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Hi P,
Have you noticed that your daughter has life in herself and has a mind and will of her own yet?Sons and daughters do.
The Son of God had to obey God and agree to come to save our foolish wicked butts.
It cost him his life.
Hi Pheonix,
No, you know what I believe (if you have been following me in previous posts). I just didn't clarify myself very well in this post. What I mean by a “mini-me” in this post is not like you and your daughter. In that regard, yes, Jesus is like his Father. What I was trying to distinguish between is the idea that God has “equal” parts of himself (that are really HIM, and NOT a representative.) Does this make more sense?
Nick wrote:
The Son of God had to obey God and agree to come to save our foolish wicked butts.
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“….agree to come….”
Where in scripture does it tell us that the pre-existent Son “agreed to come” to earth?Hi Not 3
We know from several places that he was sent.
Phil 2 shows it was by his choice.
“
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.”
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 02 2007,18:50) Hi P,
Have you noticed that your daughter has life in herself and has a mind and will of her own yet?Sons and daughters do.
The Son of God had to obey God and agree to come to save our foolish wicked butts.
It cost him his life.
Too right you are about the mind and will of her own.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,18:52) Hi Pheonix, No, you know what I believe (if you have been following me in previous posts). I just didn't clarify myself very well in this post. What I mean by a “mini-me” in this post is not like you and your daughter. In that regard, yes, Jesus is like his Father. What I was trying to distinguish between is the idea that God has “equal” parts of himself (that are really HIM, and NOT a representative.) Does this make more sense?
Yes now it does. I think.WorshipingJesus, Hi again, just a note to say why I have used “chosenone” as a username. It is not for reason that I believe I am someone special, I chose this name because of the very opposite, I am very common, no special talents, and not too wise. Only by the grace of God am I saved, scripture says,”For in grace, through faith, are you saved (through His faith Eph.3:13), and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we…(Eph.2:8-10).
Now regarding the various translations, it matters not because 100's of scholares agree on the meaning of certain scripture, we have literally thousands in various denominations of christian churches, and all denominations have 100's of pastors and leaders of these denominations agreeing on doctrine differently. What really matters is what God, by devine inspiration, directed to be His written word. Different versions are not really translations, they are interpetations, human reasoning on what Gods words are saying. Being human, they all (us included) have bias's. To get the best translation, is to have a literal translation, word by word, same sentence structure, parallel to the original Greek / Hebrew words. And even this is prone to some error, being done by humans, but in this way it eliminates the bias's of the translaters, because they are not interpeting Gods words, just changing languages. Please have a look at the work done by the “Concordant Publishing Concern”, http://www.concordant.org, they use this method of tranlation, much more than I have explained, and let me know what you think of thier work, it started in 1909.
Just think WJ, if you and I were writing a bible, trying to make it “easier to understand”, you and I with our different understanding would surely have two very different versions.
Hope I am not offending you in any way, we are brothers in Christ, just have different views of what scripture is saying. “But now we see dimmley, as through a smoked glass, but then we will see brightly”.Blessings.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,08:11) Nick – can you please show me this belief system in other places besides this worn-out proof text?
Hi not3,
How about addressing it first rather than denigrating it?Hi not 3,
He was not just sent.
He came to do the will of God.Ps 40
7Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
Heb 10
7Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.8Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God.Hi,
Yes, I believe the KJV to be a mistranslation in John 17:11. Why? Because we have older manuscripts dating to 1000 years prior to the textus receptus and we have the witness of the early church writings vaildating the other texts.
If you are a KJV purist who thinks the KJV as a translation is inspired then not much more can be said. How can you debate a blind belief. Yes its blind or else show me chapter and verse that says the KJV is inspired and the only true scripture. I know for a fact it isn't since it uses the masoretic text.
If you are not then look it up and see for yourself the documentary evidence.
Even if the KJV verse was correct (which I don't believe it is) look at all the other evidence listed, that was only one verse.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2007,18:56) Hi kenrch,
Jn 17
” 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Mark 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.Jesus acted in the name and authority and power of the Father.
He was as God among men from the Jordan.
He protected the sheep and gurded the flock for God.
So that all the chosen may be one with God in Christ.
AMEN NICK!Jesus had the full Spirit of God, without measure. Does that make Jesus Jehovah in flesh? John the baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. Jesus born of the Spirit had the fullness of the Spirit. John did the work of Elijah but was John. Jesus did the work of Jehovah but was Jesus. We do the work of Jesus, through the Holy Spirit who has Jesus the head, but we are ourselves children of God.
There is GOD (Jehovah) then God, the Son of God, Jehovah in Jesus. Not the Father not equal to the Father. Jesus is LORD supreme in authority. Compared to us and all creation He IS God. But to the Father He is the SON.
To us first there is Jesus THROUGH whom we are saved.
Then above Jesus there is the Father Jehovah THROUGH whom Jesus was born and did the Father's work.Jehovah, Word, creation
Father, Mother, children
Jehovah, Jesus, born again “new creation”Jehovah first
Then the Word
Jesus first
Then the born againWho is the Word now?
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: “who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead”;[again HE is the beginning] that in all things he might have the preeminence.
HE is our head. He is above and will always be above all creation being FIRST born from the dead.
But still the Father is as before (when He was the Word) above Him.Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Nothing has changed. The Father gave to Jesus who gives to His angel who gave to John.
The Father spoke the Word carried out the Father's command.
