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Hi kenrch,
If he had not been anointed with the Spirit of God in the Jordan we would never have heard of him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,04:03) Hi kenrch,
If he had not been anointed with the Spirit of God in the Jordan we would never have heard of him.
Nick I said I agree with you. But Jesus did not need to be born again as you and I were. I agree He received Power from Jehovah after His Baptism. But He was not born again because he had no sin. End of discussion, ok?If the father is named YWVH
and the son has his name, YWVH
then even trinititarians would acknowledge two “persons” bearing the name YWVH
Two YHVHs:
(Not two almighty eternal Gods, rather two beings with the title YHVH. The Father gave the son that title. YHVH is not a name but a title. If God has a personal name, like you or I, then what elder would have gave it to him? It is a title.)
Zechariah 1
1Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. 2And the LORD said to Satan, “The LORD rebuke you, O Satan! The LORD who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?” 3Now Joshua was standing before the angel, clothed with filthy garments. 4And the angel said to those who were standing before him, “Remove the filthy garments from him.” And to him he said, “Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you, and I will clothe you with pure vestments.” 5And I said, “Let them put a clean turban on his head.” So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD was standing by.If you carefully read these you will see that both the Father and the angel of the Lord are being named YWVH. (realizing LORD = YHVH and Lord of Hosts = YHVH Sabaoth)
The setting is a courtroom: the accuser is Satan, and the accused is Joshua the high priest, son of Jehozadak, who represents the people of God. Joshua is ministering before the Lord, but he is wearing extremely filthy clothes. The angel of the Lord is also present, representing Yahweh Sabaoth, the Lord of Hosts, the Lord of the armies of heaven and earth, the One in control of all things. In this court, the angel of the Lord is both advocate and judge.
Zechariah 3:2 mentions two Yahwehs. The angel of the Lord is called Yahweh as well as Yahweh Sabaoth, indicating two persons with the title YHVH.
Malachi 3
1″Behold, I send my messenger and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the LORD of hosts.This describes how John the baptist was going to prepare the way for the second YHVH, the angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord is the messenger of the covenant whom Israel has delighted in. HE IS COMING it declares! The angel who bears the name of the Father, the unigue Son of God distinct from any other. As is demonstrated by the two verses below:
[Exod 23.20-21] Behold, I [YHWH] send an angel in front of you, to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Be attentive to him and listen to his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression; for my Name is in him.
John 17:11
11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.THE ANGEL OBJECTION OF HEBREWS
What is hebrews saying? Well first of all angel can be simply mean messenger, however, yes there are angels who are a distinct order of creation or for lack of better words “race or species”.
However, Jesus is unique from them as the only begotten. (I mean only begotten from the beginning not his incarnation). Jesus is of the nature and substance of God actually coming from him (begotten) as the passing of the flame from one candle to another. The Son is in the express image of the person of the Father—Christ is the Only Begotten Son and thus above the angels.
Lets see how early christians understood Hebrews 1-2
Odes, The Anchor Bible Dictionary states:
The date of the Odes has caused considerable interest. H.J. Drivers contends that they are as late as the 3d century. L. Abramowski places them in the latter half of the 2d century. B. McNeil argued that they are contemporaneous with 4 Ezra, the Shepherd of Hermas, Polycarp, and Valentinus (ca. 100 C.E.). Most scholars date them sometime around the middle of the 2d century, but if they are heavily influenced by Jewish apocalyptic thought and especially the ideas in the Dead Sea Scrolls, a date long after 100 is unlikely. H. Chadwick, Emerton, Charlesworth, and many other scholars, are convinced that they must not be labeled “gnostic,” and therefore should not be dated to the late 2d or 3d century. (p. 114, vol. 6, “Solomon, Odes of”)
Let's take a closer look at one of the hymns (Ode 36) which is written from the viewpoint of the Messiah:ODE 36
I rested on the Spirit of the Lord, and She lifted me up to heaven;
And caused me to stand on my feet in the Lord's high place, before His perfection and His glory, where I continued glorifying Him by the composition of His Odes.
The Spirit brought me forth before the Lord's face, and because I was the Son of Man, I was named the Light, the Son of God;
Because I was the most glorified among the glorious ones, and the greatest among the great ones.
