Food for thought

[shimmer]

Bod, a verse came to me with you,

“Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes”….”Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth”

Bod, why are you different now, what happened ? Remember the conversations we used to have, look back. Was it all the long ones which took over ? Were you challenged too much ? Why Bod  ?

[PaulCohen]

Victor Hafichuk's reply:

Quote

Bod replied to Paul: Not having the sin nature of fallen man, Jesus Christ learned perfect obedience to God in the days of His flesh, paving the way for those who believe on Him to obtain like power of grace. In the state of Adam before the fall, He resisted temptation and overcame for us all. (Could Jesus Christ Have Sinned? & Grace – The Reality) http://www.thepathoftruth.com/statementofdoctrine.htm Problems with this statement of Doctrine is 1. Paul Cohen believes that Jesus is God but then says “Jesus learned obedience to God” Why would God need to “learn” how to obey Himself?

The answer to that is a simple one to those who know God, but a mystery to those who don’t:

God gave Himself a body and descended to earth to redeem us, you, me, and everyone throughout the ages. God put form visible to our senses in this world to His Words, His Essence. That is the Biblical definition of “The Son” of God, and not as Muslims and foolish others have defined or perceived His Sonship to be. Of Jesus Christ it is declared:

“For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with [as] God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross” (Philippians 2:5-8 MKJV).

When He has completed this stage of His plan for mankind, here is what comes at the end of it:

“The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him Who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him Who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all” (1 Corinthians 15:26-28 MKJV).

How does one enter into fulfillment in Jesus Christ, the Creator of the universe and all things therein? Here it is (we speak by experience and revelation, and not by doctrine only):

Romans 10:6-11 MKJV
(6)  But the righteousness of faith says this: “Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?” that is, to bring Christ down;
(7)  or “Who shall descend into the deep?”; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.
(8)  But what does it say? “The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart”; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim;
(9)  Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.
(10)  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation.
(11)  For the Scripture says, “Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame.”

God couldn’t care less about your blessings, powers, or preeminence over your fellow man, Bod. Indeed, because you think those things are worthy, therefore, He despises them, but He loves and manifests Himself to those who humble themselves before Him, believe and obey Him, counting themselves as unworthy. However, only He can give you that. I couldn’t accomplish that, and neither can you. No man can.

Quote

2. Paul Cohen says that the state of Adam before “The Fall” resisted temptation but does Paul Cohen realize that Adam was in the state of Adam when he commited his rebellion he did not acquire a new state it was the result of him making a choice in his initial state. If Adam was Made in a state where he could not have sinned then he could not have sinned.

Another easy question to answer for those who know Him:

We are speaking two Adams, the earthly Adam and the Heavenly Adam here, the first and The Last. There is a great difference between the two, one being mortal man, created by the Last Adam; the other being God in the likeness of man, yet the Creator.

Paul Cohen did not say that the first Adam resisted temptation – plainly, the first Adam fell to it. Paul was speaking of God coming to earth as Jesus Christ in the likeness of a man in the state he was in before The Fall, that is, as Adam before corrupted by sin. As a man, Adam could not resist temptation; he was powerless to resist evil and fell into disobedience.

This was the process to which mankind was subjected by his Creator, with the purpose of better things. As the Scripture says:

“For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him Who subjected it on hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God”
(Romans 8:20-21 MKJV).

When Jesus Christ, the Last Adam came to redeem man, He being God, He did not fall to temptation, thus demonstrating He was God. He laid down His life and then raised Himself from the dead, which also proved He was God. The beloved brother John, His disciple, quotes Jesus saying:

“Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days? But He spoke of the temple of His body”  
(John 2:19-21 MKJV).

How do I know Jesus is alive? Because He speaks to, informs, protects, guides, and blesses me and those with me. He has given us His Resurrection Life. By Him, we speak. He lives, Bod! He dwells in, and relates to, those who know Him on earth as well as in Heaven. That can’t be said of any other man that ever lived.

Bod, you sign off with: “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.”

Very true that He puts no partners with God. He is God and nobody is Lord of lords and King of kings but Him. Neither does He sanction any other worship but the worship of God. He is the Beginning and the End, Almighty God.

