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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 03 2009,17:06) Hi BD,
Those islamic glasses are like looking though the ends of milk bottles.
No wonder you can't see much.
It seems you don't like the scriptures when ther are made clear for you. Yet, your not really explaining an alternate view. Maybe you should pray about it.Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 03 2009,17:04) Quote (Country boy @ Aug. 03 2009,14:19) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 03 2009,14:15) Quote (Country boy @ Aug. 03 2009,14:09) So Hezekiah was “Almighty God?” Seriously?
CB,Hezekiah means “Mighty God” why did you ask if it means Almighty GOD?
To understand Isaiah 9:6 you need to know the scriptures and who they speak of and when. Relating Jesus to everything you agree with, is not a spiritualy acceptable method.
Hezekiah means “God gives strength”More specifically, “Yahweh strengthens”
So my previous question remains unanswered.
Hezekiah (or Ezekias) (Hebrew: חִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Ḥizqiyyāhu, Khizkiyahu; or יְחִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Yəḥizqiyyāhu, Y'khizkiyahu; “YHWH Mighty God, or The Might of God”; compare Ezekiel) was the 13th king of the Kingdom of Judah.You just want to believe what you see, instead of what is actually before you. Jesus was never called Mighty God but Hezekiah's name is that, Jesus was never called Prince of Peace, Hezekiah was. Why do you want to take away what God gave Hezekiah? Jesus doesn't need what belongs to Hezekiah to remain The Christ.
So now you are saying that Hezekiah was God?Country boy posted:
Quote Isaiah 9:6 reads: (NIV) “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
bodhitharta replied to Country boy:Quote Is that your proof? Where is one place of scripture is Jesus call prince of peace or everlasting Father? So Isaiah 9:6 is not Scripture?
thinker
Hi:
Quote Isa 9:6 For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 To the increase of the princely power, And of peace, there is no end, On the throne of David, and on his kingdom, To establish it, and to support it, In judgment and in righteousness, Henceforth, even unto the age, The zeal of Jehovah of Hosts doth this.
YLT
This says He (that is God) doth call his name, Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.
This is similar to:
Quote Hbr 1:8 and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign; Hbr 1:9 thou didst love righteousness, and didst hate lawlessness; because of this did He anoint thee — God, thy God — with oil of gladness above thy partners;'
And again, Jesus is God in that he is the express image of God's person. Through the works of obedience that he did to God one has seen the attributes of God manifiest through the life that he lived and lives.
Also, the following scriptures may help to understand this:
Quote Isa 11:1 And a rod hath come out from the stock of Jesse, And a branch from his roots is fruitful. Isa 11:2 Rested on him hath the Spirit of Jehovah, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and might, The spirit of knowledge and fear of Jehovah.
Isa 11:3 To refresh him in the fear of Jehovah, And by the sight of his eyes he judgeth not, Nor by the hearing of his ears decideth.
Isa 11:4 And he hath judged in righteousness the poor, And decided in uprightness for the humble of earth, And hath smitten earth with the rod of his mouth, And with the breath of his lips he putteth the wicked to death.
Isa 11:5 And righteousness hath been the girdle of his loins, And faithfulness — the girdle of his reins
YLT
Love in Christ,
Martylashortened from (0352)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
'elTWOT – 93a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
ale Noun Masculine
Definition1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, powerKing James Word Usage – Total: 245
God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1, Immanuel + (06005) 2, might 1, strong 1Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
============================================A HUMAN being, given all power and authority by the ONE True God the Father, is called a wonderful counsellor and a mighty God (el). He is called such things, not because he is the One and Only true God or is 1/3 part of the Only One True God, but because he was a HUMAN BEING MADE such through the will and plan of the One and Only True God, the Father who's name is YHWH.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
Ephesians 1:18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Jesus is not the One True God, he is a human being MADE by the One True God, to be the mighty leader for all of mankind.