For according to the greatness of the Most High, so She [the Spirit of the Lord] made me; and according to His newness He renewed me.
And He anointed me with His perfection; and I became one of those who are near Him.
And my mouth was opened like a cloud of dew, and my heart gushed forth like a gusher of righteousness.
And my approach was in peace, and I was established in the Spirit of Providence.
Hallelujah. (Odes of Solomon)Hebrews 2
14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. 16For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.This describes that Jesus had to become like us to help us and gives the reasons for it. It clarifies that Jesus doesn't help the angels contrasting why his nature had to change. From a nature that potientially could help an angel to that of a nature to helping man. Think about that.
Hebrews 1
8But of the Son he says,“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”So Jesus was anointed above his companions. MMMM
Ponder these scriptures, brothers.
Concerning the Shema:
“Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
This is an excerpt from a teacher of the “Church of God”. I am not supporting their doctrinal teachings only highlighting and interpretation alternative to the traditional understanding of the shema. http://livingtheway.org/shema.html
Scripture indicates there are two Yahwehs, yet the Shema says there is only one. Deuteronomy 6:4 has been used as a rock solid statement about God’s existence as a single entity.
The question I’d like to address at this point is not about the nature of God, but rather about the nature of this verse! I’d like to take us through a brief word study to see if we might grasp a fuller meaning from this verse, perhaps closer to what Moses had in mind originally.
Here is the Shema, in its context:
Deuteronomy 6:1-5 (NKJV):
1 “Now this is the commandment, and these are the statutes and judgments which the LORD your God has commanded to teach you, that you may observe them in the land which you are crossing over to possess,
2 “that you may fear the LORD your God, to keep all His statutes and His commandments which I command you, you and your son and your grandson, all the days of your life, and that your days may be prolonged.
3 “Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you, and that you may multiply greatly as the LORD God of your fathers has promised you — ‘a land flowing with milk and honey.’
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!
5 “You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.”We want to pay close attention to verse 4: KJV says, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD,” or “Yahweh our El is one Yahweh.” NKJV says, “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!”
The first thing to notice is that the word “hear” — shema in the Hebrew — does not simply mean the faculty of auditory input. The way this word is being used here is in the imperative sense. That is, rather than simply hearing passively, Moses is imploring the people to listen, actively! The sense is to listen with the intent of obeying.
Notice verse 3, which uses the same word, shema. “Therefore hear, O Israel, and be careful to observe it, that it may be well with you.” This implies active involvement in listening, coupled with observing the commandment, statutes and judgments. Shema in verse 4 means the same thing.
Let’s compare how verse 4 reads in other translations:
Deut 6:4 (NASB):
4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!Deut 6:4 (NIV):
4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.Deut 6:4 (Revised English Bible):
4 “Hear, Israel: the LORD is our God, the LORD our one God;Deut 6:4 (The Tanakh, the Jewish Publication Society translation):
4 “Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.Deut. 6:4 (NRSV):
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD is our God, the LORD alone.”Compare this to the KJV for verse 4: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD”!
Notice how the word “is” occurs in different places in these two translations, creating a different meaning. Why should there be any question? If the Hebrew was plain, we would know where this verb would go.
Unfortunately, the Hebrew is not plain at this point. In fact, there is no verb “is” in this sentence at all. The only verb is “hear.” The translators have supplied the verb “is” according to what they thought the verse meant. As a result, there seems to be some disagreement as to whether this verse is telling us that God is one Yahweh, or that Yahweh is our only God!
Various translators have supplied the verb “is” in these two spots in the various translations. But I’d like to explore the possibility that the verb “is” might not belong in this verse at all!
Let’s look at this verse without the verb “is” and see what it looks like.
KJV: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God one LORD”
NRSV and the Tanakh: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD alone.”
The first version makes no grammatical sense without the “is.” The second one, however, does show grammatical sense — “The LORD our God, the LORD alone.”
Look at the word “is” in the Interlinear. It’s added in parentheses in the English, and doesn’t appear in the Hebrew at all.
These are the Hebrew words that make up this verse: Shema Yisrael, YHWH Elohaynu, YHWH echad. Shema = hear, or listen, or obey. Elohaynu is the plural possessive form of El, so it means “our God.” Echad = one, or only, or alone.
