For those of you who believe some will be on Earth

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ April 30 2011,04:50)

Pierre, I am speaking of believers, including Jesus, who are made the Sons of God by receiving the Spirit of sonship; just as scripture declares. Quote Romans 8:15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” Jesus was the first to receive the Spirit of sonship and God dwells in him through that spirit making him one with God in the spirit of righteousness.    Those that believe receive the Spirit of sonship through faith in Jesus and thus become members of the unity because they become one as Jesus is one with God.  That is all believers. Quote John 17 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. Note: All scriptures from c. 2011 NIV.

Kerwin

Christ is not mention as a believer ,he is the son of God there never was a question of his believe in his father,we have to believe in him who came down from heaven to make us known the father,

but all believers can be one ,but not for that reason be in heaven .it is one in spirit with God that make us all one.

Pierre

[Istari]

Kerwin and all,

Please do not include yourselves in the 'WE' nor the 'US' as described in the Scriptures…

Say instead 'They' and 'Them'.

For the 'they, them, we and us' of the Scriptures are the Apostles, Saints, Elders and such as are called by God through Jesus whose names have been written in the book of life from the beginning…

Including yourselves in that group is to possible place yourselves above your station: 'Lord, please grant it that 'i' should sit at your right or left hand side in your kingdom'?
And the Lord will say, 'I cannot grant it fir such is not mine to grant but that which my Father has written in his book from the beginning'

By all means aspire to life in Paradise Earth by living your life for God and his Christ by Faith or by Works or by Faith and Works.

[terraricca]

Quote (Istari @ April 30 2011,14:08)

Kerwin and all, Please do not include yourselves in the 'WE' nor the 'US' as described in the Scriptures… Say instead 'They' and 'Them'. For the 'they, them, we and us' of the Scriptures are the Apostles, Saints, Elders and such as are called by God through Jesus whose names have been written in the book of life from the beginning… Including yourselves in that group is to possible place yourselves above your station: 'Lord, please grant it that 'i' should sit at your right or left hand side in your kingdom'? And the Lord will say, 'I cannot grant it fir such is not mine to grant but that which my Father has written in his book from the beginning' By all means aspire to life in Paradise Earth by living your life for God and his Christ by Faith or by Works or by Faith and Works.

istari

this is a very good point ,many are called but few are elected.

Pierre

[Baker]

Quote (Istari @ April 30 2011,07:08)

Kerwin and all, Please do not include yourselves in the 'WE' nor the 'US' as described in the Scriptures… Say instead 'They' and 'Them'. For the 'they, them, we and us' of the Scriptures are the Apostles, Saints, Elders and such as are called by God through Jesus whose names have been written in the book of life from the beginning… Including yourselves in that group is to possible place yourselves above your station: 'Lord, please grant it that 'i' should sit at your right or left hand side in your kingdom'? And the Lord will say, 'I cannot grant it fir such is not mine to grant but that which my Father has written in his book from the beginning' By all means aspire to life in Paradise Earth by living your life for God and his Christ by Faith or by Works or by Faith and Works.

Hi Istari!  Yes Sir, I don't believe we even qualify for that office.  The Saints are those that lost there lives in the first three brutal and bloody centuries.  
Whether the multitude standing in front of Gods Throne worship Him day and night, I am not sure of.  Many think they go to Heaven, which is a myth.  The meek inherit the earth,,,,,

Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  

Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  

Rev 21:3   And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

Peace Irene

[karmarie]

JA/Istari (which one do you prefer?)

How do you know that the 144,000 aren't the ones who are given the Earth, and the rest aren't all in Heaven?

There is a multitude which no Man can count seen in Heaven.

*Rev 7:9(YLT)
After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands

Where is your proof (and Irenes and BC&JWs and Terraricas) that 144'000 are in Heaven and the rest are on Earth?

If you believe and teach something, can you back it up?

Thanks.

[karmarie]

The 144,000 are Jews (which is what it say's) and there is a multitude in Heaven (which no one was able to number (thats not 144'000) and these ones in Heaven are from every nation, and tribe, and people, and tongue (this is a different group), and they are standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, in Heaven.

