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Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 12 2010,20:54) Igor,
Trinitarians have to learn how to close their minds to 'Truth'.
They have to maintain that GOD is an Organisation composed of three Gods: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.
Each of these Gods act independently, contain differing 'energies' and traits and give over to a Hierachical order, with the Father at the Top, the Son next and then the Holy Spirit.Each is a 'Person', a completely autonomous entity, acting independtly of the other two.
And yet, they are 'Co-Equal'.
Hierachical And Co-Equal.Three independent Gods, Hierachical, differently traited BUT yet 'Are not Three Gods But ONE God.
They cannot explain this, nor how Jesus, A God, can die for the Salvation of mankind, yet they know full well that only a Sinless 'Man' (A new 'Adam', a Human) could atone for the sins of the first Adam.
The Father has a name, the Son has a name….They have yet to devise a Name for the Holy Spirit…
The Holy Spirit is a person… Yet is described as a 'river of pure water', is 'poured' over the apostles, does not speak of itself but only that which God, or Jesus directs it. It is not seen in the same way that Jesus is seen, in a Human shape, nor does it directly address anyone from heaven as the Father does.
It is 'Given' from the father to thenSon And the Son 'gives' it to his believers…(So much for 'Co-equal'!)
It is nearly always acting like a Force, an enacter, a guide, a helper, an aid, a 'comforter' to believers.
God and Jesus both 'persuade', the Holy Spirit 'reminds' and 'maintains'.Trini's claim that the Holy Spirit is a Person … because the Scriptures call it 'he'.
I think there are many things called 'he' that are not necessarily a person (I believe that it is the personal And Holy Spirit of the Father)Numbers 23:19: 'God is not Man'…
Each trinitarian, has, therefore to draw up some strategy whereby they can create an ignorance of scriptural verses that are clear and precise, twist their minds as to how to incorporate a trinitarian view to the verse and convince themselves that this must be what it is saying.
Now, even if they cannot create their own 'truth', they fear to believe that they may have been wrong, and if they are then they are lost.
How do they continue in church of the worldwide order of 'Three Gods in One'?
Answer: Simple, just ignore the 'Truth' and continue in their false belief along with their false belief friends, phew…!
AskinBest description of trinitarians, and their believes, I have read yet, good job.
Georg
Georg,
Thank you – Praise Jesus – Worship God.
I felt Holy Spirit-filled and just kept writing.
(I was late for work because of it but lucky my manager wasn't in)
Igor,
Just adding to the point concerning “God” and “god”.
“God” in capitals (Caps 'G' or all Caps) is alluding to the God Almighty and must be read that way.
“god” in lowercase can mean anyone in any kind of power and/or authority but that is NOT “God”.God made us in his own image – that means that we too are 'gods' in that we can create, build, decide, judge, know right from wrong, we have a spirit like the father has a HOLY Spirit but ours is not holy because we (Adam) sinned.
In the old testament, noone knew about Jesus except as a prophecied Messiah. Everything that was to happen in the future was attributed to God and so it is even if Jesus is the 'middleman' who carries out God's will through the power of God's Holy Spirit.
If the scriptures says “God will do this, or God will do that”, this is precisely what happens. It does not demean his word if another agent actually carries out the word and teh act. God spoke it and it happened.
Of course, we need to credit the agent also and he is worthy of the praise, honor and glory that he receives for doing it.
When, if, some one reads “God said to my God” What does this mean? Are there TWO Gods?
God (Almighty God) said to 'MY GOD' – who is this “MY GOD”?
Just like for Thomas – “MY GOD” is a personal view of someone who is perceived as “a god” – a mighty one BUT not “THE GOD”.Thomas was not calling Jesus “God Almighty nor was David calling Jesus (to come) Almighty GOd because he already addressed Almighty God at the beginning of the verse.
This is born out by what later happened when God Almighty, indeed, put his enemies as a footstool under Jesus (By the way, this was a typical homage position for a defeated king to take).
Of course, anyone who wants to read “God said to MY God” and “My Lord and MY God” as meaning “Jesus is God” is entitled to their view as long as they don't try to persuade others that this erronous view is gospel!
In fact, to use these verses as 'proof' of Deity is bounding on pure and utter protracted desparation.
Genesis 1 says “…Let US create man in our Image”. So there are 'at least' two person's here (Does not prove a Trinity – Three!)
Later it says “Let US go down and confound their language…”Who are these “US here?
Well, the angels do not create man (I guess) so it must be God and Jesus (When do we read of God or jesus “TALKING TO” the Holy spirit?)
Confound their language – This could be God, Jesus and the Angels – it doesn't matter.Ok, so now we kow that when God addresses more than one heavenly person he says “US”. So why, oh why, does he then says “I, the Lord God, am ONE” and many other similar – Why not “WE the Lord God am ONE” or “I, the Lord God am THREE”?
The Evil Spirits occupying the body of the madman had no problem in proclaiming that they are more than one occupying a single body “My Name is Legion, [/b]for we are many”[/b];
Of course, if you are a trinitarian all this is meaningless…
Georg,
I am thanking my Lord for his spirit in writing this and that you also are spirit filled to recognise the spirit filled post.