We can understand the phrase YHWH Elohaynu, YHWH echad to mean “Yahweh our God, Yahweh the one and only.” Without the verb “is,” that is what it would mean. Therefore, from what we’ve seen so far, the entire verse could read, “Listen O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh the only.” That is probably much closer to what Moses meant.
However, it is also just as correct and appropriate to render the word echad as “alone.” At least one source (A Concise Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, by William Holladay) translates YHVH achad as “YHWH alone.” This would render the verse as: “Hear, O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh alone.”
Here are two examples of how echad was translated as “alone.” In 1 Chronicles 29:1, “King David said to all the assembly: ‘My son Solomon, whom alone God has chosen….’”
Isaiah 51:2 demonstrates how echad can be used both ways. Some translations have God saying that He called Abraham alone, and then multiplied him, while others have God saying He called Abraham when he was one, and then multiplied him. It’s the same thought either way in this case.
Recall also that the punctuation was added by the translators. These exclamation points and colons that appear in the translations are not in the Hebrew.
The translations say, “Hear, O Israel.” Then they stop. Then, if we omit the added word “is,” the remainder of the verse makes no sense — it is an incomplete thought. But if we remove the word “is,” and the added punctuation, and utilize our new understanding of some of the words, we are left with this thought: “Listen, O Israel, to Yahweh our El, Yahweh alone”!
If this is what Moses meant, it isn’t a statement about the nature of God at all! It’s a statement that we are to obey our God above all else!
A few weeks ago, some of us visited a Messianic Jewish congregation in Sacramento. Their prayer book showed the Shema very much as we see it in the Interlinear here, with the word “is” in parentheses, and not seen at all in the Hebrew.
I sent the pastor, Mr. Rubinstein, an e-mail afterward. In that letter, among other things, I said this:
I was amazed, and excited, when I read the Shema in your prayer book. For as far back as English language translations go, Deuteronomy 6:4 has been translated, “Hear, O Israel: the LORD your God is one LORD.” This was explained as THE major monotheistic statement of the Jewish or Hebrew faith, and a bulwark against the polytheism of Egypt and Canaan. However, this statement has also been a stumbling block for anyone of the Jewish religion wishing to adopt Christianity, since it states, rather dogmatically, that there is only one YHVH, so therefore it is difficult to accept Yeshua as any kind of God-level being, either before or after His incarnation as a human.
Yet, your prayer book shows another translation of the verse. As I recall, the English interlinear read something like, “Hear, O Israel, the LORD (is) your God, the LORD alone”! The parenthetical “is” can be dropped out as being added by editors, leaving the meaning to be, “Listen, or hearken, to YHVH alone”!This is not the first time I have heard such a possibility. A few year
s ago I ran across this concept in a magazine article, and I was intrigued by the possibility. Now, after a lapse of a few years, I run across another source using this understanding, that Israel is to hear, or listen to, YHVH ONLY — that is, not to listen to or obey other gods!To date, Mr. Rubinstein has not responded to my letter. I may have offended him somehow. I hope not.
To balance out the picture, though, we should consider the quotation of the Shema in Mark 12.Mark 12:28-32 (NASB):
28 And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What commandment is the foremost of all?”
29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord;
30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’
31 “The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
32 And the scribe said to Him, “Right, Teacher, you have truly stated that He is One; and there is no one else besides Him;We can imagine verses 29 and 32 just as easily being translated that God is alone, rather than one, but the fact remains that the word “is” seems to be there in the Greek — “the Lord our God is one Lord,” and “He is One.”
So we may not be able to determine precisely whether the Shema is saying to listen to God alone, or to listen to the one God.
But the main idea is: If the Shema is what stands in the way of accepting a God Family of two or more Beings, perhaps it is the Shema which is being misunderstood, rather than the nature of God.
Finally, we need to see how the Shema fits into context. When taken out of context, it might pass for a statement of belief about the nature of God. But we must always consider what comes before it and after it.
In Deuteronomy chapter 5, Moses is relating the giving of the Ten Commandments. The people were so frightened, they said, in Deuteronomy 5:24-29:
24 “‘Surely [YHVH] our God has shown us His glory and His greatness, and we have heard His voice from the midst of the fire. We have seen this day that God speaks with man; yet he still lives.