The 144'000 are first mentioned in Revelation

And then they are seen standing on Mount Zion…

Revelation 14:1-5
 I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (Istari @ April 30 2011,07:08)

Kerwin and all, Please do not include yourselves in the 'WE' nor the 'US' as described in the Scriptures… Say instead 'They' and 'Them'. For the 'they, them, we and us' of the Scriptures are the Apostles, Saints, Elders and such as are called by God through Jesus whose names have been written in the book of life from the beginning… Including yourselves in that group is to possible place yourselves above your station: 'Lord, please grant it that 'i' should sit at your right or left hand side in your kingdom'? And the Lord will say, 'I cannot grant it fir such is not mine to grant but that which my Father has written in his book from the beginning' By all means aspire to life in Paradise Earth by living your life for God and his Christ by Faith or by Works or by Faith and Works.

Istari: Does what you say even remotely sound like the “good news” of the Kingdom of God which is for all and in all who will believe and accept. The words of God through Jesus, when accepted and believed become one with the person. The gospel is for “whosoever will believe”! All are chosen but not all believe.

We are the apostles(ones sent forth) the saints and the elders of today. Jesus said as I have sent them(to his apostles) so send I you.

There is no bloodline, no special race, no male or female, no Jew or Gentile no division at all. All are equal. All are called in one calling. Some will excel in certain areas of the body of Christ, but its the same calling from ONE lord, ONE God, ONE Spirit, ONE Christ!

If you accept life through Jesus from Gods words then you have life. Anyone and everyone. Whosoever believes!

If you accept sin/sickness/disease/ or any form of destruction then you have evil/destruction. Its the choice of each and every individual. You will live in what you believe from God.

True self abasement is saying I can do nothing apart from God. But with Gods words through Jesus I can do all things. In and of myself I am nothing. What I am, has been created by Gods words through Jesus. Now I am ONE with God/Jesus and the Spirit. So is every other person that believes God. IMO, TK

[kerwin]

Quote (terraricca @ April 30 2011,00:11)

Christ is not mention as a believer ,he is the son of God there never was a question of his believe in his father,we have to believe in him who came down from heaven to make us known the father, but all believers can be one ,but not for that reason be in heaven .it is one in spirit with God that make us all one. Pierre

Pierre,

Quote

Habakkuk 2:4 (New International Version, ©2011) 4 “See, the enemy is puffed up;   his desires are not upright—   but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness[a]— Footnotes: a.Habakkuk 2:4 Or faith

We know that scripture declares the righteous live by faith and we also know that Jesus did not sin even though he was tempted as is common to man.  Knowing to two things lets us know that Jesus was and still is a believer just as those that are being transformed into his likeness by the Spirit of God.

Quote

Isaiah 42 (New International Version, ©2011) The Servant of the LORD 1 “Here is my servant, whom I uphold,   my chosen one in whom I delight; I will put my Spirit on him,   and he will bring justice to the nations. Hebrews 11:6 (New International Version, ©2011) 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

We also know that Jesus pleased God for it was foretold that he would please God and scripture does not like when it states without faith it is impossible to please God.

I did not state in any way that Jesus had any doubt.  The evidence is overwhelming that his faith was always complete as he never sinned.

I agree that all believers will become one in spirit as God does as he promise.  He will therefore fill those that hunger and thirst for righteousness.   In other words he will set those in bondage to sin free from that bondage just as Jesus teaches us.

[Istari]

Guys,

All believe what you will here.

There are two resurrections:
The first will be for those whose names are written into the book of life. They will be in heaven with Christ as his brothers and as heirs, princes to God the father.
The second for those who do not attain to the first but are still believers who will be TESTED again under Satan's rulership.
Those that come out of that test will attain life on Paradise Earth.

[kerwin]

Quote (Istari @ April 30 2011,16:51)

Guys, All believe what you will here. There are two resurrections: The first will be for those whose names are written into the book of life. They will be in heaven with Christ as his brothers and as heirs, princes to God the father. The second for those who do not attain to the first but are still believers who will be TESTED again under Satan's rulership. Those that come out of that test will attain life on Paradise Earth.

That is strange as the promise is “blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth”.