[PaulCohen]

Victor Hafichuk's reply:

Quote

Bod replied to Paul: There is no single perfect Bible translation, and besides, men have tampered with some of the Biblical texts. The only way to know or understand the Bible is by the Spirit of God and by preachers sent by God who perceive and teach the Word in His Spirit. (How We View and Use the Scriptures & Is the KJV the Perfect Word of God?) http://www.thepathoftruth.com/statementofdoctrine.htm So, the Bible has been corrupted?

Muslims try so hard to discredit the Bible, using a proven corrupt document (the Quran) to try to prove it is corrupted! (Yet they refer to the Bible wherever it suits them.) But we know that nothing in this physical plane touched by man has been left unscathed, including the Bible. However, it is not hard to know what is true and what is not if one is born of the Spirit of Truth, which we are. That’s why God descended to mankind in Christ Jesus, that we might have the Truth within and harmony with God by His Spirit, which Jesus gave us.

Therefore, we know what is true and what is not and we can testify to you that the Bible is the one and only book of which we are aware that God used men to write and compile over mankind’s history, to let the world know Him, His Laws, and His will for us all.

Those are things you aren’t aware of, Bod, because you have never met and spoken with Him. You have never been born again. We have, and we know whereof we speak, being at the throne, at the Source, which all His sons are.

“But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His Name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:12-13 MKJV).

You sign off with “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.”

I will reply something new to each time you use that signoff, Bod, Lord willing (it being so full of the spirit of error). That statement is a sample of heinous flattery. To say that Jesus Christ was but a prophet and a great man is like saying a man can speak. There is nothing unusual or great about that! It goes without saying that Christ was a prophet. In fact, to stop there is an insult, because it delegitimizes God, bringing Him down to the level of a mere created man. An insult masked as a compliment is a lie. God hates lies, will deal with liars, and does so very effectively. Many liars have perished in their blasphemies and deceptions, having fooled themselves first and foremost.

[PaulCohen]

Victor Hafichuk's reply:

Quote

Bod relied to Paul: Many are deceived into thinking they worship God, when in reality they worship the Bible. God is not contained within two leather covers. Those who think otherwise are Bibliolaters. The written Word of God is not the Word of God made flesh. (False Christianity Unmasked & Bible Worship Used by Men to Cover Evil) http://www.thepathoftruth.com/statementofdoctrine.htm Wouldn't this statement also mean that the Quran could be the word of God? You would have to be a Bibliolater to totally disagree.

This statement does not mean that the Quran could be the Word of God. It only means that God has not limited Himself to a particular book. He is everywhere and manifests Himself in many ways. He dwells within those who have been born of Him and they aren't limited to a book.

No believer was ever limited to the Bible in order to communicate and fellowship with God. But neither is God the Author of all those books that presume to represent Him, His will, and character.

We know the Quran is not the Word of God, and we know the Bible is. We know what is of God, Who only speaks truth, and what is of man, who is a proven liar, but for the grace of God. That does not make us Bibliolaters (worshippers of the Bible as God). We worship the One Who gave us the Bible, among other things He has given us.

That said, there are many who worship the Bible and they are wrong for it. They break His Second Commandment in so doing. But Muslims can’t talk in these matters, being guilty themselves in their many idolatrous ways, having no regard for His Law.

You sign off with, “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.”

Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace and its Author, as Creator of all things. Of Him it was prophesied (among many other things) centuries before He appeared in the flesh on earth:

“For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6 MKJV).

So who are you, a mere man, to bless Him with peace, with something only He can bless you with, if He so chooses?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (seekingtruth @ Oct. 24 2010,07:09)

Jesus said because of their hardness of heart it was allowed, but it was not meant to be. Sorry I am on my phone so I cannot comment further until I research the verses, I will reply later. Wm

Even if it was allowed because of a reason it still conflicted with what was before it, right?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 24 2010,19:54)

Bod, a verse came to me with you, “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes”….”Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth” Bod, why are you different now, what happened ? Remember the conversations we used to have, look back. Was it all the long ones which took over ? Were you challenged too much ? Why Bod  ?

Look to who? If you are not looking to GOD you will not be saved.

I am not any different you simply have went further and further away from what you used to say and agree on, it is all recorded here on this site how you were not showing contempt for Islam and then you started to show contempt for it, it's all recorded on this forum.

