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TT & WJ, doesn't a passage like Isaiah 53 clearly shows the difference between the Almighty God, YHWH and His Servant?
Quote Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,05:58) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 15 2010,13:49) igor said: Quote 1 John 5:20 (KJV) seems to be about context, he is revering back to John 4 and 5: WOW! SUPER LAME!
Igor skips back over several verses.
In verses 13-15 John said that he wrote his epistle in order that thye might believe in the name of the Son of God. he said that we show our confidence in the Son of God by praying to Him expecting that if we ask according to HIS will He will give us what we ask.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.
14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.John CLEARLY said that we show our confidence in the Son of God by praying to HIM according to HIS WILL and expecting that HE will give us what we ask.
Yet Igor wants us to go back to chapter 4 and skip these statements. Uh….Only God can answer our prayers. Ergo….
thinker
JackTrue.
The NET Bible which is a completely new translation of the Bible with 60,932 translators’ notes! It was completed by more than 25 scholars – experts in the original biblical languages – who worked directly from the best currently available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts states this concerning 1 John 5:20…
The pronoun This one (οὗτος, Joutos) refers to a person, but it is far from clear whether it should be understood as a reference (1) to God the Father or (2) to Jesus Christ. R. E. Brown (Epistles of John [AB], 625) comments, “I John, which began with an example of stunning grammatical obscurity in the prologue, continues to the end to offer us examples of unclear grammar.” The nearest previous antecedent is Jesus Christ, immediately preceding, but on some occasions when this has been true the pronoun still refers to God (see 1 John 2:3). The first predicate which follows This one in 5:20, the true God, is a description of God the Father used by Jesus in John 17:3, and was used in the preceding clause of the present verse to refer to God the Father (him who is true). Yet the second predicate of This one in 5:20, eternal life, appears to refer to Jesus, because although the Father possesses “life” (John 5:26, 6:57) just as Jesus does (John 1:4, 6:57, 1 John 5:11), “life” is never predicated of the Father elsewhere, while it is predicated of Jesus in John 11:25 and 14:6 (a self-predication by Jesus). If This one in 5:20 is understood as referring to Jesus, it forms an inclusion with the prologue, which introduced the reader to “the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us.” Thus it appears best to understand the pronoun This one in 5:20 as a reference to Jesus Christ. The christological affirmation which results is striking, but certainly not beyond the capabilities of the author (see John 1:1 and 20:28): This One [Jesus Christ] is the true God and eternal life.
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us insight to know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. “This one is the true God and eternal life“. 1 John 5:20
Blessings WJ
Keith,You are absolutely correct on 1 John 5:20. It says that “THIS ONE (Jesus Christ), is the true God and eternal life.” Verses 13-15 say that we are to pray in confidence toward the Son of God expecting that if we ask anything according to HIS will that HE will grant our petitions. Yet Igor wants us to skip right over these statements going back to chapter 4.
Well, I can play that game too. Let's skip all the way back to chapter 1 where Jesus is called “THAT ETERNAL LIFE.”
Then skip forward again to 5:20:
“THIS ONE (Jesus Christ)is the True God and ETERNAL LIFE.”
If Igor wants to skip back to previous chapters then let's go all the way back to the prologue of the epistle.
thinker
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:21) oww.. TT 
I was just showing that HOTHEOS isn't in all cases about the Almighty God, YHWH.
But what did the Father mean when He addressed His Son as “HOTHEOS” (Hebrews 1:8)?thinker
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,14:13) Well scripture says something different: Acts 3:13-14
The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.Johannes 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your GodJohn 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent
IgorNone of the scriptures you quote imply Jesus is less in ontology than the Father.
The scritpures you quote also were referring to Jesus before he had returned to his previous Glory with the Father (John 1:5) and before he was given back all authority and power that he emptied himself of before he came in the likeness of sinful flesh and was found in fashion as a man! Phil 2:6-8, 2 Cor 8:9, John 1:1-3, 14
In no way does any of the scriptures you quote “negate” the scriptures that call Jesus God!
Blessings WJ
Quote (katjo @ Feb. 16 2010,06:29) ED, The “Right Hand” is only figurative/symbolic and not literal.
Right hand means power and authority. The term “right hand” is not referring to position or location but the power When Jesus became our final sacrifice, He at the same time being the high priest, forever sat down as God ending all sacrifices. Jesus Christ is at the same time both our sacrifice and our priest. Jesus is Our creator and every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord .
There is Only ONe Lord!! can you call Jesus Lord?katjo
Kat,Exactly brother! At the right hand of God Jesus has EQUAL power and authority. Paul said that the Son “will be” subject to the Father. If Jesus was subject to the Father when Paul wrote this then the “will be” (future) makes no sense.
thinker
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
igor.Did you miss my post above yours? I duplicate it below:
Keith,
You are absolutely correct on 1 John 5:20. It says that “THIS ONE (Jesus Christ), is the true God and eternal life.” Verses 13-15 say that we are to pray in confidence toward the Son of God expecting that if we ask anything according to HIS will that HE will grant our petitions. Yet Igor wants us to skip right over these statements going back to chapter 4.