I am seeking the truth and came on the site as 'JustAskin' for that purpose.
I am still 'Askin' but the Holy Spirit (as I believe it is) has been allowed to flow through me (Yes, I do get annoyed and 'angry' with TT and WJ but each time they teach me something about myself and also teaches me God's truth as had they not done what they did I would not have looked so deeply into the scriptures So To TT and WJ – bring it on!!)
I have felt that TT, once hooked to the truth would be like Paul and I have said so. But he has turned out to be more like Saul (O/T) even making claim that “God is a God of Half Truths” and putting Jesus above God himself – I have warned him!!!
WJ, I feel is just having a laugh with us all
Katjo, is just angry and doesn't post anything of any sense. Nothing that is said to her will make any difference (my point of view – not spirited!)
Hey JustAskin,
I believe that God Almighty, is the Father of Jesus/Yeshua the Messiah, and that His name is YHWH.
I also believe, based on scripture that Jesus pre-existed and had a big role in Creation, 'through…'.
The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of God and isn't a different 'person'.
and what else…. uhm…?
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 12 2010,11:10) Just adding to the point concerning “God” and “god”. “God” in capitals (Caps 'G' or all Caps) is alluding to the God Almighty and must be read that way.
“god” in lowercase can mean anyone in any kind of power and/or authority but that is NOT “God”.
Did the Holy Spirit show that to you?I agree with you!
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of “Christ, who is God over all“, forever praised! Amen. NIV2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: NIVTit 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, NIV1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. “This is the true God and eternal life“.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God“, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway “for our God” (Jesus).
Joh 20:28, 29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and “my God“. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us“.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God“, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”The Father calls Jesus God with a big “G” so how does that work with your claim? In every place “God” is referring to Jesus it is with the big “G”! Did the Holy Spirit show you this?
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
Are you really confused or just throwing a smokescreen of verses you do not understand to justify man's dogmas?
Whom do you serve??Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,08:53) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 12 2010,11:10) Just adding to the point concerning “God” and “god”. “God” in capitals (Caps 'G' or all Caps) is alluding to the God Almighty and must be read that way.
“god” in lowercase can mean anyone in any kind of power and/or authority but that is NOT “God”.
Did the Holy Spirit show that to you?I agree with you!
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of “Christ, who is God over all“, forever praised! Amen. NIV2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: NIVTit 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, NIV1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. “This is the true God and eternal life“.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God“, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway “for our God” (Jesus).
Joh 20:28, 29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and “my God“. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us“.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God“, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”The Father calls Jesus God with a big “G” so how does that work with your claim? In every place “God” is referring to Jesus it is with the big “G”! Did the Holy Spirit show you this?
Blessings WJ
WJ,Excellent post!
You ate nails and spat rust!
Nick revealed his wayward heart by calling your verses a “smokescreen.” Terraricca just said, “Battle of the intellectuals.”
There are no intellectuals here but you. Not one had a reply for the scriptures you gave.
You finished off JA for good.
thinker
Igor,
You have the Spirit.
Perhaps you could raise a challenge to WJ's response to my post.
(Here is a tip: Jesus is not [a] God so why is the word 'God' (Capital 'G' used)…Think 'Lord'!!)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Feb. 13 2010,08:53) Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 12 2010,11:10) Just adding to the point concerning “God” and “god”. “God” in capitals (Caps 'G' or all Caps) is alluding to the God Almighty and must be read that way.
“god” in lowercase can mean anyone in any kind of power and/or authority but that is NOT “God”.
Did the Holy Spirit show that to you?I agree with you!
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of “Christ, who is God over all“, forever praised! Amen. NIV2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: NIVTit 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ“, NIV1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. “This is the true God and eternal life“.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God“, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God“.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God“, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway “for our God” (Jesus).
Joh 20:28, 29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and “my God“. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us“.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God“, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”The Father calls Jesus God with a big “G” so how does that work with your claim? In every place “God” is referring to Jesus it is with the big “G”! Did the Holy Spirit show you this?
Blessings WJ
WJThis is how it reads in my Bible.
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Christ is over all, and that is why Paul blesses God for.
2 Pet.1:1, Peter is speaking of two beings, our God, and savior Jesus Christ, because it takes both to be our savior, one to die for us, Jesus, and one to forgive us for Jesus sake, God the Father.
Tit. 2:13, I believe that you can take this in the same context as when Jesus said, when you see me, you have seen the Father. I don't think that Paul is contradicting himself.
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
I have a copy of the NIV too, but I don't use it often because of their misquotes.
1 John 5:20, who is “him”? Jesus came that we may know “him”, the Father. “Him” is the true God, the Father, in him we have eternal live.Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Is. 9:6, Jesus already has been a wonderful Counsellor, and he will be again in the millennium. And, yes, he is a mighty god, a strong one, a great one; but he is not the Almighty God. The everlasting father of what? of everlasting life because it is trough him that we can receive everlasting life.
Enough already has been said about John 1:1, god is a title.
The same for Heb. 1:8
Is. 40:3, Jesus is not mentioned in that scripture.