Now tell me where have I changed my position it's all recorded here on this site I have been consistent.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (PaulCohen @ Oct. 25 2010,05:45)

Victor Hafichuk's reply: Quote Bod replied to Paul: Not having the sin nature of fallen man, Jesus Christ learned perfect obedience to God in the days of His flesh, paving the way for those who believe on Him to obtain like power of grace. In the state of Adam before the fall, He resisted temptation and overcame for us all. (Could Jesus Christ Have Sinned? & Grace – The Reality) http://www.thepathoftruth.com/statementofdoctrine.htm Problems with this statement of Doctrine is 1. Paul Cohen believes that Jesus is God but then says “Jesus learned obedience to God” Why would God need to “learn” how to obey Himself? The answer to that is a simple one to those who know God, but a mystery to those who don’t: God gave Himself a body and descended to earth to redeem us, you, me, and everyone throughout the ages. God put form visible to our senses in this world to His Words, His Essence. That is the Biblical definition of “The Son” of God, and not as Muslims and foolish others have defined or perceived His Sonship to be. Of Jesus Christ it is declared: “For let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with [as] God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross” (Philippians 2:5-8 MKJV). When He has completed this stage of His plan for mankind, here is what comes at the end of it: “The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him Who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him Who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all” (1 Corinthians 15:26-28 MKJV). How does one enter into fulfillment in Jesus Christ, the Creator of the universe and all things therein? Here it is (we speak by experience and revelation, and not by doctrine only): Romans 10:6-11 MKJV (6)  But the righteousness of faith says this: “Do not say in your heart, Who shall ascend into Heaven?” that is, to bring Christ down; (7)  or “Who shall descend into the deep?”; that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead. (8)  But what does it say? “The Word is near you, even in your mouth and in your heart”; that is, the Word of Faith which we proclaim; (9)  Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved. (10)  For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth one confesses unto salvation. (11)  For the Scripture says, “Everyone believing on Him shall not be put to shame.” God couldn’t care less about your blessings, powers, or preeminence over your fellow man, Bod. Indeed, because you think those things are worthy, therefore, He despises them, but He loves and manifests Himself to those who humble themselves before Him, believe and obey Him, counting themselves as unworthy. However, only He can give you that. I couldn’t accomplish that, and neither can you. No man can. Quote 2. Paul Cohen says that the state of Adam before “The Fall” resisted temptation but does Paul Cohen realize that Adam was in the state of Adam when he commited his rebellion he did not acquire a new state it was the result of him making a choice in his initial state. If Adam was Made in a state where he could not have sinned then he could not have sinned. Another easy question to answer for those who know Him: We are speaking two Adams, the earthly Adam and the Heavenly Adam here, the first and The Last. There is a great difference between the two, one being mortal man, created by the Last Adam; the other being God in the likeness of man, yet the Creator. Paul Cohen did not say that the first Adam resisted temptation – plainly, the first Adam fell to it. Paul was speaking of God coming to earth as Jesus Christ in the likeness of a man in the state he was in before The Fall, that is, as Adam before corrupted by sin. As a man, Adam could not resist temptation; he was powerless to resist evil and fell into disobedience. This was the process to which mankind was subjected by his Creator, with the purpose of better things. As the Scripture says: “For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him Who subjected it on hope that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Romans 8:20-21 MKJV). When Jesus Christ, the Last Adam came to redeem man, He being God, He did not fall to temptation, thus demonstrating He was God. He laid down His life and then raised Himself from the dead, which also proved He was God. The beloved brother John, His disciple, quotes Jesus saying: “Jesus answered and said to them, Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. Then the Jews said, This temple was forty-six years building, and will you rear it up in three days? But He spoke of the temple of His body”   (John 2:19-21 MKJV). How do I know Jesus is alive? Because He speaks to, informs, protects, guides, and blesses me and those with me. He has given us His Resurrection Life. By Him, we speak. He lives, Bod! He dwells in, and relates to, those who know Him on earth as well as in Heaven. That can’t be said of any other man that ever lived. Bod, you sign off with: “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.” Very true that He puts no partners with God. He is God and nobody is Lord of lords and King of kings but Him. Neither does He sanction any other worship but the worship of God. He is the Beginning and the End, Almighty God.