Well, I can play that game too. Let's skip all the way back to chapter 1 where Jesus is called “THAT ETERNAL LIFE.”
Then skip forward again to 5:20:
“THIS ONE (Jesus Christ)is the True God and ETERNAL LIFE.”
If Igor wants to skip back to previous chapters then let's go all the way back to the prologue of the epistle.
thinker
hey WJ,
That is of course your interpretation. Scripture also tells us that nobody has ever seen God, that God is no man or son of man and that he doesn't change (?).
I'm thinking about Hebrews 1:8.. even though I have no problem with the passage as someone who doesn;t believe in the trinity doctrine. I wondering, does anybody know more about this form of translation?
God is your throne forever and ever
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,14:21) oww.. TT I was just showing that HOTHEOS isn't in all cases about the Almighty God, YHWH.
Clearly!“Ho theos” is about “The Only True God” or all other so-called gods which are not gods at all, but are called such by men who have either made idols for themselves or are Polytheist”.
Now since there is “Only One True God” then just how can Jesus be a god at all unless he is in the same class as all other so-called gods who are not gods at all?
Do you make the Father and the Apostles liars or blashpemers?
Blessings WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 15 2010,14:49) Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
igor.Did you miss my post above yours? I duplicate it below:
Keith,
You are absolutely correct on 1 John 5:20. It says that “THIS ONE (Jesus Christ), is the true God and eternal life.” Verses 13-15 say that we are to pray in confidence toward the Son of God expecting that if we ask anything according to HIS will that HE will grant our petitions. Yet Igor wants us to skip right over these statements going back to chapter 4.
Well, I can play that game too. Let's skip all the way back to chapter 1 where Jesus is called “THAT ETERNAL LIFE.”
Then skip forward again to 5:20:
“THIS ONE (Jesus Christ)is the True God and ETERNAL LIFE.”
If Igor wants to skip back to previous chapters then let's go all the way back to the prologue of the epistle.
thinker
JackExactly!
Blessings WJ
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,14:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
IgorThe last referent in the quote is Jesus.
The verse is about the Son, Jesus.
The Eternal life is Jesus, chapter 1:1-3.
You should follow proper rules of grammar my friend and not be biased in your interpretation!
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,07:55) Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,14:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
IgorThe last referent in the quote is Jesus.
The verse is about the Son, Jesus.
The Eternal life is Jesus, chapter 1:1-3.
You should follow proper rules of grammar my friend and not be biased in your interpretation!
Blessings WJ
I really don't see a issue with the way I explain it to you. You are simply understanding it in a different way then I do.About HOTHEOS. i think we answered most of those passages.
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
Igor,See the Greek word οὗτός in 1 John 5:20:
οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει1, καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν2 ἵνα γινώσκομεν τὸν ἀληθινόν·3 καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ3, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς3 θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.
Go to the link at the end of this post. When the page appears put your arrow on the word “οὗτός.”
It says that it means “THE SAME.”
“THE SAME (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 15 2010,15:02) Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
Igor,See the Greek word οὗτός in 1 John 5:20:
οἴδαμεν δὲ ὅτι ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ θεοῦ ἥκει1, καὶ δέδωκεν ἡμῖν διάνοιαν2 ἵνα γινώσκομεν τὸν ἀληθινόν·3 καὶ ἐσμὲν ἐν τῷ ἀληθινῷ3, ἐν τῷ υἱῷ αὐτοῦ Ἰησοῦ Χριστῷ. οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ ἀληθινὸς3 θεὸς καὶ ζωὴ αἰώνιος.
Go to the link at the end of this post. When the page appears put your arrow on the word “οὗτός.”
It says that it means “THE SAME.”
“THE SAME (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.”
thinker
JackGood point!
Blessings WJ
TT,
Quote houtos 1) this, these, etc.
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 356
AV — this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12, they 10, misc 34Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 16 2010,07:55) Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 15 2010,14:43) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
uhm, TT, WJ?
Also you translation that you were using, WJ, also shows that This is the true God is not about Jesus but about God… atleast that is how i read it.
IgorThe last referent in the quote is Jesus.
The verse is about the Son, Jesus.
The Eternal life is Jesus, chapter 1:1-3.
You should follow proper rules of grammar my friend and not be biased in your interpretation!
Blessings WJ
I really don't see a issue with the way I explain it to you. You are simply understanding it in a different way then I do.About HOTHEOS. i think we answered most of those passages.
But you didn't answer my question. What did the Father mean when He addressed His Son as “HOTHEOS” (Heb. 1:8)?thinker
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,07:05) TT, Quote houtos 1) this, these, etc.
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 356
AV — this 157, these 59, he 31, the same 28, this man 25, she 12, they 10, misc 34
“This (Jesus Christ) is the true God and eternal life.” So what's your point?thinker
Quote (igorwulff @ Feb. 16 2010,06:43) and WE are in HIM that is true, even in HIS Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life..
I like the way you clipped part of the verse and said it is referring to the Father.Isn't John referring to Jesus the Eternal life the part of the verse you left out? 1 John 1:1-3
“this is the True God and eternal life“
Blessings WJ
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