First born of creation

Participant

Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 31 2007,15:13)

I don't see why the Son would not have the same name as the Father. If your name is Smith then your Son's name is Smith. If someone calls out Smith both will answer. Both have the same name although one being Greater than the other “Honor your Father and mother”.

John 17:11
11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. “Holy Father, keep them in YOUR NAME, which YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, that they may be one, even as we are one.”

Says it all for me and clears that scripture up for me. I always wondered about ” keep them in your name, which you have given me” never did understand that. Keep them in the Father's name which you have given me?

Is the Father's name Jesus? NO! What then? Yahweh Of course that is the Father's name and His Son's name. We also are kept in that Name “Yahweh” being also His children. Thanks!!

By what authority will we judge angels?

1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

In who's Name? The Son's Name? The Son's Name is the same as the Father's just as your son has your name.

Thanks MS,

Ken

Kenrch

Yeshua means “YHWH” is salvation.

Check these scriptures out.

Zech 14:
1 Behold, the day of the LORD (YHWH) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (YHWH) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (YHWH), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be ONE LORD (YHWH), and his name one.

Compare vrs 5 with…

Luke 21:
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto….

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

MK 8:38
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

This was the unambiguous point that Is 1:18 was making concerning Heb 1:10 and Ps 102.

YHWH in the Old testament may be referring to The LORD Yeshua or The LORD Father.

Blessings

March 31, 2007 at 7:34 pm#46918

Participant

Hi W,
Sound Doctrine is not built on supposed ambiguities.
Give us scriptural proofs for your theories please if you expect a hearing.

March 31, 2007 at 7:52 pm#46920

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,20:34)

Hi W,
Sound Doctrine is not built on supposed ambiguities.
Give us scriptural proofs for your theories please if you expect a hearing.

Why dont you give me a scripture that says Jesus was born again?

March 31, 2007 at 7:55 pm#46921

Morning Star

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Mar. 31 2007,19:30)

MS – it will take me some time to digest all that you have given as evidence of your faith, and understanding about the name of God, and his Son. My hubby and I have a weekend off together, so I will be posting my response sometime next week. I know that by then we will have moved on to another topic, but I wanted to acknowledge your massive effort to prove your point. I don't agree with you, but as I read your evidence, I may have questions. Thanks for this great thread! Have a great weekend everyone!

Thank you,

I appreciate hearing others at least “testing” this view. It is the view expressed by the majority of the early Christians. I believe man fell away from these truths as the church became a hybrid with the state and fell into the hands of pagans.

To me doctrines or understanding them correctly don't save anyone. I do however, feel truth is important and sound doctrine is important.

In my mind Christianity is summed up by these words of Christ.

John 15
1″I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2Every branch of mine that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3Already you are clean because of the word that I have spoken to you. 4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 5I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned. 7If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit and so prove to be my disciples. 9As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Abide in my love. 10If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love. 11These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

12″This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that someone lays down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command you. 15No longer do I call you servants,[a] for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. 17These things I command you, so that you will love one another.

If a Christian truly follows these words of their master and has an obediant love faith relationship with Christ, then by all means I will call him a brother.

Doctrine is important, truth is important, however, I feel the world has been swept away by “the delusion” and I strongly believe that the principalities and powers are hard at work.

If a believer abides in these words of Christ, or rather abides in Christ as described in his words, then doctrine can be discussed and tested and refined amongst us bretheren who are in the true vine.

March 31, 2007 at 8:56 pm#46931

chosenone

Participant

Quote (ruko @ Sep. 08 2005,18:04)

My Bible says Jesus was the first born of every creature. Doesn't this mean Jesus was created? Or am I missing something?

Hi ruco, no, you are not missing anything, the scriptures are correct. See also Rev.3:14…and Gods creative Original. What is an “original”, is it not the first?

Blessings.

March 31, 2007 at 9:41 pm#46943

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ Mar. 31 2007,21:56)

Quote (ruko @ Sep. 08 2005,18:04)

My Bible says Jesus was the first born of every creature. Doesn't this mean Jesus was created? Or am I missing something?