First of all I would like to say I welcome your reply and the fact that you have escaped some of the heresy you have taken part in as far as realizing that the trinity is false.

However your catholic doctrine still runs deep in you. There is no reason to believe that Jesus is God if it were true his own disciples would not have declared:

Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Acts 2:21-23

This statement alone shows your great error but let's see if I can more clearly explain to you the root of your misunderstandings

Victor you still seem to be attracted to the MYSTERY RELIGIONS of ROME saying:

Quote

The answer to that is a simple one to those who know God, but a mystery to those who don’t:

But the scriptures say:

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2 Peter 1:19-21

Where is the scripture that says God gave himself a body and descended?

The scriptures say about God:

Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 23:23-25

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.
Hosea 11:8-10

and most of all:

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
John 4:23-25

Jesus was not a Spirit on earth nor was he a spirit after being “resurrected” according to the scriptures, so how then can he be God without being a Spirit

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luke 24:38-40

also can you please explain to me what the word EQUAL means? to be equal there must be two objects not one

now you quoted:

“The last enemy made to cease is death. For He put all things under His feet. But when He says that all things have been put under His feet, it is plain that it excepts Him Who has put all things under Him. But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subject to Him Who has subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all things in all” (1 Corinthians 15:26-28 MKJV).

Now you see plainly that it says that “the son will be subject to Him” but you just quoted a few lines back

Quote

God gave Himself a body and descended to earth

So if this body with God in it is the son of God why will this God be subject to God? You see your confusion and misunderstanding?

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God couldn’t care less about your blessings, powers, or preeminence over your fellow man, Bod. Indeed, because you think those things are worthy, therefore, He despises them, but He loves and manifests Himself to those who humble themselves before Him, believe and obey Him, counting themselves as unworthy. However, only He can give you that. I couldn’t accomplish that, and neither can you. No man can.

God does not anyone to count themselves as unworthy(Where do you get this stuff?) This is the catholic guilt method of conversion it is silly how could you see yourselves as unworthy when Jesus says

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 5:47-48

and

Luke 12:28 (King James Version)
28If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?

Your message is false God sees those who call upon HIS name as priceless but mankind is ever ungrateful

And what think those who invent lies against Allah, of the Day of Judgment? Verily Allah is full of bounty to mankind, but most of them are ungrateful.
( سورة يونس , Yunus, Chapter #10, Verse #60)

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How do I know Jesus is alive? Because He speaks to, informs, protects, guides, and blesses me and those with me. He has given us His Resurrection Life. By Him, we speak. He lives, Bod! He dwells in, and relates to, those who know Him on earth as well as in Heaven. That can’t be said of any other man that ever lived.

I know Jesus lives but now I ask you this is Jesus Alive and Worshiping God?

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Revelation 3:11-13

Who is this God that Jesus is talking about? You said he was God so who is Jesus worshiping?

[shimmer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 25 2010,07:57)

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 24 2010,19:54) Bod, a verse came to me with you, “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes”….”Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth” Bod, why are you different now, what happened ? Remember the conversations we used to have, look back. Was it all the long ones which took over ? Were you challenged too much ? Why Bod  ? Look to who? If you are not looking to GOD you will not be saved. I am not any different you simply have went further and further away from what you used to say and agree on, it is all recorded here on this site how you were not showing contempt for Islam and then you started to show contempt for it, it's all recorded on this forum. Now tell me where have I changed my position it's all recorded here on this site I have been consistent.

Fair enough, I did. But bod I learned as I went, I could see the huge differences in the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, but you couldnt see them. So I did change in what I saw,

The God of Islam has no Son, the God of Islam has eternal torment, the God of Islam is not a Father to anyone, etc,

[bodhitharta]

Quote (PaulCohen @ Oct. 25 2010,05:53)

