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Jer 10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
If you read the entire verse however you will see that it is comparing Idols (which are made by hand) to God. While a Christmas tree is an Idol to some, I do not believe that was the intent of the writing when it was written. It was stating that the heathen cut a peice of wood, fashion it and cover it with silver and gold, But it just sits there till you pick it up and carry it somewhere else. They were idols because people put there trust in them God said do not fear them they are nothing.
1Hear ye the word, O house of Israel, That Jehovah hath spoken for you.
2Thus said Jehovah: Unto the way of the nations accustom not yourselves, And by the signs of the heavens be not affrighted, For the nations are affrighted by them.
3For the statutes of the peoples are vanity, For a tree from a forest hath one cut, Work of the hands of an artificer, with an axe,
4With silver and with gold they beautify it, With nails and with hammers they fix it, And it doth not stumble.
5As a palm they [are] stiff, and they speak not, They are surely borne, for they step not, Be not afraid of them, for they do no evil, Yea, also to do good is not in them.
The main point I was trying to make was, regardless of whether Christmas is good or evil it is important that the scriptures be kept in context. As I read through different translations it seems those who wrote some of the versions also felt it was referring to a Christmas tree (one even changed silver and gold, to tensil and balls). Over the years I've heard many things taught as truths from fractured scripture (they may have even been true) but I believe we do a dis-service to truth when we do this.
Ken, please do not be offended I believe we've all been guilty of doing this at some time or the other. Also I could be wrong, but when I read the whole verse it seems to fit with what I described above.
Quote If you read the entire verse however you will see that it is comparing Idols (which are made by hand) to God. While a Christmas tree is an Idol to some, I do not believe that was the intent of the writing when it was written. It was stating that the heathen cut a peice of wood, fashion it and cover it with silver and gold, But it just sits there till you pick it up and carry it somewhere else. They were idols because people put there trust in them God said do not fear them they are nothing.
I have never thought this verse was referring to Christmas trees either. I agree with what S said.The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Tree worship, common among the pagan Europeans, survived after their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian customs of decorating the house and barn with evergreens at the New Year to scare away the devil and of setting up a tree for the birds during Christmastime.”
Making wreaths of holly or other evergreens is another popular Christmas tradition. This too is deeply rooted in pagan worship. Ancient Romans used holly branches to adorn temples during Saturnalia, a seven-day midwinter festival devoted to Saturn, the god of agriculture. This pagan festival was especially noted for its unrestrained revelry and licentiousness.
The Christmas custom of kissing under a sprig of mistletoe (depicted here) may seem romantic to some, but it is a throwback to the Middle Ages. The Druids of ancient Britain believed that the mistletoe held magical powers; hence, it was used as protection against demons, spells, and other kinds of evil. In time, the superstition arose that kissing underneath the mistletoe would lead to marriage. This practice is still popular among some people around Christmastime.
Sorry, back to trees:
Ancient northern peoples feared that the long darkness of December would conquer the sun. As part of a magical rite, they decorated their homes with holly, ivy, mistletoe, laurels and other evergreens because these seemed to have supernatural ability to survive. Candles and fires were burned in an attempt to revive the dying sun. In parts of Europe the ceremonial burning of a log is still practiced. What is behind this practice that is now a Christmas custom? “It was apparently the fusion of two old customs—lights with evergreens—which gave us our modern Christmas-tree,” concludes Michael Harrison in The Story of Christmas.. In his book Ancient Italy and Modern Religion, Dr. Conway gives this description of that festival: “Ordinary life was by common consent turned topsy-turvy; people gave up serious occupations, and when they were not feasting at one another’s houses, they roamed about the streets calling to one another ‘Io Saturnalia’ just as we say ‘Merry Christmas’ . . . You were expected at this festival to make some present to all your friends; . . . you were thought to be a quite unsociable person if you were sober all through the Saturnalia!”
Rather than ‘Christianize’ such pagan events, the apostle Paul sets the right course for true Christians by asking: “What sharing does light have with darkness?” Then he admonishes: “‘Get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’”—2 Cor. 6:14-17.
The Christmas tree “has precious little to do with Christian celebration and a lot to do with the stubborn survival through the millennia of pagan rituals of winter light and rebirth.” (The Boston Herald) “Trees with trinkets hanging on them were part of the pagan festivals for centuries.”—Church Christmas Tab.