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
For all the kings and and the kingdoms that has ever existed on earth not one was worthy of obtaining an eternal position. All have been worthy of destruction. We are told clearly from the bible however that YHWH our Heavenly Father WOULD raise up for us a HUMAN King that would become worthy of being an eternal King. This was promised long ago to David, that by his SEED, DNA containing David's genes, an eternal king would be produced. Jesus was that MAN who grew in all grace and knowledge under the teachings of the One and Only True God, YHWH. Jesus was PERFECTED through suffering and was found WORTHY to sit at God's right hand and be that eternal King of whom YHWH promised.
Jesus was NOT the One True God, he was brought into perfection and thus is the expressed image of God, an image WE ALL must become in order to dwell eternally with the Heavenly Father. As Jesus was perfected BY the One true God and NOT by himself, we too will reach that HUMAN perfection. For our Heavenly Father is not a failure, and our wills are not stronger then His. If YHWH can bring righteousness into the heart and mind of one man, then He can do it with ALL men, this is precisely WHY Jesus was able to PAY for all people's sins. Jesus represents what God can do with ALL men and woman. People will be raised from the dead so that God and His Spirit can lead men into the same faith and good works as Jesus. Our God is a consuming fire, and He will refine each and every man, putting some through fiery punishments if need be, to bring everyone into repentance, faith and eternal life.
Isa 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
My understanding from scripture is that Jesus is not the One True God, he is a human being who was made into a perfect human being through the work of the One True God. God has been using Christ to call certain people to be Sons of God and leaders with Christ when he returns to earth. Christ and the Sons of God will be God's leaders on earth who bring the rest of creation into repentance, faith and etern
al life, so that eventually God will be all IN ALL!Hi Jodi,
So the Spirit of God in Christ and his followers gives them the good fruit of God's nature.
God will thus be all in all if men will obey Jesus and submit to rebirth from aboveQuote (Jodi Lee @ Aug. 04 2009,09:43) lashortened from (0352)
Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
'elTWOT – 93a
Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
ale Noun Masculine
Definition1. god, god-like one, mighty one
1. mighty men, men of rank, mighty heroes
2. angels
3. god, false god, (demons, imaginations)
4. God, the one true God, Jehovah
2. mighty things in nature
3. strength, powerKing James Word Usage – Total: 245
God 213, god 16, power 4, mighty 5, goodly 1, great 1, idols 1, Immanuel + (06005) 2, might 1, strong 1Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
============================================A HUMAN being, given all power and authority by the ONE True God the Father, is called a wonderful counsellor and a mighty God (el). He is called such things, not because he is the One and Only true God or is 1/3 part of the Only One True God, but because he was a HUMAN BEING MADE such through the will and plan of the One and Only True God, the Father who's name is YHWH.
1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 5:8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered. 9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,
John 5:19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
Ephesians 1:18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. 22 And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Jesus is not the One True God, he is a human being MADE by the One True God, to be the mighty leader for all of mankind.
Matthew 6:9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
For all the kings and and the kingdoms that has ever existed on earth not one was worthy of obtaining an eternal position. All have been worthy of destruction. We are told clearly from the bible however that YHWH our Heavenly Father WOULD raise up for us a HUMAN King that would become worthy of being an eternal King. This was promised long ago to David, that by his SEED, DNA containing David's genes, an eternal king would be produced. Jesus was that MAN who grew in all grace and knowledge under the teachings of the One and Only True God, YHWH. Jesus was PERFECTED through suffering and was found WORTHY to sit at God's right hand and be that eternal King of whom YHWH promised.
Jesus was NOT the One True God, he was brought into perfection and thus is the expressed image of God, an image WE ALL must become in order to dwell eternally with the Heavenly Father. As Jesus was perfected BY the One true God and NOT by himself, we too will reach that HUMAN perfection. For our Heavenly Father is not a failure, and our wills are not stronger then His. If YHWH can bring righteousness into the heart and mind of one man, then He can do it with ALL men, this is precisely WHY Jesus was able to PAY for all people's sins. Jesus represents what God can do with ALL men and woman. People will be raised from the dead so that God and His Spirit can lead men into the same faith and good works as Jesus. Our God is a consuming fire, and He will refine each and every man, putting some through fiery punishments if need be, to bring everyone into repentance, faith and eternal life.