Quote Muslims try so hard to discredit the Bible, Actually that is not true, Muslims discredit the corruption of the Holy Scriptures and so should you but the Bible tells us about this already Jeremiah 8:8 (Young's Literal Translation) 8How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes. The Quran simply confirms and agrees with this: But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind. ( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #13) Paul the Apostle is further proof of this misquoting the OT saying: Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Hebrews 10:4-6 This is a total misquote and one of the reasons you believe and loveth a lie the actual Quote says: Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. Psalm 40:5-7 By substituting ears for Body Paul was able to convert the meaning of the quote and convince his audience that somehow God accepted Human Sacrifice when that is not the actual Quote but most don't know but now you do. Quote using a proven corrupt document (the Quran) to try to prove it is corrupted! (Yet they refer to the Bible wherever it suits them.) The bible does not belong to Christians it belongs to everyone and it is supposed to be refered to: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2 Timothy 3:15-17 Quote But we know that nothing in this physical plane touched by man has been left unscathed, including the Bible. However, it is not hard to know what is true and what is not if one is born of the Spirit of Truth, which we are. That’s why God descended to mankind in Christ Jesus, that we might have the Truth within and harmony with God by His Spirit, which Jesus gave us Why do you keep vacillating between God and Jesus? If God is Jesus why do you yourself keep making a distinction? Quote Therefore, we know what is true and what is not and we can testify to you that the Bible is the one and only book of which we are aware that God used men to write and compile over mankind’s history, to let the world know Him, His Laws, and His will for us all. Well, I give you credit for admitting that it is the only book you are aware of but perhaps if you become more aware you will realize that it is not. Quote Those are things you aren’t aware of, Bod, because you have never met and spoken with Him. You have never been born again. We have, and we know whereof we speak, being at the throne, at the Source, which all His sons are. Now, you can even know my relationship with God? Lol…Lol Let God judge that one and be a witness between me and you Quote “But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His Name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:12-13 MKJV). I am not doubting whether you are of God at all, I am just saying are too presumptuous and lacking in knowledge and that's okay because that is what growth is about and plus you have that huge Catholic hurdle to get over, you even spoke about levels and how you have progressed and I believe and commend you for your faith and growth but it need not take another decade, another year, another month or another day you can Quantum leap into a more complete understanding by simply focusing and becoming more aware of what GOD wants and not what Victor wants. Quote You sign off with “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.” It's true! And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:2-4 Do you not see that Jesus is speaking of the only true God and says to know that God and the one whom he has sent which is Jesus? Receive admonition! Quote I will reply something new to each time you use that signoff, Bod, Lord willing (it being so full of the spirit of error). That statement is a sample of heinous flattery. To say that Jesus Christ was but a prophet and a great man is like saying a man can speak. There is nothing unusual or great about that! It goes without saying that Christ was a prophet. In fact, to stop there is an insult, because it delegitimizes God, bringing Him down to the level of a mere created man. An insult masked as a compliment is a lie. God hates lies, will deal with liars, and does so very effectively. Many liars have perished in their blasphemies and deceptions, having fooled themselves first and foremost. Jesus is a prophet and the promised Messiah of Israel and if you think that is no great thing then you are completely lost and wanting. You have already delegitimized God by calling him a man in any way because God is not tempted with sin and Jesus was. Receive admonition!

Quote

Muslims try so hard to discredit the Bible,

Actually that is not true, Muslims discredit the corruption of the Holy Scriptures and so should you but the Bible tells us about this already

Jeremiah 8:8 (Young's Lite
ral Translation)
8How do ye say, We [are] wise, And the law of Jehovah [is] with us? Surely, lo, falsely it hath wrought, The false pen of scribes.

The Quran simply confirms and agrees with this:

But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #13)

Paul the Apostle is further proof of this misquoting the OT saying:

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Hebrews 10:4-6

This is a total misquote and one of the reasons you believe and loveth a lie the actual Quote says:

Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Psalm 40:5-7

By substituting ears for Body Paul was able to convert the meaning of the quote and convince his audience that somehow God accepted Human Sacrifice when that is not the actual Quote but most don't know but now you do.

Quote

using a proven corrupt document (the Quran) to try to prove it is corrupted! (Yet they refer to the Bible wherever it suits them.)

The bible does not belong to Christians it belongs to everyone and it is supposed to be refered to:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2 Timothy 3:15-17

Quote

But we know that nothing in this physical plane touched by man has been left unscathed, including the Bible. However, it is not hard to know what is true and what is not if one is born of the Spirit of Truth, which we are. That’s why God descended to mankind in Christ Jesus, that we might have the Truth within and harmony with God by His Spirit, which Jesus gave us

Why do you keep vacillating between God and Jesus? If God is Jesus why do you yourself keep making a distinction?