Holly was popular with the Celts “to keep the house goblins in order at winter solstice time. . . . It could deflect evil, help in the divination of dreams, defend a house from lightning.”—Beautiful British Columbia.
Mistletoe “came from the Druids in England who used it in strange worship relating to demonic and occult powers.”—Church Christmas Tab.
On December 25 “the Mithraists celebrated the birth of Mithra . . . There is absolutely no biblical authority for December 25 as having been the day of the Nativity.”—Isaac Asimov.
Gift giving was a feature of Saturnalia. “You were expected at this festival to make some present to all your friends.”—Ancient Italy and Modern Religion.
The star “atop the tree was worshiped in the East as a symbol of purity, goodness and peace 5,000 years before the nativity of Christ.”—United Church Herald.
The candle “does not come . . . from the Christian sanctuary. We took it from a much earlier altar, the Druid oak.”—United Church Herald.
Santa was stolen “from ancient German mythology: ‘Thor was an elderly man, jovial and friendly, of heavy build with a long white beard. He drove a chariot and was said to live in the Northland . . . His element was fire, his color red. The fireplace in every home was sacred to him, and he was said to come down into it through the chimney.”—United Church Herald.
ok, I'm trying to stick to the Christmas tree. Sorry.
Providing interesting insights into this matter, New York Newsday of December 22, 1992, quoted John Mosley, who wrote the book The Christmas Star: “‘The early church leaders didn’t celebrate Christmas in December specifically to celebrate the birth of Christ,’ [Mosley] said. ‘It was their way of dealing with the winter solstice,’ the turning point of winter, when the sun stops its drift to the south and heads north again, bringing new light.
“Evidence for this is seen in the symbols of Christmas, Mosley said. Most obvious is the use of green plants, which symbolize life in a time of darkness and cold. ‘The most obvious green plant is the Christmas tree,’ he said. ‘And the northern Europeans celebrated the solstice in the forest; they worshiped trees. So the Christmas tree is really a throwback to tree worship in prehistoric times.’
“Also, Mosley said, ‘What do you put on the trees? Lights. Light recalls the Sun and symbolizes the Sun. It’s for the rebirth of the Sun and the return of light after the solstice. The main things involved in solstice celebrations everywhere are light and green plants.
“Dec. 25, he added, ‘was also the original date of the winter solstice, and many of the things we do now, and which we think are relatively modern Christmas customs, really trace their origins to the solstice celebrations.”
As James Hastings states in Encyclopædia of Religion and Ethics: “Most of the Christmas customs now prevailing . . . are not genuine Christian customs, but heathen customs which have been absorbed or tolerated by the Church. . . . The Saturnalia in Rome provided the model for most of the merry customs of the Christmas time. This old Roman feast was celebrated on 17-24 December.”
Here's something interesting for Casey, who lives in the States.
In 1643, England’s Parliament even outlawed Christmas because of its pagan background, but later it was restored. In 1659, it was also outlawed in Massachusetts, but there too it was later restored. And U.S. Catholic reports: “Because Christians in the U.S. . . . associated Christmas with pagan customs, they didn’t celebrate Christmas in a big way until the mid-19th century.”The Encyclopedia Americana informs us: “The reason for establishing December 25 as Christmas is somewhat obscure, but it is usually held that the day was chosen to correspond to pagan festivals that took place around the time of the winter solstice, when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the ‘rebirth of the sun.’ . . . The Roman Saturnalia (a festival dedicated to Saturn, the god of agriculture, and to th
e renewed power of the sun), also took place at this time, and some Christmas customs are thought to be rooted in this ancient pagan celebration.”—(1977), Vol. 6, p. 666.The New Catholic Encyclopedia acknowledges: “The date of Christ’s birth is not known. The Gospels indicate neither the day nor the month . . . According to the hypothesis suggested by H. Usener . . . and accepted by most scholars today, the birth of Christ was assigned the date of the winter solstice (December 25 in the Julian calendar, January 6 in the Egyptian), because on this day, as the sun began its return to northern skies, the pagan devotees of Mithra celebrated the dies natalis Solis Invicti (birthday of the invincible sun). On Dec. 25, 274, Aurelian had proclaimed the sun-god principal patron of the empire and dedicated a temple to him in the Campus Martius. Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome.”—(1967), Vol. III, p. 656.
“In A.D. 601, Pope Gregory the First, known as Gregory the Great, issued an edict to his missionaries concerning the native beliefs and customs of the peoples he hoped to convert,” states a 1980's issue of Natural History magazine.