Isa 55:9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Romans 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. 18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
My understanding from scripture is that Jesus is not the One True God, he is a human being who was made into a perfect human being through the work of the One True God. God has been using Chr
ist to call certain people to be Sons of God and leaders with Christ when he returns to earth. Christ and the Sons of God will be God's leaders on earth who bring the rest of creation into repentance, faith and eternal life, so that eventually God will be all IN ALL!There goes Jodi Lee with her dissertations again.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 04 2009,09:48) Hi Jodi,
So the Spirit of God in Christ and his followers gives them the good fruit of God's nature.
God will thus be all in all if men will obey Jesus and submit to rebirth from above
Isaac was born according to the Spirit from his physical birth. Men cannot “choose” to be born of the Spirit. Jesus said that it just happens.thinker
Quote (Country boy @ Aug. 04 2009,04:46) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 03 2009,17:04) Quote (Country boy @ Aug. 03 2009,14:19) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 03 2009,14:15) Quote (Country boy @ Aug. 03 2009,14:09) So Hezekiah was “Almighty God?” Seriously?
CB,Hezekiah means “Mighty God” why did you ask if it means Almighty GOD?
To understand Isaiah 9:6 you need to know the scriptures and who they speak of and when. Relating Jesus to everything you agree with, is not a spiritualy acceptable method.
Hezekiah means “God gives strength”More specifically, “Yahweh strengthens”
So my previous question remains unanswered.
Hezekiah (or Ezekias) (Hebrew: חִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Ḥizqiyyāhu, Khizkiyahu; or יְחִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Yəḥizqiyyāhu, Y'khizkiyahu; “YHWH Mighty God, or The Might of God”; compare Ezekiel) was the 13th king of the Kingdom of Judah.You just want to believe what you see, instead of what is actually before you. Jesus was never called Mighty God but Hezekiah's name is that, Jesus was never called Prince of Peace, Hezekiah was. Why do you want to take away what God gave Hezekiah? Jesus doesn't need what belongs to Hezekiah to remain The Christ.
So now you are saying that Hezekiah was God?
CB,You simply are not understanding the way Jewish culture named their Children, “Mighty God” would not mean that the person was God, but that God was Mighty with them. The name John means Gracious God or God is gracious but we don't think John is calling himself God, as it is with the name Jesus or Yeshuah it means the salvation of God it doesn't mean Jesus is God it means God Saves just like the name Joshua. If you study the bible without the assumptions given to you by others you will be more knowledgeable and get to know the Character of God. Right now your just like a parrot who takes the word of whoever and assume it is correct.
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,05:15) Country boy posted: Quote Isaiah 9:6 reads: (NIV) “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
bodhitharta replied to Country boy:Quote Is that your proof? Where is one place of scripture is Jesus call prince of peace or everlasting Father? So Isaiah 9:6 is not Scripture?
thinker
Where is “Jesus” mentioned in Isaiah 9:6?1The Visions of Isaiah son of Amoz, that he hath seen concerning Judah and Jerusalem, in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
Doesn't this say that the visions are concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of the kings of Judah? Where is Jesus mentioned?
Jesus is in-fact a King of Judah but that prophecy in 9:6 doesn't apply
bodhitharta said to Country boy:
Quote as it is with the name Jesus or Yeshuah it means the salvation of God it doesn't mean Jesus is God it means God Saves just like the name Joshua.
bd,
I love it when anti-trinitarians bring up Joshua because it gives me the chance to blow away their theories. Jesus is presented as being superior to Joshua because He accomplished what Joshua could not.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8) The contrast between Jesus and Joshua is clear. Jesus did what Joshua could not do. Therefore, the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly describes the person of Jesus.. It's back to the drawing board for you.
thinker
Hi TT,
THEREFORE your reliance on your own unique and weak logic again exposes your separation from even fellow trinitarians.Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,20:19) bodhitharta said to Country boy: Quote as it is with the name Jesus or Yeshuah it means the salvation of God it doesn't mean Jesus is God it means God Saves just like the name Joshua.