The Father gave a Revelation to Jesus, formly the Word.The only thing that has changed is a NEW CREATION of flesh.
The Word, now Jesus, is still over the creation and the Father is still over the (Word) Jesus.
1Co 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
There are no ifs, ands, or buts.
Ascending:
Woman submits to man
Man submits to Christ
Christ submits to the Father Who is GOD!This is the order of things.
Quote (chosenone @ April 02 2007,08:39) WorshipingJesus, Hi again, just a note to say why I have used “chosenone” as a username. It is not for reason that I believe I am someone special, I chose this name because of the very opposite, I am very common, no special talents, and not too wise. Only by the grace of God am I saved, scripture says,”For in grace, through faith, are you saved (through His faith Eph.3:13), and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present, not of works, lest anyone should be boasting. For His achievement are we…(Eph.2:8-10).
Now regarding the various translations, it matters not because 100's of scholares agree on the meaning of certain scripture, we have literally thousands in various denominations of christian churches, and all denominations have 100's of pastors and leaders of these denominations agreeing on doctrine differently. What really matters is what God, by devine inspiration, directed to be His written word. Different versions are not really translations, they are interpetations, human reasoning on what Gods words are saying. Being human, they all (us included) have bias's. To get the best translation, is to have a literal translation, word by word, same sentence structure, parallel to the original Greek / Hebrew words. And even this is prone to some error, being done by humans, but in this way it eliminates the bias's of the translaters, because they are not interpeting Gods words, just changing languages. Please have a look at the work done by the “Concordant Publishing Concern”, http://www.concordant.org, they use this method of tranlation, much more than I have explained, and let me know what you think of thier work, it started in 1909.
Just think WJ, if you and I were writing a bible, trying to make it “easier to understand”, you and I with our different understanding would surely have two very different versions.
Hope I am not offending you in any way, we are brothers in Christ, just have different views of what scripture is saying. “But now we see dimmley, as through a smoked glass, but then we will see brightly”.Blessings.
chosenoneFirst of all I wasnt picking at your name. I had read your previous explanation of the name.
It was just a pun. Cute huh?
OK! I am confused.
You say…
Quote Now regarding the various translations, it matters not because 100's of scholares agree on the meaning of certain scripture, we have literally thousands in various denominations of christian churches, and all denominations have 100's of pastors and leaders of these denominations agreeing on doctrine differently. What really matters is what God, by devine inspiration, directed to be His written word.
Ok. But who makes the choice as to the divine inspiration? You or me?Are we qualified Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars?
So we have to trust the the Holy Spirit and the writings that we have.
But what I am confused about is why you would trade the work of 100s of qualified scholars for the work of “Concordant Publishing Concern”?
Its fine to use this tool but if I find it contradicts all the other scholars then I will probably accept the scholars over them.
Thats all I am saying. We must be led by the Spirit and the Spirit will guide us into all truth.
The scriptures are here for our benifit to give us a guidline.
Obviously we all will not agree, neither did the transaltors in all points.
You say…
Quote Please have a look at the work done by the “Concordant Publishing Concern”, http://www.concordant.org, they use this method of tranlation, much more than I have explained, and let me know what you think of thier work, it started in 1909 I have looked, and its fine, I think? But I also have the “Interlinear Bible” by 'Sovereign Grace Publishers'.
It is a transliteration of the Greek and Hebrew text also.
Blessings.
WorshipingJesus.
Thanks for the repy, I totally agree with your statement “We must be led by the Spirit and the Spirit will guide us into all truth.”
Thanks for the debating this subject, I'll look forward to seeing yours and others comments in “Heaven Net”.Blessings.
Nick wrote re: Philippians 2:6:
How about addressing it first rather than denigrating it?
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Because I asked you first! Ha! It's so easy to answer a question by posing another…..I've noticed this abot you!
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,19:00) Nick wrote re: Philippians 2:6: How about addressing it first rather than denigrating it?
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Because I asked you first! Ha! It's so easy to answer a question by posing another…..I've noticed this abot you!
Hi not 3,
Should we remove Phil 2 from scripture?
Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
1Jn 4
“1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.2Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. “
The owner of the vineyard sent his son.
God loved the Son.
God sent his beloved Son.
Unless men also love the son they will perish.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 02 2007,19:00) Nick wrote re: Philippians 2:6: How about addressing it first rather than denigrating it?
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Because I asked you first! Ha! It's so easy to answer a question by posing another…..I've noticed this abot you!
Hi not3,
We are all students here and none is an oracle of truth. So it is often more productive to ask questions than to give “answers”. Questions are often based on false presumptions so understanding why we ask questions can reveal deeper things about our mindset too.Nick you wrote:
The Son of God had to obey God and agree to come to save our foolish wicked butts.
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Again, I ask you, where in scripture does it say that the pre-existent Son “agreed to come to earth….?”
While it is true that God sent his Son, this in no way proves the above statement.
Yes, of course asking questions are the way we learn. No one has all the answers (above all, not me). However, when you are pressed, giving answers is ten times harding than asking questions. We need to know what we believe and why. This idea that you have about a pre-exisiting “monogenous” Son is a damaging theory, I believe, on many levels. Leaning on Philippians 2 is what most folks do who share your view. When pressed to find this truth in the tenor of the whole NT, it is doubtful that you will be able to prove it without using deductions.
You and I have very similiar beliefs. Pre-existence is where we differ. I'm only trying to understand exactly what scriptural proof you are leaning on to keep your belief. Thanks, Nick.
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