Quote

Therefore, we know what is true and what is not and we can testify to you that the Bible is the one and only book of which we are aware that God used men to write and compile over mankind’s history, to let the world know Him, His Laws, and His will for us all.

Well, I give you credit for admitting that it is the only book you are aware of but perhaps if you become more aware you will realize that it is not.

Quote

Those are things you aren’t aware of, Bod, because you have never met and spoken with Him. You have never been born again. We have, and we know whereof we speak, being at the throne, at the Source, which all His sons are.

Now, you can even know my relationship with God? Lol…Lol
Let God judge that one and be a witness between me and you

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“But as many as received Him, He gave to them authority to become the children of God, to those who believe on His Name, who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God” (John 1:12-13 MKJV).

I am not doubting whether you are of God at all, I am just saying are too presumptuous and lacking in knowledge and that's okay because that is what growth is about and plus you have that huge Catholic hurdle to get over, you even spoke about levels and how you have progressed and I believe and commend you for your faith and growth but it need not take another decade, another year, another month or another day you can Quantum leap into a more complete understanding by simply focusing and becoming more aware of what GOD wants and not what Victor wants.

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You sign off with “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.”

It's true!

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:2-4

Do you not see that Jesus is speaking of the only true God and says to know that God and the one whom he has sent which is Jesus? Receive admonition!

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I will reply something new to each time you use that signoff, Bod, Lord willing (it being so full of the spirit of error). That statement is a sample of heinous flattery. To say that Jesus Christ was but a prophet and a great man is like saying a man can speak. There is nothing unusual or great about that! It goes without saying that Christ was a prophet. In fact, to stop there is an insult, because it delegitimizes God, bringing Him down to the level of a mere created man. An insult masked as a compliment is a lie. God hates lies, will deal with liars, and does so very effectively. Many liars have perished in their blasphemies and deceptions, having fooled themselves first and foremost.

Jesus is a prophet and the promised Messiah of Israel and if you think that is no great thing then you are completely lost and wanting. You have already delegitimized God by calling him a man in any way because God is not tempted with sin and Jesus was. Receive admonition!

[bodhitharta]

Quote (PaulCohen @ Oct. 25 2010,05:57)

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Victor Hafichuk's reply: Quote Bod relied to Paul: Many are deceived into thinking they worship God, when in reality they worship the Bible. God is not contained within two leather covers. Those who think otherwise are Bibliolaters. The written Word of God is not the Word of God made flesh. (False Christianity Unmasked & Bible Worship Used by Men to Cover Evil) http://www.thepathoftruth.com/statementofdoctrine.htm Wouldn't this statement also mean that the Quran could be the word of God? You would have to be a Bibliolater to totally disagree. This statement does not mean that the Quran could be the Word of God. It only means that God has not limited Himself to a particular book.

So the Quran COULD be the word of God, that is what you are saying unless you have some reason to dispute your own argument besides you just don't like that idea.

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He is everywhere and manifests Himself in many ways. He dwells within those who have been born of Him and they aren't limited to a book.

Victor it seems you are saying that to give your own self some “prophetic” leeway but I'm afraid I'll have to expose that little Catholic Pope urge in you. You want to be the leader of your little flock but Jesus said:

Luke 22:25-26 (King James Version)
25And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
26But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.

You should stop your power grab it is senseless and leads to destruction. You are teaching False Doctrine as it is you said Jesus is God but LOOK:

Mark 10:40 (King James Version)
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.

This is Jesus saying he does not have the power or authority to even decide who will be on his right and who will be on his left, who has this POWER if not Jesus? Jesus said it is not his.
Receive Admonition!

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No believer was ever limited to the Bible in order to communicate and fellowship with God. But neither is God the Author of all those books that presume to represent Him, His will, and character.

All what books claim this?

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We know the Quran is not the Word of God, and we know the Bible is.

No, you assume the Quran is not because you are not aware that it is

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We know what is of God, Who only speaks truth, and what is of man, who is a proven liar,

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:6-8

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
2 Corinthians 12:15-17

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1 Timothy 1:14-16

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but for the grace of God. That does not make us Bibliolaters (worshippers of the Bible as God). We worship the One Who gave us the Bible, among other things He has given us.