“Instead of trying to obliterate peoples’ customs and beliefs, the pope’s instructions were, use them. If a group of people worship a tree, rather than cut it down, consecrate it to Christ and allow them to continue their worship.” Calling this a “brilliant concept” and the “basic principle in Catholic missionary work,” the article continues: “Catholic holy days were purposely set at the time of native holy days. Christmas, for instance, was assigned the arbitrary date of December 25 because it corresponded to the midwinter celebration of many peoples. For the same reason, Saint John’s day was set at the summer solstice.”The Catholics got their Chritmas customs from ancient Rome, as British cardinal John Newman admitted that the Catholic Church did “transmute the very instruments and appendages of demon-worship to an evangelical use” and that much of his church's customs “are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption inot the Chruch.”–Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, 1878, chapter 8
Anyway, I couldn't really find what I was looking for. It's been a while since I've really looked into this subject.
david
Food Offered to Idols/Christmas trees/etc:
1 Corinthians 8
1 Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2 If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3 But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.
4 Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth — as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” — 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7 However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9 But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2006,10:58)
It's not just the tree that is an Idol but the presents under the tree are also gods to most people. Here is the States the “beautiful” Christmas tree and especially the presents come before Christ so much so the church had to remind people (keep Christ in your Christmas) but that won't change the heart.Seekingtruth I don't think I could ever think you were on the attack LOL! However the point is to me that God said: “Learn Not the way of the heathen”.
It's just like religion to do the opposite of what God says.It is a proven fact that Christ was not born in December. So why celebrate God's Son's birthday on a pagan holy day? To me I would be spitting in God's face.
There is no scripture saying to celebrate Christ's birthday, however if one wanted to give thanks for God's present why not celebrate Jesus on a different day other than a pagan god's birthday. There is something wrong with that.
Personally speaking I do not celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday, yet if we choose we can honour God for sending us the messiah on any day we choose.
We are told to beware of those who teach “do not touch, do not taste”. The truth is we are free to eat meat, honour God for sending his son etc, and we can do it any day we want, including December 25.
But I agree that we should never honour a lie. Santa is a big fat lie in a red suit and Jesus was most likely not born December 25. Also worshipping material things is wrong. These are the real issues because they reflect what is in the hearts of men.
But Dec 25 is not Satans day and if we choose to save people on the Sabbath or worship God and honour his son on December 25, then that is good.
TO THE PURE, ALL THINGS ARE PURE.
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2006,22:29) Personally speaking I do not celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday, yet if we choose we can honour God for sending us the messiah on any day we choose. We are told to beware of those who teach “do not touch, do not taste”. The truth is we are free to eat meat, honour God for sending his son etc, and we can do it any day we want, including December 25.
But I agree that we should never honour a lie. Santa is a big fat lie in a red suit and Jesus was most likely not born December 25. Also worshipping material things is wrong. These are the real issues because they reflect what is in the hearts of men.
But Dec 25 is not Satans day and if we choose to save people on the Sabbath or worship God and honour his son on December 25, then that is good.
TO THE PURE, ALL THINGS ARE PURE.
God said not to do as the heathen. I'm free to do anything I want even sin! People celebrate christmas for the wrong reason. There are more suicides at christmas then any other time of the year. To say Christ was born on Dec. 25 is a lie that has been hidden for years and years. Why was it hidden?Historians put Christ birth at September-October. So why celebrate it on Dec. 25th?
Santa and christmas go together don't they? Both are lies!
Quote Posted: Nov. 17 2006,23:07 QUOTE
Quote (t8 @ Nov. 17 2006,22:29)
Personally speaking I do not celebrate Christmas as Christ's birthday, yet if we choose we can honour God for sending us the messiah on any day we choose.We are told to beware of those who teach “do not touch, do not taste”. The truth is we are free to eat meat, honour God for sending his son etc, and we can do it any day we want, including December 25.
But I agree that we should never honour a lie. Santa is a big fat lie in a red suit and Jesus was most likely not born December 25. Also worshipping material things is wrong. These are the real issues because they reflect what is in the hearts of men.
But Dec 25 is not Satans day and if we choose to save people on the Sabbath or worship God and honour his son on December 25, then that is good.
TO THE PURE, ALL THINGS ARE PURE.
God said not to do as the heathen. I'm free to do anything I want even sin! People celebrate christmas for the wrong reason. There are more suicides at christmas then any other time of the year. To say Christ was born on Dec. 25 is a lie that has been hidden for years and years. Why was it hidden?