25 ‘Now therefore, why should we die? For this great fire will consume us; if we hear the voice of [YHVH] our God anymore, then we shall die.
26 ‘For who is there of all flesh who has heard the voice of the living God speaking from the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 ‘You go near and hear all that [YHVH] our God may say, and tell us all that [YHVH] our God says to you, and we will hear and do it.’”God agreed to that, but He lamented,
29 “Oh, that they had such a heart in them that they would fear Me and always keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them and with their children forever!”
So as we go on into chapter 6, Moses is telling the people, “Here are God’s commandments, and His statutes, and His judgments.” Moses commanded that the people there, and their descendants on into the future, were to hear and obey these commandments. Why? So that it may be well with them! Moses reiterates, “Hear [shema] the LORD [YHVH], and hear Him only!” Then he continues:
Deuteronomy 6:5-25:
5 “You shall love [YHVH] your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.
6 “And these words which I command you today shall be in your heart.
7 “You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up.
8 “You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes.
9 “You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
10 “So it shall be, when [YHVH] your God brings you into the land of which He swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give you large and beautiful cities which you did not build,
11 “houses full of all good things, which you did not fill, hewn-out wells which you did not dig, vineyards and olive trees which you did not plant — when you have eaten and are full —
12 “then beware, lest you forget [YHVH] who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
13 “You shall fear [YHVH] your God and serve Him, and shall take oaths in His name.
14 “You shall not go after other gods, the gods of the peoples who are all around you
15 (for [YHVH] your God is a jealous God among you), lest the anger of [YHVH] your God be aroused against you and destroy you from the face of the earth.
16 “You shall not tempt [YHVH] your God as you tempted Him in Massah.
17 “You shall diligently keep the commandments of [YHVH] your God, His testimonies, and His statutes which He has commanded you.
18 “And you shall do what is right and good in the sight of [YHVH], that it may be well with you, and that you may go in and possess the good land of which [YHVH] swore to your fathers,
19 “to cast out all your enemies from before you, as [YHVH] has spoken.
20 “When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the testimonies, the statutes, and the judgments which [YHVH] our God has commanded you?’
21 “then you shall say to your son: ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Egypt, and [YHVH] brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand;
22 ‘and [YHVH] showed signs and wonders before our eyes, great and severe, against Egypt, Pharaoh, and all his household.
23 ‘Then He brought us out from there, that He might bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers.
24 ‘And [YHVH] commanded us to observe all these statutes, to fear [YHVH] our God, for our good always, that He might preserve us alive, as it is this day.
25 ‘Then it will be righteousness for us, if we are careful to observe all these commandments before [YHVH] our God, as He has commanded us.’”The Shema is not an isolated thought. It is a bridge between what comes before (the laws of God) and what comes after (why Israel should obey the laws of God). The entire passage is centered around hearing and obeying God. Why? So it may be well with us, and our children.
Passover and the Days of Unleavened Bread show us coming out of Egypt, coming out of our bondage to sin and death. Pentecost, and the Shema, show us going in — going into the land promised to our fathers, a land flowing with milk and honey.
If we are careful to observe and diligently keep the commandments of God, it will be well for us, and our children, and it will be righteousness for us, for our good, always.
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,08:08) If the father is named YWVH and the son has his name, YWVH
then even trinititarians would acknowledge two “persons” bearing the name YWVH
Hi MS,
Jesus came in the name of His father and we work in the name of Jesus.
But where does it say Jesus was CALLED by or shared his Father's name?
The angel of the Lord also works in the Father's name.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,09:59) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,08:08) If the father is named YWVH and the son has his name, YWVH
then even trinititarians would acknowledge two “persons” bearing the name YWVH
Hi MS,
Jesus came in the name of His father and we work in the name of Jesus.
But where does it say Jesus was CALLED by or shared his Father's name?
The angel of the Lord also works in the Father's name.
In my above posts I show you where that is found.Hi MS,
You say
“since it states, rather dogmatically, that there is only one YHVH, so therefore it is difficult to accept Yeshua as any kind of God-level being, either before or after His incarnation as a human”Incarnation of God as Jesus is a antichrist doctrine so adds nothing to the argument.
The Monogenes son never had equality with the God Who begat him except the functional equality he was later given by God.