Hi ruco, no, you are not missing anything, the scriptures are correct. See also Rev.3:14…and Gods creative Original. What is an “original”, is it not the first?

Blessings.

Chosenone

If Jesus was “created” then the scriptures would be broken.

Jn 1:1
All things were made by “him”; and without “him” was not any thing made that was made.

Since we know he didnt make himself, then we know he is not of the created order. He is the Creator not the creature.

Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “beginning” of the creation of God;

The Greek word for “Beginning” is 'arche', which means;

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

a) of angels and demons

As you can see it means he is the origen of all things, that by which everything begins

Some translations render it as follows…

Rev 3:14

NLT
Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen-the faithful and true witness, the “rule”* of God's creation:

NIV
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the “ruler” of God's creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other!

YLT
And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness — the faithful and true — the “chief” of the creation of God;

HNV
“To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: “The Amein, the Faithful and True Witness, the “Head” of God's creation, says these things:

Jesus truly is the “source” of all things. Because it was by him “ALL” things were created and by him all things consist.

Col 1:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

March 31, 2007 at 9:50 pm#46944

Participant

Hi W,
The fact that the Son of God was used by God in creating doesn't make him the Source of all things.
That source is God.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 2:4
These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens
Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

You often read “God” as the Father.
Are these scriptures not applicable?

March 31, 2007 at 10:26 pm#46945

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,22:50)

You often read “God” as the Father.
Are these scriptures not applicable?

As you full well know NH.

Gen 1:1
“In the beginning “God” ''Elohiym” (plural) created…”

Jn 1:1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Now if all things were made “by him” or even through him as you like, and he was not the source or substance by which all things were created, then what role or part did he play in the creation?

Was he an empty shell?

Also I find it interesting that you use the following scripture for your post.

Isa 45:8
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

So then by your interpretation of Isa 45:8 Yeshua didnt even have a part in the creation.

1. He says “God Himself” (alone) formed the earth and made it

2. He says I am the Lord, and there is none else.

So you have two problems here, one is that Jesus had nothing to do with creation. Two he should not be called Lord and Master because there is none else.

Unless of course you believe what the scriptures say.

Jesus is the Word/God that was with God/Father and that laid the foundations of the earth.

Heb 1:10
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

Not to mention, how can he not be the source, when “by him” all things consist?

But of course he was just an “empty shell”.

What exactly was the Word to you before the creation?

I think I already know the answer to that question.

March 31, 2007 at 10:54 pm#46946

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,22:50)

You often read “God” as the Father.
Are these scriptures not applicable?

Before flesh was anything BORN? That the WORD was Jehovah's (YHWH) first being and that only the word was directly “created” by Jehovah that made the Word special (the SON) is not a problem. The WORD was created Rev. 3:14. The beginning the definition means beginning does it not. HE (the WORD) created all things FOR Jehovah. By Him and through Him all was done FOR Jehovah.

The WORD was NOT born until He Became Flesh. This is why Jehovah through the Word created flesh. Jehovah wants a “NEW CREATION” one that is BORN and NOT created as His other Sons. Scriptures say that we will be above the other sons (angels). Is there any wonder that Satan wants to destroy us!

Jehovah gave the command the Word created. The beginning of the creation of GOD, the WORD is the beginning of this NEW CREATION that He would still be the First. First of the Creation and First of the New Creation; The born children of God.

If you were an angel as Satan and you knew that Jehovah was going to create born children who would be above you AND that the Word was to be chosen above them as well. Satan lost it! PRIDE was the culprit. He instilled that pride in other angels who refused submission. These are the angels we will judge. They are the enemy.

March 31, 2007 at 11:16 pm#46949

Participant

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name **those whom** thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

The KJV states this scripture a little different. I don't see the scripture saying:

ASV~ “keep them in thy name *which thou hast given me*”

KJV~ keep through thine own name **those whom** thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

OH! OH! New ball game!!! 🙂

Here we go! Which translation is correct?