Good, then don't be so quick to judge what you don't know or understand

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That said, there are many who worship the Bible and they are wrong for it. They break His Second Commandment in so doing. But Muslims can’t talk in these matters, being guilty themselves in their many idolatrous ways, having no regard for His Law.

There is no God but God that Is Islam and 100% Idolatry free

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You sign off with, “Peace and blessings upon Jesus The Christ forever, He puts no partners with God and worships Our Father as The Only True God.” Jesus Christ is the Prince of Peace and its Author, as Creator of all things. Of Him it was prophesied (among many other things) centuries before He appeared in the flesh on earth: “For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the government shall be on His shoulder; and His Name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6 MKJV).

Incorrect and refers to Hezekiah which when translated means
Yahweh strengthens or Strengthened by God, you can not show me any NT reference of Jesus being called the Prince of Peace as Jesus even said:

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:33-35

The verse you referenced belogs to Hezekiah

Isaiah 1 1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

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So who are you, a mere man, to bless Him with peace, with something only He can bless you with, if He so chooses?

And moreover the king's servants came to bless our lord king David, saying, God make the name of Solomon better than thy name, and make his throne greater than thy throne. And the king bowed himself upon the bed.
1 Kings 1:46-48

I told you, your going to have to study a little more

If Jesus was God I would certainly bless him and even though he is not God I will still bless him but you don't even understand why this is so

Ephesians 1:3 (King James Version)
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

God bless you as well

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 25 2010,10:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Oct. 25 2010,07:57) Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 24 2010,19:54) Bod, a verse came to me with you, “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes”….”Turn to Me, and be saved, all ends of the earth” Bod, why are you different now, what happened ? Remember the conversations we used to have, look back. Was it all the long ones which took over ? Were you challenged too much ? Why Bod  ? Look to who? If you are not looking to GOD you will not be saved. I am not any different you simply have went further and further away from what you used to say and agree on, it is all recorded here on this site how you were not showing contempt for Islam and then you started to show contempt for it, it's all recorded on this forum. Now tell me where have I changed my position it's all recorded here on this site I have been consistent. Fair enough, I did. But bod I learned as I went, I could see the huge differences in the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, but you couldnt see them. So I did change in what I saw, The God of Islam has no Son, the God of Islam has eternal torment, the God of Islam is not a Father to anyone, etc,

You have rejected all the things about God that you personally do not like, this is not the way of God it is the way of men.

You reject the Old Testament and the wars that God ordered and the killings that God oredered according to those scriptures and because you reject that of course you reject whatever you find unsettling to you.

I understand where you are coming from but it is not the right place. Have you ever watched a murderer on tv during a court trial? They often seem so nice with even great personalities enough to make you even like them but does that mean they should be set free because they “seem” harmless enough?

Your heart may be loving and peaceful and I personally find that you are a beautiful person but that doesn't mean I would make you a soldier or a court judge. There are jobs for everyone but sometimes to be compassionate and peaceful to some you have to destroy others who would destroy that peace.

Imagine if we all just kept smiling and talking peace while hitler was killing all the Jews…Imagine that

[shimmer]

Bod, I know what you are saying, but I understand why God destroys, I have no problem with that, cleaning everything up, removing what is bad before it infects everything else, that I understand.

Not eternal torment though.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 25 2010,11:24)

Bod, I know what you are saying, but I understand why God destroys, I have no problem with that, cleaning everything up, removing what is bad before it infects everything else, that I understand. Not eternal torment though.

For a second let's leave the debate about hell alone, now you still have said that God does not want war do you still hold that position because God has allowed war and has ordered Israel to fight and kill.

My point here is that the further you have gotten away from what the Bible actually says about God you have rejected Islam.

There is no reason to object to Islam and if your read the scriptures can you please tell me how the God of the Bible and the God of Islam differ in personality or temperment?

[shimmer]

Bod, in the past God detroyed with war and killing, but now, since Jesus, He has said – No – wait, untill Jesus comes back, then there will be judgment, then God decides what will happen. The kingdom of God will have nothing bad in it. Anyone who hurts others, anyone who does wrong, they wont be there. Also anyone who disobeys God,

Now is the time when the gospel of the kingdom is taken through the world, and then the end will come.

Has the gospel, the scriptures, have they been taken through the whole world yet ?