Christ came as a man and God later indwellled him.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,10:41) Hi MS,
You say
“since it states, rather dogmatically, that there is only one YHVH, so therefore it is difficult to accept Yeshua as any kind of God-level being, either before or after His incarnation as a human”Incarnation of God as Jesus is a antichrist doctrine so adds nothing to the argument.
The Monogenes son never had equality with the God Who begat him except the functional equality he was later given by God.
Christ came as a man and God later indwellled him.
First of all I didn't say that, I stated the source.Second of all it is a broad statement of Jesus being “any kind” of God-like. (image of the invisible God) Be fair Nick.
Third of all you have a habit of ignoring the entirety of a message and simply finding a statement you disagree with and then using that as a spring board to denounce the matter as a whole.
Please don't pick apart what you read without at least weighing the evidence as a whole. Look at is as a whole and then make up your mind. We are all fallable men who none of us understand everything 100% accurately.
If any teaching, message, sermon or writing done by a Christian was judged on the standard that if one element is wrong then the matter in totality is wrong as well. Then we could never read, discuss or teach anything to anyone.
Sift out the bad and keep the Good is all I ask.
Hi MS,
Our father God called Himself “I am who am”
The Son never did say that about himself.
But he did say he is the Son of God.Thats because you intepret, as far as I can tell, Jesus to be “new” to the scene in or about 1 AD – 30 AD.
I see Jesus all over the old testament. Most people think they are seeing or hearing the Father when it's actually the son.
A good article explaining my understanding.
Yahweh Is The Prophesied Messianic Ruler Over Israel
Don't various scriptures in Ezekiel show that the prophesied Messianic ruler is both king and shepherd of Israel? Don't other scriptures in Ezekiel show that Yahweh will be the shepherd of his people Israel? Doesn't this imply that Yahweh is indeed the prophesied Messianic ruler in Israel?
There Are TWO Yahwehs And BOTH Are Called Mighty One
Don't some scriptures in Ezekiel say that the prophesied Messianic ruler in Israel will be Yahweh's servant? Seeing that Yahweh is the Messianic ruler in Israel, and the Messianic ruler is Yahweh's servant, isn't it the case that Yahweh will be Mighty One in Israel, and Yahweh's servant – Yahweh – will be the Messianic ruler in Israel? In other words, doesn't Scripture show that there are TWO Yahwehs, with the greater Yahweh being the Most High, and the lesser Yahweh, servant to the greater Yahweh, being the angel of Yahweh, and both Yahwehs separately called Mighty One!
The Mighty One Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob Is The Angel Of Yahweh Called Yahweh
Wasn't the Mighty One of Abraham, the Mighty One of Isaac and the Mighty One of Jacob (Israel) the angel of Yahweh called Yahweh? Isn't this the person whom Jacob called his Mighty One and that of his fathers Abraham and Isaac? Didn't this Mighty One – Yahweh – also appear to Manoah and his wife and show that there indeed exist TWO Yahwehs – TWO persons called Mighty One, with the greater Yahweh superior to the lesser Yahweh, and the lesser Yahweh counselling Manoah to offer sacrifice to the greater Yahweh?
The Messianic Ruler Over Israel Is The Mighty One Of Abraham, Isaac And Jacob
The truth of the matter is that the prophesied Messianic ruler in Israel in none other than the Mighty One of Abraham, the Mighty One of Isaac and the Mighty One of Jacob. He has existed from of old, from everlasting. He was prophesied to come as a human being, born in Bethlehem Ephrathah. He was prophesied to die and his soul to go to Sheol, for a brief period of time, no longer than the time it takes for dead bodies to start decomposing. Yahweh was not to allow his dead body to decompose, and therefore was to raise him to life. He it is who will rule over Israel and shepherd over Israel after he has gathered together Israel from the various nations where Yahweh has scattered them. He is indeed, in human terms, a son of David. He is also a son of Yahweh, seeing that Yahweh clearly prophesied that this Messianic ruler in Israel would be his son and he, Yahweh, would be his father.
The Messianic Ruler Over Israel Has Many Names
Different prophecies call the Messianic ruler in Israel by different names. These include David, Solomon, Shiloh and even Yahweh. Just because he has different names by which he is called does not mean that he is either David the son of Jesse, or Solomon the son of David.