bd,
I love it when anti-trinitarians bring up Joshua because it gives me the chance to blow away their theories. Jesus is presented as being superior to Joshua because He accomplished what Joshua could not.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8) The contrast between Jesus and Joshua is clear. Jesus did what Joshua could not do. Therefore, the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly describes the person of Jesus.. It's back to the drawing board for you.
thinker
The contrast between Joshua and Jesus is not as clear as you would like to believe. Joshua did save those people and brought them into the promised land and those who follow Jesus he will bring those people in the promised land(eternal life) so how are they different?The same people who would follow Jesus are the same people who who followed Joshua in obedience, therefor whether it be Joshua or Jesus, Allah i.e. “The God” saves.
Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 05 2009,05:13) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,20:19) bodhitharta said to Country boy: Quote as it is with the name Jesus or Yeshuah it means the salvation of God it doesn't mean Jesus is God it means God Saves just like the name Joshua.
bd,
I love it when anti-trinitarians bring up Joshua because it gives me the chance to blow away their theories. Jesus is presented as being superior to Joshua because He accomplished what Joshua could not.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8) The contrast between Jesus and Joshua is clear. Jesus did what Joshua could not do. Therefore, the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly describes the person of Jesus.. It's back to the drawing board for you.
thinker
The contrast between Joshua and Jesus is not as clear as you would like to believe. Joshua did save those people and brought them into the promised land and those who follow Jesus he will bring those people in the promised land(eternal life) so how are they different?The same people who would follow Jesus are the same people who who followed Joshua in obedience, therefor whether it be Joshua or Jesus, Allah i.e. “The God” saves.
bd,
Joshua did not give them the rest that was intended in the original promise. They did NOT enter into God's rest (Psalm 95:11). Hebrews 4:8 clearly says that Joshua could not give them God's rest.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
At the time Hebrews was written it says that there “remains a rest for the people of God.” You need to get out of the old testament. Jesus did what Joshua could not do and therefore the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly belongs to Jesus,Quote For you shall call His name Jehovah saves for He shall save His people from their sins The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus' superiority over the angels and the old testament prophets. Joshua was just a foreshadow of the real Joshua.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 06 2009,09:54) Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 05 2009,05:13) Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 04 2009,20:19) bodhitharta said to Country boy: Quote as it is with the name Jesus or Yeshuah it means the salvation of God it doesn't mean Jesus is God it means God Saves just like the name Joshua.
bd,
I love it when anti-trinitarians bring up Joshua because it gives me the chance to blow away their theories. Jesus is presented as being superior to Joshua because He accomplished what Joshua could not.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:8) The contrast between Jesus and Joshua is clear. Jesus did what Joshua could not do. Therefore, the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly describes the person of Jesus.. It's back to the drawing board for you.
thinker
The contrast between Joshua and Jesus is not as clear as you would like to believe. Joshua did save those people and brought them into the promised land and those who follow Jesus he will bring those people in the promised land(eternal life) so how are they different?The same people who would follow Jesus are the same people who who followed Joshua in obedience, therefor whether it be Joshua or Jesus, Allah i.e. “The God” saves.
bd,
Jopshua did not give them the rest that was intended in the original promise. They did NOT enter into God's rest (Psalm 95:11). Hebrews 4:8 clearly says that Joshua could not give them God's rest.Quote For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
At the time Hebrews was written it says that there “remains a rest for the people of God.” You need to get out of the old testament. Jesus did what Joshua could not do and therefore the name “Jehovah saves” truly and properly belongs to Jesus,Quote For you shall call His name Jehovah saves for He shall save His people from their sins The book of Hebrews is all about Jesus' superiority over the angels and the old testament prophets. Joshua was just a foreshadow of the real Joshua.
thinker
So exactly how are you entered into “the rest”? Will it be after you die? You seem to not much different than any other believer except your belief is a little different.Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,04:13) Quote (Country boy @ July 28 2009,04:01) Isaiah 9:6 reads: (NIV) “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
It almost seems unfair to post this after antitrinitarians have already failed to refute the verses already shown to them. But we might as well let the evidence (or at this point, proof) pile up.
