should do. (Acts 2:37-38)
Of those who profess to be our brothers and sisters in Christ, we are to rebuke them if they sin against us, and if they repent, we are to forgive them. If they don't repent, we are to take two or three with us to witness that we are giving them an opportunity to repent, if they do not repent, we are to tell the church. If they do not repent, then we are any fellowship with that person. (Matt. 18:15-17) If they do not repent after you have gone through this procedure, this is what is meant by retaining someones sins. (John 20:23, Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18:18-20) Esentially, they are excommunicated. It is the church that made the decision to retain their sins because they would not repent when the matter was brought before them.
Of course, if they come to their senses, and repent, we are to forgive them, and retaining their sin does not mean that I bear a grudge. When I have done all that I can do to reconcile our differences, my conscience is clear. The matter is in the Lord's hands.
Hi,
This is the biggest deal with regard to salvation but also maintaining a good relationship with our Father.
We are told by Jesus to pray for forgiveness–but according to how much we forgive.
If we do not forgive we shoot ourselves in the foot.Hi,
The forgiveness of God is what the gospel is all about . All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and all need to be forgiven and reborn from above by the Spirit of God. No man should still have to carry the burden of his sin anymore.Hi,
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.Jesus first and most important ministry was to deal with sin
Mk2
5When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.Hi,
Jesus used the symbol of washing for forgiveness.
Jn 13
5After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.6Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
Hi,
The plan of God is to unite all with Him in His Son, enlivened by His Spirit.
That plan cannot proceed while we are still encumbered by Sin.
We must be taken out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.
We must be taken out of the darkness into His glorious light.So sin must be dealt with so that our vessels are made fit to contain that glorious and powerful Spirit .
We must be washed on the inside by the blood, obtained in faith by repentance and baptism.
Then God promises to give us of His Spirit
so we are reborn from above.Hi,
Love forgives and life gives us reasons to have to do this every day.
It is the most important habit to grasp.
Mt 6
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.Conviction is an ongoing war; everyone who sins is involved. Those without mercy and without understanding are always the first ones to accuse and they never cease to bring charges on others because they don’t know the true meaning of FORGIVENESS. They stand beside the ‘accuser of our brothers’ with the label of ‘hypocrite’ on their foreheads, for, what sinner has any right to condemn another sinner? Hypocrisy empties the worth of honesty in everyone’s hearts. I look at people and I see what they do; they are just like me but no one would admit it. Heaven and hell reside in every man and good and evil stirs him to do things he never expected, things he never wanted. Yet no one seems to truly understand this. I’ve learned in life that only Love can provide atonement for man; love that would understand him and protect him from persecution and judgment; love that will be patient with him in hopes that one day he may turn from his wrongdoing; love that will justify his mistakes and remember no more of his wrongs; and love that will teach him to love his neighbor the same way he has been loved.
Now, not only do I know why Christ said, “Father, FORGIVE them for they know not what they do…” I also understand why.
When the Holy Spirit counseled me on learning to truly FORGIVE from the heart, I learned to let go of my past pains and suffering. But when hurtful memories came back, I couldn't help but to feel resentul, frustrated and angry again. So I asked God to help me on how to FORGIVE my enemies so that I don't end up with returning animosites haunting me all over again, especially when I thought I had forgave those who hurt me. God then took me deeper into the meaning of FORGIVENESS. He showed me that I had to first bind up my past pains and suffering before blocking them out of my heart and mind; for, if I don't bind them up, they will always chase me, like beasts hidden in the shadow of my life ready to attack me again when I'm not aware of it. Painful memories without closure is a persecution waiting for its opportune moment to overtake me. So I asked God, how am I able to bind them up? He reminded me that knowledge atones the sins of men and with it, I am able to bind up hurtful memories and satisfy it with justice. Wherefore, when I felt my past suffering all over again, I asked God to help me understand why that person hurt me. He gave me knowledge and told me that the people who hurt me in my life were themselves, a victim at one point in their own lives; and when people are victimized, they learn to victimize others. I then understood why the people did what they did; it's because they didn't know what else to do but to do what they were taught. And they didn't have anyone to show them a better way to overcome or to guide them in the right direction, so they didn't know any better but to do what was done to them as they sulked in their own misery. With that, I felt at peace and now I truly understand, not just know but truly understand, that the reason why people hurt one another is because they really don't know any better; and that's why God basically summed up his atonement for man's sin in one simple statement, “..they know not what they do.” People don't know why they choose to do evil or why they entertain themselves with it; many people don't understand why they enjoy and love hurting one another. If everyone knew the Truth about who and what they are, I believe, they would not be doing what is hurtful to each other anymore. When God justified every man's sins done against me with his Knowledge (one of the fruits of love), I was at peace and I understood what he meant when he said, the pains and suffering had to be first bound in order to be thrown away. After that, I was able to cast out of my heart and mind, all of what was bound, never to be remembered again.
Though I struggle with my faith in God, I believe what he says is true… that ‘Love is without judgment’. I want to be free and I am no longer willing to be content with the distance between the Lord and me. If today, I am given a choice to choose the outcome of my fate… if today I am given the right to decide what I am to be… then let my choice be known not just to God, but also to the world… even though I may again be persecuted and mistreated because of my deep yearning for God, this time I will not be ashamed, for there is nothing that keeps me warmer and more alive other than his unfailing Love. I place my lot in God and through his goodness I hope to FORGIVE and learn to flawlessly love my neighbor as myself. In the Lord’s name I pray, Amen.
Hi,
Jesus washes the dust off our feet each day.
Sin clings to us so readilyHeb12
1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.We must do the same for our brothers
Hi,
Mt18
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Surely Jesus is speaking of those who are forgiven by God and thus saved. Their punishment seems to be temporary [till the last penny is paid] and thus does not include loss of salvation. It seems to me that such punishment is suffering we earn by unforgiveness on earth before we die.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 25 2008,08:56) Hi,
Mt18
21Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?22Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Surely Jesus is speaking of those who are forgiven by God and thus saved. Their punishment seems to be temporary [till the last penny is paid] and thus does not include loss of salvation. It seems to me that such punishment is suffering we earn by unforgiveness on earth before we die.
Hi Nick:There is forgiveness at any time if someone repents.
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