Joh 17:11

(ASV) And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name *which thou hast given me*, that they may be one, even as we are.

(CEV) Holy Father, I am no longer in the world. I am coming to you, but my followers are still in the world. So keep them safe by the power of *the name that you have given me*. Then they will be one with each other, just as you and I are one.

(DRB) And now I am not in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name *”whom” thou hast given me*: that they may be one, as we also are.

(ESV) And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, *which you have given me*, that they may be one, even as we are one.

(GNB) And now I am coming to you; I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world. Holy Father! Keep them safe by the power of your name, *the name you gave me*, so that they may be one just as you and I are one.

(GW) I won't be in the world much longer, but they are in the world, and I'm coming back to you. Holy Father, keep them safe by the power of your name, *the name that you gave me*, so that their unity may be like ours.

(KJV) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those *”whom” thou hast given me*, that they may be one, as we are.

(KJVR) And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

(LITV) And no longer am I in the world, yet these are in the world; and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, those *”whom” You gave to Me*, that they may be one as We are.

(MKJV) And now I am in the world no longer, but these are in the world, and I come to You, Holy Father. Keep them in Your name, those *”whom” You have given Me*, so that they may be one as We are.

(MSG) For I'm no longer going to be visible in the world; They'll continue in the world While I return to you. Holy Father, guard them as they pursue this life That you conferred as a gift through me, So they can be one heart and mind

I've got to stay with the KJV.

March 31, 2007 at 11:17 pm#46950

Participant

Hi W,
Isa 45:8
For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

God is one.
God is the creator.
God uses instruments.
Those instruments do not become God by being used.

March 31, 2007 at 11:29 pm#46951

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 01 2007,00:17)

God is one.
God is the creator.
God uses instruments.
Those instruments do not become God by being used.

Nick is right! The KJV states those WHOM thou has given me.

NOT “Thy name WHICH thou has given me”

Very tricky!!

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we

Joh 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

April 1, 2007 at 1:25 am#46953

chosenone

Participant

There are many versions of the bible, and there are translation errors in all. It helps little to quote the same sentence in various versions, as it only adds to the confusion. I find it most helpfull to use the “Interlinear Scripture Analyser”. This is a study of the scriptures taken from the original Greek and Hebrew scrolls. The words and sentence structure are translated literally to English in parallel to the Greek/Hebrew words and sentence order. Although no translation is without error, this method reduces the bias of the translater/s and reduces the errors of other translations. This method used by the ISA can be viewed on the web and/or downloaded for personal use free of charge.
http://www.scripture4all.org . Here is an example of John1:1 correctly translated: In the begining was the word and the word was toward God, and God was the word. Notice the transposition of the last words (God was the word) in most other versions. The word “word” is just that, a means of communication…the spoken word, the written word, not another name for Jesus. This method of translation is used in the “Concordant Literal New Testament” and is the most accurate in my opinion.

April 1, 2007 at 5:51 am#46971

Participant

Quote (chosenone @ April 01 2007,02:25)

chosenone

You say…

Quote

There is no confusion here. The other versions help to bring out the true meaning of a word, by comparing the various shades of meaning a word can have.

What I was trying to show you also is that the Greek for “Beginning” is 'arche',

Which means;

1) beginning, origin

2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader

3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause

4) the extremity of a thing

a) of the corners of a sail

5) the first place, principality, rule, magistracy

a) of angels and demons

The scripture analyzer transliteration you speak of renders Rev 3:14 as…

“And to-the Messenger of-the in Laodicea out called write the-yet is-saying the amen the witness the believing and true the “ORIGINal” of-the creation of-the God”.

The small “al” is added to the transliteration.

So the meaning of the word begining here in no way implies that the Word had a beginning.

And to say that the Word had a beginning when God “Spoke” it into being would imply God had nothing to say from Eternity before the Word was created.