Historians put Christ birth at September-October. So why celebrate it on Dec. 25th?
Santa and christmas go together don't they? Both are lies!
An unenlightened conscience can lead to disaster, as God’s Word declares: “There is a way which seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.”—Prov. 14:12. RS.
So no person should jump to the conclusion that he is for a certainty doing right just because he is following the promptings of his conscience. If his conscience is untrained it may very well deceive him. Says the Bible: “The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly corrupt: who can know it?” Yes, a conscience may so thoroughly deceive us that it will excuse us for doing something corrupt. Then the conscience is corrupt. “To persons defiled and faithless nothing is clean, but both their minds and their consciences are defiled.”—Jer. 17:9, AS; Titus 1:15.
The apostle of Christ Jesus foretold that in these “last days” there would be men “who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron.” (1 Tim. 4:2) A branding iron leaves scarred, insensitive tissue; a conscience so seared has no feeling and cannot sense right or wrong. Such a conscience has ceased to be of value as an inward monitor.
So it is that a man may make up his mind that a certain evil course is the right one. When a person lets a defiled or seared conscience be his guide, the more he follows it the worse off he becomes! He becomes more hopeless as a wrongdoer. It becomes increasingly more difficult to straighten him out and to show him what is right.
When, then, can we safely subject ourselves to our conscience? Only after we have subjected our mind and conscience to the righteousness of God. Conscientiousness or sincerity is not enough. “I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.”—Rom. 10:2, 3.
God’s Word, has the power to discipline our conscience in righteousness if we are but willing to take in accurate knowledge of God’s standard of righteousness.
T8 keeps saying all things are pure to the pure. So, when the pure look at Satan, what do they see?
Perhaps, this scripture is being misapplied.david
Quote (david @ Nov. 18 2006,02:41) Satan is the “father” of the lie. (John 8:44)
There you have it. Is christmas of God or the other guy?Christmas manifest drunkness, materialism, and sucides!
“Most of the customs now associated with Christmas were not originally Christmas customs but rather were pre-Christian and non-Christian customs taken up by the Christian church. Saturnalia, a Roman feast celebrated in mid-December, provided the model for many of the merrymaking customs of Christmas. From this celebration, for example, were derived the elaborate feasting, the giving of gifts, and the burning of candles.”—The Encyclopedia Americana, 1959 edition, Vol. 6, p. 622.
“The members of the early church were recruited from among the pagans, and by the establishment of a festival at this time the energy and attention of the proselytes could be focused thus in a Christian festival.”—Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend, Vol. 1, p. 229.
“The celebration was not observed in the first centuries of the Christian church . . . In the 5th century the Western church ordered the feast to be celebrated on the day of the Mithraic rites of the birth of the sun and at the close of the Saturnalia, as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed. Among the German and Celtic tribes the winter solstice was considered an important point of the year and to commemorate the return of the sun they held their chief festival of yule, which, like other pagan celebrations, became adapted to Christmas.”—The Encyclopedia Americana, 1959 edition, Vol. 6, p. 622.
“The custom of decorating homes and churches with evergreens began in ancient times. The Romans exchanged green tree branches for good luck on the calends (first day) of January.” (The World Book Encyclopedia, 1973, Vol. 3, p. 415)
“There were, within the Church, criticisms of the observance on the grounds of its resembling pagan rites, of its being sun-worship (the Armenians called the Roman Church members idolaters as well, because of the identification of Christmas with the date of the birth of the sun), and, as late as 1644, during the Puritan ascendancy, the English Parliament forbade observance of the festival.”—Funk & Wagnalls Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend, Vol. 1, p. 229.
Pagan rites and superstitious legends—such are the sources of the Christmas tradition. They were shunned by the early Christians, who, according to “the World Book Encyclopedia,” “did not celebrate His birth because they considered celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”
This package of rituals and superstitions called Christmas is but another by-product of the famous dictum of Pope Gregory I to the missionary Augustine: “Tear down their idols but consecrate their temples.” Only the labels have been changed. The contents are as pagan as ever.
“King Tut never saw a Christmas tree, but he would have understood the tradition which traces back long before the first Christmas, says David Robson, Extension Educator, Horticulture with the Springfield Extension Center.
The Egyptians were part of a long line of cultures that treasured and worshipped evergreens. When the winter solstice arrive, they brought green date palm leaves into their homes to symbolize life's triumph over death.