Acts 7:59, if you read v. 55, you should understand why he said Jesus; he died in faith of Jesus.Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
It is not the Father that call Jesus god with a “G”, it was the writer of the book, or the translator.
If your looking for truth, you have to “search” the scriptures, if your just looking for scriptures that could be used to prove your point, you are not searching for truth
Georg
Hmm let's try…:)
In the Greek (that was used) New Testament there aren't any upper or lower case letters used as far as I know. So the word 'god' (=theos), could just as easily be translated as God or god. Therefore it is a matter of understanding what the meaning is of a text and of a word. When revering to the God, you should translate it as God, when revering to someone who isn't the Almighty God, it should be revered to 'god'. I could be wrong ofcourse..
However I also want to reply to WJ to a couple of verses.
Rom 9:5 (KJV)
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Many translations render it that way… of course that isn't the reason why it is right, but it makes it more likely.2 Peter 1:1-2 (KJV)
Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
I see a distinction between Jesus and God here. It seems that Peter isn't revering to Jesus as God here.I expect Titus 2:13 (KJV) is about the glory of God that will appear in/with Jesus at his appearance.
1 John 5:20 (KJV) seems to be about context, he is revering back to John 4 and 5:
1 John 4:12 (KJV) No one has ever seen God, but if we love one another, God lives in union with us, and his love is made perfect in us.
Well the Jews definitely saw Jesus…Isaiah 9:6, mighty god, is all about the Hebrew words that are being used. El gibbor.. if I remember correctly. The words in plural form are also used somewhere else, but these word as far as I know have never been used for YHWH in the OT. The translation could just as easily be “mighty hero”.
John 1:1 It is clear that John shows that the Word and God are different. The Word (or Logic, etc…) is at/with the God. Afterwards John says the Word is god. Again it could be a token of power towards the Word. That the Word or Logic was powerful that it's authority came from God. Some translations render the word THEOS with divine for the Word here. It just depends on how you understand the word 'god'. Angels are called gods, humans are called gods, I don't see a problem when the Word or Logic which is Jesus (pre-existence) is called god. If the Angels can be called gods then why not the first of Creation? Wasn't it Paul that said something similar.. about rulers and lords, etc..?
Hebrews 1:8 Isn't this a reference to a psalm 45:
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.Other translations render… the throne of thy God or similar. Anyone I don't see a problem, it simply shows that the word Elohim has a broader meaning and doesn't necessarily be about YHWH. It also shows clearly that Jesus has a God above him, which clearly defies the trinity doctrine. However when you understand what they are saying is that God is simply saying that he has anointed Jesus, who is powerful, etc..etc.. I don't see a problem.
When you understand that the word 'god' is a title and a position of power and authority, then is it wrong to say that Jesus is a god? He isn't the Almighty God, but he is the greatest of Creation.
Matthew 1:23 Image of God? Scripture tells us that God i
Matthew 1:23 Image of God? Scripture tells us that God is no man nor a son of man and that nobody has ever seen Him. However Jesus is the way to God and is the Image of God.
Acts 7:59 as far as I know the word THEOS isn't in that passage? Or is it in some manuscripts?
hmmm wierd.. was still 'previewing'.. or so i though..:laugh:
Igor,
The Holy Spirit is with you.Between you and Elizabeth I think there is a consensus that WJ's questions have been answered and found lacking in substance as implied by his inference.
How, for instance, does Paul refers to God differently to Jesus in his letter to Titus and then, seemingly, refers to Jesus AS God?
“God says to Jesus 'you are God!' and I am God, The Almighty, who, by myself, recognise no other God beside me.'”??
Paul says 'Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father'…'And the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour'(Titus 1:4)
JA said:
Quote How, for instance, does Paul refers to God differently to Jesus in his letter to Titus and then, seemingly, refers to Jesus AS God? The answer is simple: God is a PLURAL-UNITY.
“Let US make man in OUR image” (Genesis 1:26).
thinker
TT
do you ever go back to your previous topics and quotes,may be you have them print,?
do you do not see the repeat of verse always the same,always discussion on words,and never vindicate God s glory,
you know if you accept one lie any body can built on that lie an empire but it will fall down,wen the truth comes to shake it.
Quote (terraricca @ Feb. 14 2010,03:01) TT do you ever go back to your previous topics and quotes,may be you have them print,?
do you do not see the repeat of verse always the same,always discussion on words,and never vindicate God s glory,
you know if you accept one lie any body can built on that lie an empire but it will fall down,wen the truth comes to shake it.
t,Disprove WJ's understanding of the numerous scriptures he employed:
Rom 9:5
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of “Christ, who is God over all”, forever praised! Amen. NIV2 Pet 1:1
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” have received a faith as precious as ours: NIVTit 2:13
while we wait for the blessed hope–the glorious appearing of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ”, NIV1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know him that is true and we are in him that is true even in his Son Jesus Christ. “This is the true God and eternal life”.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God”, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and “the Word was God”.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, “Thy throne, O God”, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jesus), make straight in the desert a highway “for our God” (Jesus).
Joh 20:28, 29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and “my God”. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, “God with us”.Acts 7:59,
“And they stoned Stephen, “calling upon God”, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”thinker
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