If he had nothing to say, then he had no thoughts or even feelings. Basically, God without the Word would be dead.

Again if the word “beginning” means the Word/Yeshua was created then the Alpha and Omega had a beginning and an end also.

Rev 1:8
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning ( 'arche') and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 21:6
And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning ('arche') and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Rev 22:13
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning ('arche') and the end, the first and the last. (Notice the First and the Last, all things starts with him and all things end with him)

Does the Father or Jesus have an end?

So if this same word means beginning as you say then he must have an end.

Also if “begining” in Rev 3:14 means the “Word” was created or born. Then something as important as this should be found in scripture somewhere else.

However there is not a hint anywhere that the “Word” had a beginning.

You say…

Quote

http://www.scripture4all.org . Here is an example of John1:1 correctly translated: In the begining was the word and the word was toward God, and God was the word.

Tell me how this…

Jn 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Differs from this…

Jn 1:1
In the begining was the word and the word was toward God, and God was the word.

If the Word was toward God and God was the Word.

How is that different than the Word was with and the word was God.

Every major translation with any credibility at all translates it the same as the KJV.

You say…

Quote

Notice the transposition of the last words (God was the word) in most other versions. The word “word” is just that, a means of communication…the spoken word, the written word, not another name for Jesus. This method of translation is used in the “Concordant Literal New Testament” and is the most accurate in my opinion

So By this you mean God is a means of communication or the Spoken word or the written word?

The Word was God, or God was the Word. Whats the difference.

So when it says “God was the Word (saying)” it means God (saying) was towards himself?

Friend, how do you explain Jn 1:3 and 14 then, which shows that “He” Created all things, and “He” was manifest in the flesh?

How do you explain the many words of Jesus stating his pre-existance with the Father?

Jn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

If he didnt exist with the Father as a person with a will then how was he sent?

Jn 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which “I had with thee” before the world was.

And what about…

Col 1:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Dont you think that if Yeshua that is spoken of here by Paul was a “saying” then he would have hinted at it somewhere?

Paul said he was in the “Morphe” form of God and humbled himself taking on the likeness of sinfull flesh and was obedient to the death of the cross.

This ties in very well with Jn 1:14 and the Word/God was manifest in the flesh…

Blessings

April 1, 2007 at 6:54 am#46982

chosenone

Participant

Hi WJ. Why all the different versions? Surely Gods words were carefully chosen, why does mankind have to explain it differently, usually in a way thats not what He intended. The Adversary is at work changing Gods words to confuse.

Blessings.

April 1, 2007 at 2:44 pm#47005

Participant

Ok so which Translation is correct?

Clearly the translations do not agree, at least the way I see it.

Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we

Joh 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.

One translation says the Father gave Jesus the same name.

The other (KJV) says nothing about Jesus' name except that they are one as we should be.

“thine own name those WHOM thou hast given me”,

“keep them in thy name WHICH THOU HAS GIVEN ME”

Clearly two different meanings. If we do not compare the translations then how are we to find the LIE of Satan!

Compared to “The LORD is one” which translation is correct?

The commentary and explanation that MS gave fell apart in this simple truth of John 17:11.

Of Course I don't believe that MS knew (or even believes it now) that what was taught is in error. But to me it is in error looking at it in the light of the KJV and other translations as well.

No one is perfect that's why we have the WORD OF TRUTH and the Holy Spirit which pointed this out to me. I accept the mistake I made BUT rejoice in the truth I received :-)! Amen!!

IF I mislead anyone I apologize believe me it was not intentional.

IHN,

Ken

April 1, 2007 at 5:56 pm#47007

Participant

Hi kenrch,
Jn 17
” 9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
John 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Mark 9:37
Whosoever shall receive one of such children in my name, receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me, receiveth not me, but him that sent me.

Jesus acted in the name and authority and power of the Father.
He was as God among men from the Jordan.
He protected the sheep and gurded the flock for God.
So that all the chosen may be one with God in Christ.

April 2, 2007 at 5:55 am#47031