The Messianic Ruler Is The Priest Forever After The Order Of Melchizedek
Yahweh prophesied to the lesser Yahweh that the latter would sit at his right hand. Yahweh also prophesied to the lesser Yahweh that the latter is forever a priest after the order of Melchizedek. The lesser Yahweh is both righteous king and priest, even as Melchizedek was both priest and righteous king. And the lesser Yahweh will be king of Salem (Jerusalem), even as Melchizedek was king of Salem.
What Has Already Been Fulfilled Concerning The Messianic Ruler Over Israel And What Awaits Fulfilment
To the best of my knowledge the lesser Yahweh has indeed come in human form and was born as a son of David, being born in Bethlehem Ephrathah. He faithfully followed and served the greater Yahweh while in his human form. He died as other humans die. His soul, upon his death, went to Sheol for a brief period of time. His body did not decompose, as the greater Yahweh did not allow the body of the lesser Yahweh to decompose. The greater Yahweh raised to life the dead lesser Yahweh, and indeed the lesser Yahweh now sits at the greater Yahweh's right hand, even as the greater Yahweh spoke to him as recorded for us by David the son of Jesse in Psalm 110. True to the greater Yahweh's word the lesser Yahweh is now awaiting the time when the greater Yahweh will put the enemies of the lesser Yahweh at the footstool of the lesser Yahweh. At the greater Yahweh's appointed time the lesser Yahweh will come down to assume his everlasting throne over Israel, and ruling also over the entire world. Even though he will be king ruling from Jerusalem, he will still serve his Mighty One, the greater Yahweh, and will ensure that the people worship the greater Yahweh, even as he counselled Manoah and his wife.
The Messianic Ruler Over Israel Clearly Identified
Having read your writing I know that you reject the lesser Yahweh. For the lesser Yahweh has indeed come in human form and returned to heaven, seated now at the greater Yahweh's right hand. The lesser Yahweh is indeed Yah'shuah the son of Mary of Judah, popularly known as Jesus Christ. Nevertheless, seeing that the scriptures covered above have revealed his identity as the lesser Yahweh, and seeing also that he was indeed the Mighty One of Abraham, the Mighty One of Isaac and the Mighty One of Israel, whom you say is also your Mighty One or Creator, I hope you will reconsider your view and repent.
It Is Not Idolatry To Have The Lesser Yahweh As One's Mighty One, As Abraham, Isaac And Jacob Had
It is not idolatry to have the same Mighty One that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had. They had the lesser Yahweh for their Mighty One, the angel of Yahweh. They also had the greater Yahweh – the Most High – for their Mighty One, whom the lesser Yahweh counsels should be worshipped. The prophet Elijah, that most ardent anti-idolatry prophet, also had the Mighty One of Abraham, Isaac and Israel – Yahweh, for his Mighty One. It is not idolatry to have the lesser Yahweh as one's Mighty One.
Kiss The Son Of Yahweh, Lest He Be Angry And You Perish In The Way
Psalm 2 reads,
2:1Why do the nations rage,
And the peoples plot a vain thing?2:2The kings of the earth take a stand,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against Yahweh, and against his anointed, saying,2:3″Let us break their bonds apart,
And cast away their cords from us.”2:4He who sits in the heavens will laugh.
The Lord will have them in derision.2:5Then he will speak to them in his anger,
And terrify them in his wrath:2:6″Yet I have set my king on my holy hill of Zion.”
2:7I will tell of the decree.
Yahweh said to me, “You are my son.
Today I have become your father.2:8Ask of me, and I will give the nations for your inheritance,
The uttermost parts of the earth for your possession.2:9You shall break them with a rod of iron.
You shall dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”2:10Now therefore be wise, you kings.
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.2:11Serve Yahweh with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.2:12Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
For his wrath will soon be kindled.
Blessed are all those who take refuge in him.Shouldn't we all heed the message in Psalm 2? Shouldn't we stop raging against Yahweh's anointed – Yahweh's son? Shouldn't we be wise and instructed? Shouldn't we serve Yahweh with fear, and rejoice with trembling? Shouldn't we kiss the son of Yahweh, lest he be angry, and we perish? Shouldn't we take refuge in the son of Yahweh, and thereby be blessed?
source:
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,11:43) Thats because you intepret, as far as I can tell, Jesus to be “new” to the scene in or about 1 AD – 30 AD. I see Jesus all over the old testament. Most people think they are seeing or hearing the Father when it's actually the son.