The difference in the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, there are many differences bod, I cant list them right now though, later.

Where I think im different in how I see things, compared to most here, is I am Amillenial, please look it up.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (shimmer @ Oct. 25 2010,11:57)

Bod, in the past God detroyed with war and killing, but now, since Jesus, He has said – No – wait, untill Jesus comes back, then there will be judgment, then God decides what will happen. The kingdom of God will have nothing bad in it. Anyone who hurts others, anyone who does wrong, they wont be there. Also anyone who disobeys God, Now is the time when the gospel of the kingdom is taken through the world, and then the end will come. Has the gospel, the scriptures, have they been taken through the whole world yet ? The difference in the God of Islam and the God of Christianity, there are many differences bod, I cant list them right now though, later. Where I think im different in how I see things, compared to most here, is I am Amillenial, please look it up.

When did Jesus himself declare all these things? Also look what you said you said in the Past God did destroy with war and killing so what makes you believe that God ever stopped doing such when it is clear that there never was any other way. God says about Peace:

Jeremiah 6:13-15 (King James Version)
13For from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness; and from the prophet even unto the priest every one dealeth falsely.
14They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.

Jesus never said wait until he comes back he said:

Revelation 22:10-11 (English Standard Version)
10And he said to me,(A) “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11(B) Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”

And yes of course the Gospel has ben taken through the world again and again but the scriptures even say:

But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Matthew 10:22-24

But you don't understand, it wasn't time for him to come back then although he thought it might be so and you being amillineal it's already been two milleniums and still you wait because you don't believe Jesus when he said he did not know

Best put your heart into the one Jesus Worships so you can know what is really going on

[shimmer]

Bod I'm sure I remember going over most of those things with you, my mind is too cluttered to even try at the moment, but regarding this..

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you don't understand, it wasn't time for him to come back then although he thought it might be so and you being amillineal it's already been two milleniums and still you wait because you don't believe Jesus when he said he did not know

There shall come in the latter end of the days scoffers, according to their own desires going on, and saying, `Where is the promise of his presence? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;' And this one thing let not be unobserved by you, beloved, that one day with the Lord [is] as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day; the Lord is not slow in regard to the promise, as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,

I cant reply for a while, I need some time out of this forum bod, or I will try to have some time out,

[dirtyknections]

“Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.”

“We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another.”

“The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”

“Religion consists of a set of things which the average man thinks he believes and wishes he was certain”

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

These quotes describe (IMHO) both of your religions

[PaulCohen]

Victor wrote to Bod:

Those are things you aren’t aware of, Bod, because you have never met and spoken with Him. You have never been born again. We have, and we know whereof we speak, being at the throne, at the Source, which all His sons are.

Bod replied:

Now, you can even know my relationship with God? Lol…Lol
Let God judge that one and be a witness between me and you

Victor’s reply:

Amen, Bod. You said it there. Let’s get it on. All this other talk isn't going anywhere; you aren't listening. But now we will let God decide. He is the One in charge and will make known who is His, who isn’t, who speaks the truth, and who doesn’t, leaving no doubt for all onlookers. He will answer this request of yours, because He wholeheartedly concurs with it, as do we.

[Ed J]

Hi Paul,

So glad you and Victor (our Christian Brothers) joined with us at h-net!

Witnessing to a worldwide audience in behalf of YHVH!
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā  hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:14)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org (Ecl.9:12-16)
PS. Did you read the free e-book (HolyCityBibleCode) I sent you guys yet?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (PaulCohen @ Nov. 01 2010,03:48)

Victor wrote to Bod: Those are things you aren’t aware of, Bod, because you have never met and spoken with Him. You have never been born again. We have, and we know whereof we speak, being at the throne, at the Source, which all His sons are. Bod replied: Now, you can even know my relationship with God? Lol…Lol Let God judge that one and be a witness between me and you Victor’s reply: Amen, Bod. You said it there. Let’s get it on. All this other talk isn't going anywhere; you aren't listening. But now we will let God decide. He is the One in charge and will make known who is His, who isn’t, who speaks the truth, and who doesn’t, leaving no doubt for all onlookers. He will answer this request of yours, because He wholeheartedly concurs with it, as do we.

Okay, first off why are you not Catholic?

[Author]

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