There is no additional condition.

[karmarie]

JA, why be tested again? The judgment is final.

And if you believe in a thousand year millenium, what is the point in that? Only for satan to twice be let lose? It doesn't make sense to what scripture says. What about Matthew 25… And 2nd Peter 3?

*Edited, put wrong chapter.

[karmarie]

Rev 7:9
After these things I saw, and lo, a great multitude, which to number no one was able, out of all nations, and tribes, and peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne, and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands

Revelation 14:1-5
I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

The Multitude are in Heaven
144,000 are on Earth.

[karmarie]

And the 144'000 on earth are Jews.
The Gentiles are the great multitude in Heaven…(that's what it seems to me?)

[Tim Kraft]

There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond or free. Gal.3:28 All are one. There is no separation except faith and works of the law. No one is saved by works of the law. Salvation is by faith and it is for all that believe. The 144000 is mis-understood. Twelve thousand from each of twelve tribes. There are no “tribes” all is ONE. No exclusions of anyone that accepts by faith. IMO, TK

[terraricca]

Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 01 2011,06:59)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond or free. Gal.3:28  All are one. There is no separation except faith and works of the law. No one is saved by works of the law. Salvation is by faith and it is for all that believe. The 144000 is mis-understood. Twelve thousand from each of twelve tribes. There are no “tribes” all is ONE. No exclusions of anyone that accepts by faith. IMO, TK

TK

do not forget the spiritual Israel

Pierre

[Istari]

To all,

Revelation 20 speaks of the two resurrections.
Revelation 14:1-5 speaks of the 144,000.
Revelation 7 speaks of the 144,000.

Please notice that Revelation should not be read beginning to end directly but is split backwards and forwards across it's chapters with parts repeated in greater or lesser degrees.

Also, Revelations contains many many symbolisms as shown by Rev 19:8 where the Bride of Christ is arrayed in 'fine linen' – that 'fine linen' being not a physical material but 'The righteous acts of the Saints'!

And the WOMAN in Rev 12: who could she be but the Church of God?
The Sun is the glory of God, the Moon is the reflection of the glory of God – the Sun and the twelve stars are the Princes of God, of whom one third are swept away down to the earth by the Dragon's tail.

Notice that one third of TWELVE is FOUR.
Rev 9:14 speaks of FOUR Angels who were 'Bound at the great Euphrates ….prepared for the hour month and year to 'kill' a third of mankind'
These are four senior angels – not the ordinary demon army of Satan.

Again though, I ask, if Satan is just a simple created angel as all other angels – how could he command such 'respect' amongst the demon angels.

He can even fight with MICHAEL who is an ArchAngel and Captain of the Army horde of Angels of God… That Satan is one formidable dude – and there are those who say he doesn't exist or is or no consequence in the order of Angels relative to Jesus…

Think again my friends – please hold a respect for him – he is no simple Demon Angel!!

[Baker]

To All!  A lot was said in past posts.  The way I see it.  there are two chapters in the Book of Revelation
that speaks of the 144,000 chapter 7 and 14.
Rev 7:1 ¶ And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.  

After these things are referring to the seven trumets and the seven last plagues, because it says so, in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.”

What the angels were told to hold back for awhile was God's final destruction of this evil world.

Jer 25:32 ¶ Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.

Jer 25:33   And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.  

Rev 7:2   And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
Rev 7:3   Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  

Earth is a metaphor  for people. and sea is a metaphor for nations, by trees meant all vegetables.  For now the angels are told to wait.
Rev 7:4   And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.  As you can read in verses 5-8.
And in chapter 14 you can read

Rev 14:1 ¶ And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.  

The 144,000 in both chapters are the same since there is only one group of servants that was sealed.
    Wat does it mean having the Fathers name written in their forehead?  What is the Fathers name?

Psa 83:18   That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.  

Having the Fathers name has a physical and spiritual application.  The  physical application was the entire nation of Israel.

Jer 14:9   Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man [that] cannot save? yet thou, O LORD, [art] in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not.  

Jer 25:29   For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.  

There is so much more about the 144,000 but yiu get the picture.  Istari you got it right.