Hi MS,
Folks see all sorts of things that are not written.
What is written is truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,12:09) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,11:43) Thats because you intepret, as far as I can tell, Jesus to be “new” to the scene in or about 1 AD – 30 AD. I see Jesus all over the old testament. Most people think they are seeing or hearing the Father when it's actually the son.
Hi MS,
Folks see all sorts of things that are not written.
What is written is truth.
I have tried to demonstrate many of the places they are written.This is an issue of interpretation NOT an issue of it not being written.
You continue to believe that Jesus was not serious when he said “No man as heard or seen the Father”.
I don't see why the Son would not have the same name as the Father. If your name is Smith then your Son's name is Smith. If someone calls out Smith both will answer. Both have the same name although one being Greater than the other “Honor your Father and mother”.
John 17:11
11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. “Holy Father, keep them in YOUR NAME, which YOU HAVE GIVEN ME, that they may be one, even as we are one.”Says it all for me and clears that scripture up for me. I always wondered about ” keep them in your name, which you have given me” never did understand that. Keep them in the Father's name which you have given me?
Is the Father's name Jesus? NO! What then? Yahweh Of course that is the Father's name and His Son's name. We also are kept in that Name “Yahweh” being also His children. Thanks!!
By what authority will we judge angels?
1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?In who's Name? The Son's Name? The Son's Name is the same as the Father's just as your son has your name.
Thanks MS,
Ken
MS – it will take me some time to digest all that you have given as evidence of your faith, and understanding about the name of God, and his Son. My hubby and I have a weekend off together, so I will be posting my response sometime next week. I know that by then we will have moved on to another topic, but I wanted to acknowledge your massive effort to prove your point. I don't agree with you, but as I read your evidence, I may have questions. Thanks for this great thread! Have a great weekend everyone!
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,12:24) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,12:09) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 31 2007,11:43) Thats because you intepret, as far as I can tell, Jesus to be “new” to the scene in or about 1 AD – 30 AD. I see Jesus all over the old testament. Most people think they are seeing or hearing the Father when it's actually the son.
Hi MS,
Folks see all sorts of things that are not written.
What is written is truth.
I have tried to demonstrate many of the places they are written.This is an issue of interpretation NOT an issue of it not being written.
You continue to believe that Jesus was not serious when he said “No man as heard or seen the Father”.
Hi MS,
I certainly do.
But that gives no one the right to make presumptions and substitute Jesus for God in those circumstances.
To fellowship with the Father and the Son and his body we must abide in the Word of God.[2Jn, 1 jn 1]Quote (kenrch @ Mar. 31 2007,02:55) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 31 2007,02:27) Hi kenrch,
He was reborn of water and the Spirit and he said “Follow Me”
ummmmm. I thought He was born of the Spirit? Wasn't Jehovah His Dady? I thought the only reason He was baptized was to show us the way not to be born again.Did Jesus the only begotten Son of God HAVE to be baptized?
Mat 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
Mat 3:14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
Mat 3:15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he consented.Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Was Jesus born in sin like you and I?
Jesus was born in heaven so some think.
Jesus was born flesh.
Then Jesus was reborn again?
KenrchAmen.
You are right.
This is the Falacy of the heretical doctrines of Arianistic and Henotheistic teachings.
It goes like this.
Jesus Was “Born” (first time) some time back in the future as a Son at which time he was God and in the form of God and then was “Born” (the second time) as a Son in the Flesh at which time he ceased to be god, and then “born” (the third time) again at the Jordan at which time he became like us in every way so that we could follow him.
What foolishness. All in an attempt to make Jesus as a man like we are without Godlike atributes of his own.
Just a puppet on a string, an empty vessel that the Father worked through without any abilities of his own.
They bring this God/Man Jesus who is the Unique Son, down to our image, not honouring him as they honour the Father.
They make him into our image. When he would have us be made into his image, not becoming “deity as he is”, but in sharing of his Divine nature.
Blessings
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