So who is this “child” spoken of in this verse? Is it not Jesus? If not, then who do you say he is? And if he is Jesus, how can you make the case that he is not God, when the verse clearly says that he will be called “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” (which, when translated literally, means “Father of eternity.”)
What argument will you use? Will you say that the verse only says he will “be called Mighty God” and that that doesn't necessarily mean that he IS God? The verse gives absolutely no indication that he will be called these things in error. Rather, it seems to be building up the image of this “child” by listing the titles that will be bestowed upon him. Surely the author intends to show the glory of this “child” rather than making him a fraud!
I eagerly await responses from my antitrinitarian friends.
CB,
The anti-trinitarians will tell you that Jesus is called the “mighty” God and not the “almighty” God. This of course makes them polytheists because polytheism teaches a hierarchy of gods. And they forget that Jehovah is often referred to simply as “mighty” God.thinker
If you think he is the Almighty Theos/Elohim, then he also has to be the Father, if you are to be consistent.But you need to dig deeper on this because Jesus is not the Father and he is not the Almighty God.
The Almighty God is actually the Father of Jesus as is plainly stated in scripture.
To explain this, you need to understand that Abraham is a father. So this is really saying that Jesus is the everlasting father which makes him greater than Abraham of course.
As far as mighty theos. Well many are called theos. Even Jesus said “you are theos” and “you are all sons of the Most High” and I suppose out of all who are called “theos” that Jesus is rightly called mighty.
If you do not accept this then feel free to believe that Jesus is God the Father. But I personally do not recommend that you do that.
Theos is not a term that is exclusive to the Almighty. That is why God is called the Most High Theos.
Quote (t8 @ Dec. 06 2009,16:44) Quote (thethinker @ July 28 2009,04:13) Quote (Country boy @ July 28 2009,04:01) Isaiah 9:6 reads: (NIV) “For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.”
It almost seems unfair to post this after antitrinitarians have already failed to refute the verses already shown to them. But we might as well let the evidence (or at this point, proof) pile up.
So who is this “child” spoken of in this verse? Is it not Jesus? If not, then who do you say he is? And if he is Jesus, how can you make the case that he is not God, when the verse clearly says that he will be called “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” (which, when translated literally, means “Father of eternity.”)
What argument will you use? Will you say that the verse only says he will “be called Mighty God” and that that doesn't necessarily mean that he IS God? The verse gives absolutely no indication that he will be called these things in error. Rather, it seems to be building up the image of this “child” by listing the titles that will be bestowed upon him. Surely the author intends to show the glory of this “child” rather than making him a fraud!
I eagerly await responses from my antitrinitarian friends.
CB,
The anti-trinitarians will tell you that Jesus is called the “mighty” God and not the “almighty” God. This of course makes them polytheists because polytheism teaches a hierarchy of gods. And they forget that Jehovah is often referred to simply as “mighty” God.thinker
If you think he is the Almighty Theos/Elohim, then he also has to be the Father, if you are to be consistent.But you need to dig deeper on this because Jesus is not the Father and he is not the Almighty God.
The Almighty God is actually the Father of Jesus as is plainly stated in scripture.
To explain this, you need to understand that Abraham is a father. So this is really saying that Jesus is the everlasting father which makes him greater than Abraham of course.
As far as mighty theos. Well many are called theos. Even Jesus said “you are theos” and “you are all sons of the Most High” and I suppose out of all who are called “theos” that Jesus is rightly called mighty.
If you do not accept this then feel free to believe that Jesus is God the Father. But I personally do not recommend that you do that.
Theos is not a term that is exclusive to the Almighty. That is why God is called the Most High Theos.
No really,Isaiah 9:6 is about Hezekiah
Hezekiah (or Ezekias) (Hebrew: חִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Ḥizqiyyāhu, Khizkiyahu; or יְחִזְקִיָּ֫הוּ Yəḥizqiyyāhu, Y'khizkiyahu) means “YHWH Mighty God, or The Might of God”(compare Ezekiel).
T8 I have already shown everyone here that Isaiah 9:6 is about Hezekiah, even Isaiah says:
Isaiah 1
1The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.Jesus was not in those days
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