Who will be Spirit beings, it says in Rev.21 this

Rev 21:1 ¶ And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.  

Rev 21:2   And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.  

Rev 21:3   And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God.

When you read on it telkls you what the New Jerusalem will look like.

Mat 5:3   Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.  

The Kingdom of God is coming down from Heaven, not that tghey will go up to Heaven….

Mat 5:5   Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

the meek will inherit the earth, the New earth.  Will it be a refined earth, or a completely New Earth….

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.  

Mal 4:2   But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.  

Mal 4:3   And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.  

Since there will be no sea, I believe and it is IMO God will renew the Earth….because Malachi says that the Saints will walk on the ashes of the wicked…

 Mat 5:3   Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Peace Irene

[karmarie]

TK and Terrarica you are right as the bible says there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile).

But think; these 144'000 are sealed, it has to do with the tribulation, but doesn't nessesarilly seperate them in the end when the great crowd stand before the throne of God does it (?)

And Istari good post in regards to the chronological order of Rev and understanding of the symbolism. And Irene.

———————————

It seems the new Earth and Heaven are one. So there is no seperation between people at all. And if you believe in Amillenialism then there is no confusion about some thousand year reign nor the firstfruits or resurrection or coming judgment, nor Satan being let lose to decieve the nations.

Amillenialism is expalined here:

http://www.bereancouncil.org/index.php?showtopic=100

Please read it (The link doesn't seem to be working from here, but if you copy and paste it into the address bar it works).

———————————–

I'm, quoting another man here and scripture:

“Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more. “Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed. They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit. No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands. They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by Yahweh, they and their descendants with them. Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear. The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain,” says Yahweh (Isaiah 65:17-25).

Isaiah writes that ‘the new heavens and the new earth’ will be created when the Kingdom comes upon the earth. When there is no longer any curse. And when the creation has been restored.

“And I, because of their actions and their imaginations, am about to come and gather all nations and tongues, and they will come and see my glory. “I will set a sign among them, and I will send some of those who survive to the nations–to Tarshish, to the Libyans and Lydians (famous as archers), to Tubal and Greece, and to the distant islands that have not heard of my fame or seen my glory. They will proclaim my glory among the nations. And they will bring all your brothers, from all the nations, to my holy mountain in Jerusalem as an offering to Yahweh–on horses, in chariots and wagons, and on mules and camels,” says Yahweh. “They will bring them, as the Israelites bring their grain offerings, to the temple of Yahweh in ceremonially clean vessels. And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites,” says Yahweh. “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares Yahweh, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says Yahweh. “And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind” (Isaiah 66:18-24).

Here Isaiah describes ‘the new heavens and the new earth’ being created following the rebellion and the battle of Armageddon.

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness (2 Peter 3:10:13).

The Apostle Peter connects the ‘new heaven and a new earth’ with the coming ‘Day of the Lord’ and ‘the home of righteousness’  Therefore, when the day of the Lord comes the ‘new heavens and the new earth’ will be created.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”.

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever (Revelation 21:1 –22:5).

 Therefore,  the ‘new heaven and the new earth’ will come at Christ return and will reign on earth for ever and ever.

                                                                                                   Richard H Perry

[karmarie]

Ok Jay, i'll talk to you in private about this… (it's shamefull for a woman to chatter in an assembly)!!

[Tim Kraft]

Quote (terraricca @ May 01 2011,07:10)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ May 01 2011,06:59) There is neither Jew nor Greek, male nor female, bond or free. Gal.3:28  All are one. There is no separation except faith and works of the law. No one is saved by works of the law. Salvation is by faith and it is for all that believe. The 144000 is mis-understood. Twelve thousand from each of twelve tribes. There are no “tribes” all is ONE. No exclusions of anyone that accepts by faith. IMO, TK TK do not forget the spiritual Israel Pierre

Pierre: The fig tree represented Israel. Jesus cursed the fig tree and said, ….no one would ever eat the fruit of the fig tree again…! I believe his referrence was to Israel.

One of the great deceptions of religious doctrine is a physical bloodline of chosen people. There never was a chosen “bloodline” of people unto God. From the begining it has always been by “faith” man is connected to God. IMO, TK

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