The Romans celebrated the winter solstice with a fest called Saturnalia in honor of Saturnus, the god of agriculture. They decorated their houses with greens and lights and exchanged gifts. They gave coins for prosperity, pastries for happiness, and lamps to light one's journey through life.
Centuries ago in Great Britain, woods priests called Druids used evergreens during mysterious winter solstice rituals. The Druids used holly and mistletoe as symbols of eternal life, and place evergreen branches over doors to keep away evil spirits.”
— http://www.christmas-tree.com/where.html
“The exact origin of the Christmas tree seems under debate, but it is safe to say that this symbol evolved from Pagan tradition.
The Norse pagans and Celtic Druids revered evergreens as manifestations of deity because they did not “die” from year to year but stayed green and alive when other plants appeared dead and bare. The trees represented everlasting life and hope for the return of spring.
The druids decorated their trees with symbols of prosperity — a fruitful harvest, coins for wealth and various charms such as those for love or fertility. Scandinavian Pagans are thought to be the first to bring their decorated trees indoors as this provided a warm and welcoming environment for the native fairy folk and tree elementals to join in the festivities. The Saxons, a Germanic pagan tribe, were the first to place lights on the their trees in the form of candles. Ancient Romans decorated their homes with greens at the Festival of Saturnalia, their New Year and exchanged evergreen branches with friends as a sign of good luck.”
— http://www.fabulousfoods.com/holidays/xmas/treehistory.html
“It is said that tree worship was common among Germanic and Celtic tribesmen and the evergreen tree was also considered to be a symbol of “eternal life” by the ancient Egyptians and Chinese. The fir tree (Tannenbaum) was seen as a symbol of everlasting life because it was green all year round.”
— http://www.billanookps.vic.edu.au/German….ree.htm
While doing research, I also found that Rudoph was an advertising gimmick created in the 1930's and the reason Santa is now dressed in Red and white was because of a very clever advertising campaign by coca cola in the 30's as well.
david
David,
Saying something which may be similar to a pagan practice is therefore pagan, is the same as saying a practice similar to something christian is therefore christian. It is the reason for the practice which determines whether it is pagan or of God.Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Nov. 20 2006,14:56) David,
Saying something which may be similar to a pagan practice is therefore pagan, is the same as saying a practice similar to something christian is therefore christian. It is the reason for the practice which determines whether it is pagan or of God.Wm
The Trinty has it's origins in paganism yet many still believe it is “Christian”. We who know the truth do not adhere to the Trinty doctrine. Knowing the orgins of christmas, December 25 being the birthday of a pagan sun god is the same as pagan trinty. It's a lie! It is paganism covered with the false notion of christianty which they hid until now.The Trinty is a lie and so is Christmas. I won't have anything to do with either one. It is truth that sets you free. Those who keep christmas are in bondage. They have to celebrate christmas and if you don't think they have to just stop putting the presents under the tree
The pagan holiday is about MONEY and not Christ. I'm sure that Christ would want us to spend our money on the poor rather than buying a present in Jesus' name and putting it under a tree which is pagan.
I know people who have not finished paying for last christmas and now have to get into even more debt to put presents under the pagan tree.
Mar 7:7 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men.
Mar 7:8 Ye leave the commandment of God, and hold fast the tradition of men.Quote David,
Saying something which may be similar to a pagan practice is therefore pagan, is the same as saying a practice similar to something christian is therefore christian. It is the reason for the practice which determines whether it is pagan or of God.Seeking truth, mainly what I am saying is that God saw first hand where these things originated. It's not something that “looks” like a pagan practice. Its something that originated from pagan practices and is practiced today because Christians who had apostasized decided that paganism was suddenly ok, along with the trinity, the teaching of hellfire, military service, etc.
You say that:
Quote It is the reason for the practice which determines whether it is pagan or of God.
Should we not separate ourselves from paganism? (2 cor 7:16)
Then why borrow the pagan's practices and customs and give them a Christian name?I am curious to know what people think of this:
I'm curious to know what people think of this:
“Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells.”––Wiccan High Priestess Selena Fox
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47345
Many keep wrongly claiming or believing that it just so happens that pagans celebrate on the same day that Christians celebrate, that Christians coincidentally share this date with pagans.
But the truth is, it has always been a special date for pagans. The customs associated with Christmas are those that have always been associated with this pagan holiday.
Changing the name doesn't hide that fact very well.
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